Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[Colour Scientist]

its hard for me to expand on why (because of forum rules) beyond saying i'm someone who, due to his influence as "a father figure" made an entire street gang "go straight"

That sounds totally plausible.

You know, it's funny how often you make outlandish claims that you conveniently can't back-up because reasons.

 

[freaper]

Masculinity is a construct, so do whatever the hell you want, but don't be a dick to people.

 

[L. Declis]

Snip

Snip

Snip

Snip

Just going to read the title again... Advice for men without fathers? Men... First several comments complains it's not focusing on women enough or it's sexist. Way to derail what can be a nice, blokey exchange of information.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the main topic, here is what I would tell myself and every other boy growing up without a father:

++ You have a responsibility for yourself and your family. It is more than simply being a good man. You must strive to be the best man you can be. Your wife is your partner, your equal, but you had better provide for her if you can.

++ Don't listen to women on how to attract a women. You are going to look for role models. Pick good ones. Men who are strong, but not violent. Emotional, but not whiny. Intelligent, but not a nerd. You will have a massive confidence issue for a long time and no one who can tell you how to fill it. Just do what is right and what you can be proud of. Be the man you'd want your daughter to date.

++ Life is going to shit on you. You won't know how to deal with it properly. Other guys will see their father weather the storm, depend on his family, and slam through the pain rather than break down before it. You're going to have to learn to do that yourself. Remember; what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You were born from men who have fought in wars, the Ice Age, hunted animals bigger than them with a sharp stick, and won. You are the remnant of the best men who managed to survive and raise a good family. Act like it.

++ You will always have a father shaped hole. No one can fill it. If you're lucky, you'll have a big brother or a grandfather or a mentor who will step up. But they will not fit. Deal with it. It won't go away, and it won't get better, but you can move beyond it. Make sure that when you have children, they don't have the same hole you do.

++ Don't be angry. Don't be bitter. Life isn't fair. Get used to it. Sexist to you? Yes. No one cares, and neither should you. Be better. Be more.

++ Do not mistake kindness for weakness. Learn that being a man is being gentle as well as firm.

++ Find someone to help you shave. You will cry because your father wasn't there. Learn it well, because you need to teach your son one day.

++ Spend time with other men. There is a reason why "manly things" are for men. It is how we bond. We are not women. We do not talk the same way, we do not think the same way. Nothing wrong with that, neither is less or more, just different. But your mother will not understand what is wrong with you, and she will not know when you need a kind hand or when to put you on your arse and be put in place until you're smart enough to understand why. Men need men. It's part of our genes. We used to hunt and fight together. Now we play sports, games, Magic the Gathering, whatever. But we need it.

 

[White Lightning]

Honestly, the only thing that she didn't really handle that would have been VERY nice to have the first time was how to (properly) shave. My poor...poor face

I know that feel. Another one is putting on a tie, I had to look that up on YouTube.

 

[Schadrach]

I know that there are more children in the world without fathers than without mothers. However, there seems to be an assumption that there's a direct cause-and-effect relationship between not having a father and being more likely to commit crime. My question is, is lacking a father REALLY the deciding factor here? Because for children who lack a father, or any parent at all, there are generally a lot of other things going on. Children of single parents are typically poorer and have fewer opportunities for enrichment or higher education. They're pressured to enter the workforce sooner to help out with finances. They don't get away from home as often and typically don't have a lot of enriching free-time. They don't get to participate in as many extracurricular activities at school. The parent they do have is more likely to have some kind of problem like addiction or depression.

Children of single mothers generally are worse off than children of single fathers. I suspect this is partly because of what you point out here, coupled with the fact that in order to get primary custody of your children as a man requires either that the mother be dead, exceptionally unfit, or you have to be dramatically more fit to be a parent than the mother. Dramatically.

Or to put it another way, there was a case in my state where a guardian ad litem was appointed while things were sorted out, the guardian's report was absolutely damning towards the mother, and the court still gave shared custody, with an eye towards revisiting it to give her primary custody if she gets treated for her alcoholism and cleans up her act.

On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure. Why is that? If the father figure is somehow the authority which compels children to stay on the straight and narrow, why is this only the case for boys? I understand single dads are much rarer than single mothers, but though I've heard a thousand times how fathers are the force which prevent boys from becoming criminals, I've never heard a correlation drawn between girls and their mothers that has such a profound effect.

By the numbers, boys from single mother households are more likely to end up involved in violent crime (and crime in general) than boys in other family structures or girls in any family structure. Why that is would be interesting to examine, but I'm not just going to make up something that sounds nice from a political perspective.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the lack of a father figure really what causes boys to become criminals, or is it the other circumstances which surround single parents? Poverty is a well-known and documented predictor of crime, and single parents are often poor. Is there truly a correlation between a lack of a father figure and crime at all socio-economic levels? The reason I ask is that the cynical side of me often sees this "boys need father figures so they don't become criminals" argument trotted out by social conservatives who are trying to hammer home the importance of a nuclear family to discredit nontraditional or single-parent families, and to downplay the effect poverty has on crime.

Sons of single mother families are more likely to be criminals than sons of other family structures, after adjusting for socioeconomic level. I think it's silly the way social conservatives try to invoke it though, since it's not nontraditional family structures in general that yield poor outcomes. It's specifically single mother families.

 

[tippy2k2]

Honestly, the only thing that she didn't really handle that would have been VERY nice to have the first time was how to (properly) shave. My poor...poor face

I know that feel. Another one is putting on a tie, I had to look that up on YouTube.

I still need to YouTube it every time I need to put on a tie

Honestly, it's the practical stuff like that that I struggled with growing up. While it could help to have grown up with a Dad, you don't NEED a Dad to be shown how to not be a shitty person.

 

[Veldel]

Hi I grew up without a dad. But considering the kind of person he was I'm glad I didn't have one.

Never did any crimes or drugs. Knew better partly thanks to my mom.

I do know one thing if I ever have a child I plan to give them all the love I never recived.

 

[omega 616]

I think the only issue with not having a dad is, I have no example of what to do when I become one.

My mum did it all, so what is a dad's role in the family? The only thing I can think to do is, toughen them up. I don't mean abusing in anyway, just stuff like holding the kid accountable, my vision of what a man is or what guys really think about girls etc.

I think the mum is more good cop and the dad bad cop. The mum will treat the kid when it's sick and I'll be yelling at the kid for coming home late.

I don't mind being the unlikeable one at this point, that view might mature when I have a kid. I'd rather have the kids respect that it's friendship.

 

[VanQ]

Just going to read the title again... Advice for men without fathers? Men... First several comments complains it's not focusing on women enough or it's sexist. Way to derail what can be a nice, blokey exchange of information.

This is the very same forum where someone once told me that the fact that my sister stripped for cash and that I knew some strippers that were intelligent and using their sexuality to take advantage of men for easy money was "too good to be true for the point I was making."

No, seriously.

Anyways, that aside, your advice is all really good and the kind of advice I'd give my son (If I had one). Especially the advice on not listening to women about what women want in a man. I made that mistake a few times before my dad told me I was an idiot for doing so. And not long after I ended up with my first ever girlfriend.

 

[Booklover13]

I guess what I'm asking is, is the lack of a father figure really what causes boys to become criminals, or is it the other circumstances which surround single parents? Poverty is a well-known and documented predictor of crime, and single parents are often poor. Is there truly a correlation between a lack of a father figure and crime at all socio-economic levels? The reason I ask is that the cynical side of me often sees this "boys need father figures so they don't become criminals" argument trotted out by social conservatives who are trying to hammer home the importance of a nuclear family to discredit nontraditional or single-parent families, and to downplay the effect poverty has on crime.

There was a study done that looking at what not having a father figure does:

http://muhc.ca/newsroom/news/dads-how-important-are-they

It's a good read, and controls for socio-economic levels, granted it does so by using mice....but still I think it is still valid and interesting.

 

[zerragonoss]

Masculinity is a construct, so do whatever the hell you want, but don't be a dick to people.

More than that most "masculine" guys I know do it because they are cowards, they learned to be masculine as they were scared of what would happen if they were not. The funny part about this is being masculine is fundamentally about not caring what others think and not being scared. The sad part is cognitive dissonance is very bad for you.

 

[anthony87]

What about men without mothers?

Ladies, impart your wisdom! ^_^

 

[JoJo]

snip

yeah this whole obsession over "father figures" has always rubbed me the wrong way on some level, like boys need a MAN to show them how to be MEN cause they might turn into criminals or gay...it sort of indirectly condemns non traditional families...though interestingly I doubt many people would be all too worried about a male gay couples ability to raise a girl, but lesbains rasing a boy? a bit of hand wringing and concern I imagine.

basically I feel that sometimes its got a little mysogangy

HOWEVER...

I'm not an expert in the kind of forces with kids psychologically so I'm not going to outright deny there's "stuff" going on here, its just hard for me to understand, Thinking back I don't think I got my ideas about gender from my parents...they were just kinda there

[quote/]On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure.

oh there is...thats where sluts come from, if young girls don't have a patriarchal figure to [strike/]fit on the chastity belt,[/S] oversee their relationships they turn into sluts!

....*blegh*[/quote]

Well, there's good reason to believe that it's healthy for boys to have a positive male influence when growing up. I covered some of psychological aspect in training for a past job and without going into too much detail, essentially boys have an extra developmental stage between the ages of six and twelve where they strongly attach to masculinity and father / older brother / uncle type figures, whilst trying to disassociate from anything perceived feminine. Think of it as the superheroes, pro-wrestling, play-fighting and 'ew girls have cooties' stage. At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, what gets learned is more difficult to unlearn in later life which is a reason domestic violence and abuse often unfortunately run in families.

More generally, I don't know how many people have noticed here given the age demographic of this forum but men and women tend to interact with children differently. Men are much more likely roughhouse play with children which both boys and girls enjoy but especially brings out psychological and physical benefits in boys[footnote]http://psychcentral.com/lib/6-benefits-of-roughhousing-for-kids/0007973[/footnote]. This doesn't necessarily have to be provided by an actual biological father of course, another male relative or close family friend who helps rear the child can suffice.

Anyway, to the OP, try to be your own man. Parenting may be a challenge since you have no role-model to base yourself of, cut your own path but try not to be a 'bad cop' as omega 616 suggests, if your child feels you don't care about them then there's a good chance they'll rebel sooner or later. I've seen this happen with counsellors who boss kids around and then never do anything positive with them, rather than be respected they inevitably end up a target of loathing compared to the 'nice' employees, despite the 'nice' ones enforcing exactly the same rules! The key to disciplining children is to maintain a positive relationship with them, keep enough 'money in the bank' by playing with them and showing them attention that they'll want to listen to you when it really matters.

 

[Hoplon]

snip

yeah this whole obsession over "father figures" has always rubbed me the wrong way on some level, like boys need a MAN to show them how to be MEN cause they might turn into criminals or gay...it sort of indirectly condemns non traditional families...though interestingly I doubt many people would be all too worried about a male gay couples ability to raise a girl, but lesbains rasing a boy? a bit of hand wringing and concern I imagine.

basically I feel that sometimes its got a little mysogangy

HOWEVER...

I'm not an expert in the kind of forces with kids psychologically so I'm not going to outright deny there's "stuff" going on here, its just hard for me to understand, Thinking back I don't think I got my ideas about gender from my parents...they were just kinda there

[quote/]On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure.

oh there is...thats where sluts come from, if young girls don't have a patriarchal figure to [strike/]fit on the chastity belt,[/S] oversee their relationships they turn into sluts!

....*blegh*[/quote]

I've always thought that for boys it's an example, an easy one to follow because you will be in meany ways like them. For girls it was knowing how "real" men should behave in respect to them, which was why the over indulgent parent was just as bad as the absent one. though that really again pertains to both of boys and girls.

Mind you sometimes I think it's more an obsession of children with one absentee parent or another.

 

[gorfias]

Personally, I don't see why having a father matters, so long as there is a stable household with time for the kids. If you've got uncles, or two mothers, or one mother that isn't working all the time. I think there is too much concern over traditional families.

I think you'll need government intervention to make this "stable household". Is it a government priority to socially disenfranchise men?

I've had to tell my boy many times that girls are different and delicate. Behave. My wife could do that too but having her say, "be nice to girls" seems self serving. Coming from a guy? More credible as a statement against interst

 

[Kopikatsu]

If you turn out poorly, you were just a shitty person to begin with. Doesn't really matter what your circumstances growing up were. On the scale of nature vs nurture, I'd say it leans heavily on the nature side of things.

My father threatened to kill my mother if she ever tried to track him down for any reason before running off before I was born. So she tried to get an abortion, and due to a number of complications, I was born regardless, although she liked to regularly remind me that I was never wanted and "I brought you into this world, I can take you out of it whenever I damn well please." She had a drug problem before and after, so I ended up spending most of my time with relatives (who weren't much better on the role model scale. Uncle refused to use safety equipment his entire life and eventually ended up being killed in an accident, aunt had an addiction to surgery and eventually died from heart failure, etc). Relationship with my mother ended at 15 when my grandparents finally realized that maybe she wasn't the best parent and offered for me to stay with them, and when she found out about that offer she stabbed me in the back... literally. With a kitchen knife.

In spite of all that, never did any kind of drugs, didn't get into a gang despite there being a few in the area, don't drink at all, never self-harmed; volunteer at the library, an animal shelter, and work at a national park as a firefighter. I like to think that I've made at least one person's life better by being there for them.

Actually, that is the one piece of advice I would give. The most important thing to civilization is society. You are only one person. But if you can make at least two people's lives better for you having existed, then that's a net gain and something that everyone should strive for.

 

[Loonyyy]

Snip

Snip

Snip

Snip

Just going to read the title again... Advice for men without fathers? Men... First several comments complains it's not focusing on women enough or it's sexist. Way to derail what can be a nice, blokey exchange of information.

And now you can sit right back down. I'm also a bloke. Wanna see my fucking wifebeater? Hell, I'm another child of divorce. You wanna condescend me some more. Right back down.

It don't change the fact that it started off sexist, and in the subsequent posts, got more so. And it's not just because of women. It is sexist towards women when you start talking about lack of a father figure and prostitution etc, but that wasn't what I was concerned with. It's sexist towards men, so pipe down.

This shit about lack of a father and gangs. As I said, the main problem I have with it is that it's asking for this stupid "blokey" exchange. Which is absolute fucking hogwash. To be a good man, you need to be a good person, and a man, whatever form that takes. And that can involve listening to anyone and everyone. There. Fucking done. You don't need anything extra to be a good man. As I said, kids need a stable, loving environment. It doesn't matter who their parents are, it matters that they have a safe environment where they are supported(And of course, kids with same-gendered parents are even more marginalized by this. Oh well, guess they'll never fill that father shaped hole. News flash, that hole is put there when they rip a parent out. It ain't a feature). Hell, you can't even get right that being attracted to women has nothing to do with being a man. What about gay men, or asexual men? What about men who are attracted to men? What about men who aren't domineering assholes, and can stand listening to what women think about their romantic partners? That's what happens when you come at it from this traditionalist, essentialist, retrograde view. You get it all wrong. It doesn't help that your advice there is also sexist hogwash. Although this time you are just shitting on women, so I guess, as one bloke to another, I guess we can give you a pass.

We'll go bond over a shared appreciation of a male activity. How about gay sex. That tends to have fewer women in it. (Sarcasm for those lacking in subtlety).

 

[Phasmal]

Anyways, that aside, your advice is all really good and the kind of advice I'd give my son (If I had one). Especially the advice on not listening to women about what women want in a man. I made that mistake a few times before my dad told me I was an idiot for doing so. And not long after I ended up with my first ever girlfriend.

That was actually the one I didn't get the most. (Besides the father-shaped hole but that's probably just a difference of opinion).

Is it the same the other way around? Should women not listen to men about what men want?
I kinda don't get it, but I've heard this sort of thing before and would appreciate it if someone could clarify it for me.
My advice would probably be listen to everyone and weigh up the most sound advice, no matter what gender the source.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Anyways, that aside, your advice is all really good and the kind of advice I'd give my son (If I had one). Especially the advice on not listening to women about what women want in a man. I made that mistake a few times before my dad told me I was an idiot for doing so. And not long after I ended up with my first ever girlfriend.

That was actually the one I didn't get the most. (Besides the father-shaped hole but that's probably just a difference of opinion).

Is it the same the other way around? Should women not listen to men about what men want?
I kinda don't get it, but I've heard this sort of thing before and would appreciate it if someone could clarify it for me.
My advice would probably be listen to everyone and weigh up the most sound advice, no matter what gender the source.

To me it would seem that it's just worded a bit oddly/badly.

My interpretation of such advice would be not to let someone you view as a potential significant other define you themselves. Not bending to their demands if it drastically changes your personality, or your perceived sense of self. Basically, finding somebody that feels you're fine the way you are. I'm not sure if that really makes any sense though, or if it's just trying to find some sort of positive meaning in there.