Legend of Grimrock Review

[Baby Tea]

anc[is]

You know, if this game was setup like Diablo (overhead click-smashing), Dragon Age (mobile over-head/-shoulder tactical), or Skyrim (first-person or third person low-tech) I'd probably be all over it. But there's a reason we no longer have grid-based RPGs.

And that reason is...?

The controls suck (I thought that would be clear within context of my saying controls that would work).

No they don't. They are different, certainly. Took me a while to get used to. But 'suck'? No. Not once when playing this have I thought negative thoughts about the control scheme. Just takes getting used to, especially for someone like me who (Like [user]Slycne[/user]) never played this genre before. Beyond that, this game is awesome. Just awesome.

 

[Azuaron]

anc[is]

The controls suck (I thought that would be clear within context of my saying controls that would work).

But they do work. They aren't broke, and the entire point of the game was a return to that style. You just don't like them.

I do not disagree on any individual point. Although, even keeping the grid-based system, their control scheme really could use some work (clicking tiny icons on the portraits to attack? Really? We solved that problem for first-person perspective, multi-person party combat way back in Might in Magic.)

The grid based system is a large element in what makes dungeon crawlers fun.

I'm pretty sure what makes dungeon crawlers fun is crawling dungeons, and all the monster killing, looting, traps disarming, and puzzle solving that entails. The dungeon crawler has always been independent of play style, and has probably ranged through every play style there is (MUD, overhead, first-person, side scroller, grid, mouse controls, keyboard controls, controller, joystick, pen and paper, miniatures wargaming, etc. etc. etc.). Saying the grid system is what makes dungeon crawlers fun is like saying the AK-47 is what makes first-person shooters fun.

The strict and logical rules make the devious puzzles possible and give a nice tactical feel to the combat.

I've played dozens of non-grid games with logical rules, devious puzzles, and tactical combat.

After a while the immersion kicks in, and hopping between squares and 90 degree turns become perfectly normal. It's a system very much tied to the core the genre, and the game wouldn't be as good without it.

The game would be a different game without it, certainly, but unless they "port" the game into a different play style it's impossible to make a comparison. I can, however, look at non-grid dungeon crawlers and say, "Diablo III is pretty fricking fun."

And, thinking about this, I'd probably play the game if it was an overhead view, even keeping the grid system. First-person games in general give a claustrophobic view of the world. Humans have a visual range of ~190 degrees. Combine that with the ability to turn your head and you have around 400. First-person games give you maybe 90 degrees, and grid-based games absolutely kill your ability to "turn your head" easily. I would just as soon play Dark Souls with blinders.

Further, telling me that I have to wait "a while" for the immersion to "kick in" gives me the same kind of shiver I get when someone tells me that my eyes will adjust to the 3D movie after the first half-hour. Maybe I don't want to pay $15 for a half-hour of headache in the theater, thanks, and there's always the chance that my eyes won't adjust at all and I've got a headache through the whole thing.

 

[Skratt]

Good to know that someone who has never played the genre actually enjoys it. I played them when I was younger, but they bore me now, which is a bit disappointing because I remember really enjoying them. Arcana was one of my favorites, but the fog of war mini-map controlled my OCD to the point of scary. Gods how I don't miss that.

 

[Mabster]

The dungeon crawler has always been independent of play style, and has probably ranged through every play style there is (MUD, overhead, first-person, side scroller, grid, mouse controls, keyboard controls, controller, joystick, pen and paper, miniatures wargaming, etc. etc. etc.).

With dungeon crawlers I mean specifically games similar to Dungeon Master (Eye of the Beholder, Captive, Knightmare, Lands of Lore, ect.). They are distinctive enough in their playstyle and feel to deserve their own category, so for me, comparing this to Diablo is just crazy talk. I wasn't actually aware that roguelikes and hack 'n slash games are considered to be in the same category, but then again, there really hasn't been a proper one of these in over 15 years.

Anyway, I still maintain that the gamey and clunky grid mechanic is important for these games.

Further, telling me that I have to wait "a while" for the immersion to "kick in" gives me the same kind of shiver I get when someone tells me that my eyes will adjust to the 3D movie after the first half-hour.

Often games require a moment for players to get familiar with the controls and playstyle. The movement mechanic is pretty much unique to these games, so the fact that it might feel weird for new players doesn't seem surprising to me.

 

[Tiamat666]

I loved Lands of Lore, by far the best of these grid-type RPGs. It's too bad these games have become a casualty of the 3D craze. But great to see an indie team picking up the concept.

 

[JesterRaiin]

(...)Further(...)

Trying to convince die-hard fans of genre that newest (and one of best) addition to their collection is shit. Smooth. Reallllllllly smooth. ;p

I loved Lands of Lore, by far the best of these grid-type RPGs. It's too bad these games have become a casualty of the 3D craze. But great to see an indie team picking up the concept.

Amen to that.
BTW : are you familiar with "Anvil of Dawn" game ?

 

[Azuaron]

(...)Further(...)

Trying to convince die-hard fans of genre that newest (and one of best) addition to their collection is shit. Smooth. Reallllllllly smooth. ;p

I do find it interesting that the best argument to come up against me is, "You get used to it!"

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying Grimrock is bad, not in a million years. It's controls look clunky as Hell, but that doesn't mean it is, as a whole, bad.

I'm saying first-person grid-based games are bad.

...which I suppose through transitive logic means I'm saying Grimrock is bad. But not specifically. I just mean that I have a much broader disdain than this one game.

 

[JesterRaiin]

I'm saying first-person grid-based games are bad.

I understand you, but...
As long as there are people ready to invest time, money and other resources to play such games - no. They aren't bad. Of course you're entitled to have your opinion, but that's nothing else than that. An opinion with (i guess) as many supporters as opponents. ;]

 

[Azuaron]

I'm saying first-person grid-based games are bad.

I understand you, but...
As long as there are people ready to invest time, money and other resources to play such games - no. They aren't bad. Of course you're entitled to have your opinion, but that's nothing else than that. An opinion with (i guess) as many supporters as opponents. ;]

...They aren't bad. Of course you're entitled to have your opinion...

That amount of cognitive dissonance right next to itself just broke my brain.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Could we perhaps stop giving this dude's opinions so much sympathy? Not only are grid-based games not 'bad', they're infinitely better than Diablo, Dragon Age and Skyrim, games which have no tactics or combat strategy, no challenging mind-puzzles, weak and diluted leveling system, and bloated stories with too much talking for very little substance.

Bad controls is not an argument. Some of the best games in history have had bad controls. Anyway, it's irrelevant because Grimrock has good controls. Very good. It feels natural and intuitive using the six directional keys to navigate and turn.

 

[bobstone]

I'm saying first-person grid-based games are bad.

I understand you, but...
As long as there are people ready to invest time, money and other resources to play such games - no. They aren't bad. Of course you're entitled to have your opinion, but that's nothing else than that. An opinion with (i guess) as many supporters as opponents. ;]

...They aren't bad. Of course you're entitled to have your opinion...

That amount of cognitive dissonance right next to itself just broke my brain.

how is it cognitive dissonance

he stated as i read it, that people take time to make it, and people take time to play it, so it just cant be bad out right, however; you can have your own opinion that it is bad, while others have one that says it is good.

if one was to read his sentences and purposefully misconstrue his meaning then yes it might fall under cognitive dissonance. but since the last few posts, he said opinion while you just said bad. so honestly you both seem to be reading in to what ya see to fuel your side.

which tbh I am doing on the side of silly pointless arguments


also grid based rpg attract me because of the map types, in a grid based rpg I typical will have the whole level memorized after a while and can rapidly move cause I know how many times to press left then forward ect... sounds weird, but I am in to that type of thing with games. plus it is very structured in a way that you cant get with an open environment, while a 3d game allows for other things, their are benefits to grid based games.

lastly.
unless you are playing only MW/clones series you have to get used to controls in every game you play, unless you expect me to believe your a master instantly at all control layouts? some of the different control systems took me FOREVER to fully figure out, but in the end it worked better then what I might have assumed to be the best style for a given game... in other cases the controls stank thru and thru.

 

[Tiamat666]

BTW : are you familiar with "Anvil of Dawn" game ?

Oh, now that I see the screenshots, I remember playing it on Dosbox once. It was pretty good and I cleared the first mayor level in some kind of castle. Then probably exams came up and I forgot about it. Would be a nice warm-up to Legend of Grimrock...

 

[Mabster]

meh. if it's anything like the ultima underworld fans said... it probably won't have much replay value after you've beaten. most of the appeal of dungeon crawlers is in the exploration and the sense of mystery surrounding your quest. once you've figured it out, it just gets boring. this need to have more randomly generated parts and item drops like in a rogue-like.

The level editor should be coming at some point [http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2118], so there's a good chance to get loads more content in the future.

I do find it interesting that the best argument to come up against me is, "You get used to it!"

Thank you for the honor, but I recon my best bit was the one about the puzzles and combat. The grid mechanic means the whole game adheres to very clear rules, that obviously limits what it can do, but with these games, it optimizes what they do best.

 

[Pipotchi]

I seem to have hit a bit of a wall with Grimrock (pun intended)

I got to level four and I like the puzzles but I just cant face looking at any more bricks

 

[Atmos Duality]

You know, if this game was setup like Diablo (overhead click-smashing), Dragon Age (mobile over-head/-shoulder tactical), or Skyrim (first-person or third person low-tech) I'd probably be all over it. But there's a reason we no longer have grid-based RPGs.

The only reason I found for the bizarre grid system is that several of the puzzles rely on the controls being limited as they are. It also helps focus the player's attention on wall segments when looking for that last essential hidden switch; exposing the maximum surface area directly to the viewer.

Even so, it's still a bit awkward. Even Might and Magic 7 had essentially full rotational control; you weren't confined to cardinal directions.

 

[JesterRaiin]

That amount of cognitive dissonance right next to itself just broke my brain.

Welcome to my reality. :]

he stated as i read it, that people take time to make it, and people take time to play it, so it just cant be bad out right, however; you can have your own opinion that it is bad, while others have one that says it is good.

All i'm saying is that there's quite big amount of people that simply love such games - so they can't be considered "bad", unless it's his personal opinion (and unless i'm drunk i don't see "imho" anywhere in his posts) ;]

BTW : are you familiar with "Anvil of Dawn" game ?

Oh, now that I see the screenshots, I remember playing it on Dosbox once. It was pretty good and I cleared the first mayor level in some kind of castle. Then probably exams came up and I forgot about it. Would be a nice warm-up to Legend of Grimrock...

To be honest i think that LoG is quite simple game in opposition to big hits of old. ;]

 

[Pigeon_Grenade]

i wonder myself, how long the game Actually is?

 

[suitepee7]

i wonder myself, how long the game Actually is?

i'm a total newcomer to grid-based gameplay, so i might suck in comparison, but it has kept me going for about 4-5 hours, and i'm around halfway. finding and solving all the secrets adds a lot of time to it, and different playstyles will add a couple of replays.

in short, worth the money if you can get into it.

 

[Pigeon_Grenade]

i wonder myself, how long the game Actually is?

i'm a total newcomer to grid-based gameplay, so i might suck in comparison, but it has kept me going for about 4-5 hours, and i'm around halfway. finding and solving all the secrets adds a lot of time to it, and different playstyles will add a couple of replays.

in short, worth the money if you can get into it.

if one Replays the game, does it Randomize the Dungeon?