Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[Redryhno]

And now you can sit right back down. I'm also a bloke. Wanna see my fucking wifebeater? Hell, I'm another child of divorce. You wanna condescend me some more. Right back down.

It don't change the fact that it started off sexist, and in the subsequent posts, got more so. And it's not just because of women. It is sexist towards women when you start talking about lack of a father figure and prostitution etc, but that wasn't what I was concerned with. It's sexist towards men, so pipe down.

This shit about lack of a father and gangs. As I said, the main problem I have with it is that it's asking for this stupid "blokey" exchange. Which is absolute fucking hogwash. To be a good man, you need to be a good person, and a man, whatever form that takes. And that can involve listening to anyone and everyone. There. Fucking done. You don't need anything extra to be a good man. As I said, kids need a stable, loving environment. It doesn't matter who their parents are, it matters that they have a safe environment where they are supported(And of course, kids with same-gendered parents are even more marginalized by this. Oh well, guess they'll never fill that father shaped hole. News flash, that hole is put there when they rip a parent out. It ain't a feature). Hell, you can't even get right that being attracted to women has nothing to do with being a man. What about gay men, or asexual men? What about men who are attracted to men? What about men who aren't domineering assholes, and can stand listening to what women think about their romantic partners? That's what happens when you come at it from this traditionalist, essentialist, retrograde view. You get it all wrong. It doesn't help that your advice there is also sexist hogwash. Although this time you are just shitting on women, so I guess, as one bloke to another, I guess we can give you a pass.

We'll go bond over a shared appreciation of a male activity. How about gay sex. That tends to have fewer women in it. (Sarcasm for those lacking in subtlety).

So what you're saying is that people in gangs are incapable of being good people? What a bigger load of hogwash. Gangs are not solely evil things, I remember listening to a former gang member come to my school as a kid talking about how it helped him before he left it behind him and that everyone should have the experience of having a support group, peers, superiors, friends, and second family all rolled into one that you can find anytime you need them and for it not to be in any way involved with school.

There's a load of sexist drivel spewed on this site day-in, day-out(towards both men and women whether you believe it or not). Is it really so hard to ask that ONCE a topic that's specifically about sons and father-figures(read the op and not just the title people that keep trying to make this into an attack on non-traditional families.) not devolve into the sexism debate? OT, Gaming, Featured Content, News Room, R&P, hell, even the ADVICE FORUM. I'd bet something around 70% of the topics turn into sexism debates and it really needs to stop. And it is nearly always the same people that start it.

Is it really that hard to ask that people calm down and let it exist the same as any "recommend me an anime" thread that happen at least once a week.(seeing as I've seen people here complain that it's a sexist medium simply for the fact that it is produced in Japan, don't ask me to explain it, I don't understand it either.) Apparently it is.

 

[beastro]

On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure. Why is that? If the father figure is somehow the authority which compels children to stay on the straight and narrow, why is this only the case for boys? I understand single dads are much rarer than single mothers, but though I've heard a thousand times how fathers are the force which prevent boys from becoming criminals, I've never heard a correlation drawn between girls and their mothers that has such a profound effect.

The issue comes down to undirected boys letting their youthful male exuberance get them into trouble that makes bigger headlines than girls, hence more attention.

With that side you are right not also for girls with absent/abusive/neglectful fathers but boys with absent/abusive/neglectful mothers. A lot of focus is spent on the role model the same sex parent plays but the opposite sex parent is often overlooked, especially the impact that parent plays on what kind of person that child grows up to look for in a partner.

Wonder why girls often pick and keep picking abusive men? Wonder why men pick domineering, disrespectful and abusive women? Look no further to what kind of person their father and mother respectfully were like and the imprint they left on their sub-conscious.

So what you're saying is that people in gangs are incapable of being good people? What a bigger load of hogwash. Gangs are not solely evil things, I remember listening to a former gang member come to my school as a kid talking about how it helped him before he left it behind him and that everyone should have the experience of having a support group, peers, superiors, friends, and second family all rolled into one that you can find anytime you need them and for it not to be in any way involved with school.

Go get your male support group from other bands of brothers like sports.

Regardless of the good gangs may do they are essential packs of idle men with strong hints of warrior culture in them and one doesn't have to explain what such packs do when they have nothing else to do, they get into things like crime and territory disputes with other gangs that wind up killing people.

There's a load of sexist drivel spewed on this site day-in, day-out(towards both men and women whether you believe it or not). Is it really so hard to ask that ONCE a topic that's specifically about sons and father-figures(read the op and not just the title people that keep trying to make this into an attack on non-traditional families.) not devolve into the sexism debate? OT, Gaming, Featured Content, News Room, R&P, hell, even the ADVICE FORUM. I'd bet something around 70% of the topics turn into sexism debates and it really needs to stop. And it is nearly always the same people that start it.

The sad fact is that this will eventually produce a huge backlash against inclusiveness.

Instead being respectful and allowing everyone to talk about issues freely (and learning that if the topic doesn't mesh with yours to just politely leave it be), inclusiveness is being distorted into meaning that EVERY subject has to be injected with their own agenda.

It'll reach a saturation point in time and thanks to human nature's love of spite it'll start a backswing of people being assholes in kind leading to a trend in exclusiveness and bigotry.

 

[beastro]

Masculinity is a construct, so do whatever the hell you want, but don't be a dick to people.

More than that most "masculine" guys I know do it because they are cowards, they learned to be masculine as they were scared of what would happen if they were not. The funny part about this is being masculine is fundamentally about not caring what others think and not being scared. The sad part is cognitive dissonance is very bad for you.

I've never heard self-esteem called cognitive dissonance before.

Modern views of masculinity ignore the other side of the masculine count of responsibility and being a provider. The most masculine person in my life I know is my grandfather - when my mother was young and he's do little things taking her to be like having her walk on his feet, check out every room in the house and then tuck her in.

The bluster is insecurity, quiet strength and learning to not be ashamed of being kind and caring in a healthy fatherly manner aren't

 

[beastro]

If you turn out poorly, you were just a shitty person to begin with. Doesn't really matter what your circumstances growing up were. On the scale of nature vs nurture, I'd say it leans heavily on the nature side of things.

All I can say is be vigilant of who you select as a partner.

Don't dismiss nurture completely, it's as foolish as dismissing nature and if you're blind to one you'll find it sneaking up and screwing with your life when you don't realize it.

Regardless, human nature is very insidious, I learned that from dealing with depression.

oh there is...thats where sluts come from, if young girls don't have a patriarchal figure to [strike/]fit on the chastity belt,[/S] oversee their relationships they turn into sluts!

....*blegh*

That's one way to twist it.

The more sensible and less paranoid view is that it predisposes girls to seek positive attention through sex damaging their ability to form close relationships and leaving them open to men who only want to use them.

The other side of the coin is a father figure teaching a girl to respect themselves enough to demand more from a man for her hand than to drop to his knees and open her mouth every time she wants affection and "love" from him.

I've always been at a loss when I read these these kinds of things. They're distorted around when the original intent was for fathers to do their part to help foster strong confident daughters.

We'll go bond over a shared appreciation of a male activity. How about gay sex. That tends to have fewer women in it. (Sarcasm for those lacking in subtlety).

It's not all that far off from many activities in history, but I feel that'll be lost on such posters. The likes of the Sacred Band of Thebes and male initiations in New Guinea of boys performing oral sex on grown men to consume their semen and thus absorb their manliness all revolve around the balance of masculinity staving off effeminacy while being completely homosexual, with plenty of other more minor activities laced through warrior and military cultural being homoerotic.

It's what I find ultimately funny about the modern gay movement and their innate prejudice that gay = effeminate. It always makes me giggle when they look on Ancient Greece as a hallmark of gay tolerance when their whole focus on being as manly as possible to the point where they felt the less time spent around women the better, lest it soften them.

Bring a pack of them in a time travel machine and you'd find them being disgusted as much as the anti-homosexual movement today, only for tolerating such effeminacy and would no doubt look on whole culture, hetero and homo as being "queer and sissy".

 

[zerragonoss]

I've never heard self-esteem called cognitive dissonance before.

Modern views of masculinity ignore the other side of the masculine count of responsibility and being a provider. The most masculine person in my life I know is my grandfather - when my mother was young and he's do little things taking her to be like having her walk on his feet, check out every room in the house and then tuck her in.

The bluster is insecurity, quiet strength and learning to not be ashamed of being kind and caring in a healthy fatherly manner aren't

I have no idea where you get self esteem form acting "masculine" (and I mean acting if you naturally have these "masculine traits" than no problems with me) because you are afraid of what people will do if you don't act that way. While at the same time realizing that masculine means in common parlance, among other things, not being scared of what people think of you.

As for the rest of your post you are right these are good things people should learn, and their is the problem with this thread they are things people should learn, not men, a virtue is a virtue it need not apply more to men than women. So aside for basically just how to shave any worthwhile advice given in the thread has no need to be gender specific.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Reading this thread, my advice for boys and all of my fellow fatherless brethren is to act like a complete dickhead, be as promiscuous as you want and if someone calls you up on it, just blame it on the fact that you've no dad.

People are going to assume that's the reason anyway. XD

Or, you know, just continue on with your normal lives like the normal people you are.

 

[beastro]

Modern views of masculinity ignore the other side of the masculine count of responsibility and being a provider. The most masculine person in my life I know is my grandfather - when my mother was young and he's do little things taking her to be like having her walk on his feet, check out every room in the house and then tuck her in.

The bluster is insecurity, quiet strength and learning to not be ashamed of being kind and caring in a healthy fatherly manner aren't

I have no idea where you get self esteem form acting "masculine" (and I mean acting if you naturally have these "masculine traits" than no problems with me) because you are afraid of what people will do if you don't act that way. While at the same time realizing that masculine means in common parlance, among other things, not being scared of what people think of you. [/quote]

That isn't my definition of masculinity as in my family as whole what you describe, not worrying about what others think about you, is a genderless virtue and we've always admit both genders for being that way (though that ties into us being a very British family).

A good masculine expression of what you describe would be being unafraid of crying around others because there is nothing wrong in a man doing so, and given the taboo around it, has actually come full circle and is now a sign of strength and self-confidence while chest thumping has now become a sign of insecurity.

As for the rest of your post you are right these are good things people should learn, and their is the problem with this thread they are things people should learn, not men, a virtue is a virtue it need not apply more to men than women. So aside for basically just how to shave any worthwhile advice given in the thread has no need to be gender specific.

And yet men and women are different enough that as children we need to be handled differently and cope with our affinities. Neglected boys stand a far, far greater chance of getting into physical trouble because we're lean more in the direction of expressing ourselves through rough housing when young.

A female counter part would be how girls are more psychological when they get out of line causing trouble with words and bullying others on a mental level to a greater degree than boys.

 

[beastro]

Reading this thread, my advice for boys and all of my fellow fatherless brethren is to act like a complete dickhead, be as promiscuous as you want and if someone calls you up on it, just blame it on the fact that you've no dad.

People are going to assume that's the reason anyway. XD

Or, you know, just continue on with your normal lives like the normal people you are.

Sadly not all are so fortunate, but are enough to be aware that something is wrong in their development and they want to find ways to correct it before it goes on to taint their lives and the lives of those around them.

A good baseline for some men is to fight any anger and hatred they may have consciously or unconsciously at their mother for what they did or didn't do during their childhood, either abusing them, feeling they failed to protect them from their abusers or feeling like their mother has been weak leading them to become misogynistic or start to exploit women thinking they can get away with it because their mother allowed it to happen.

This is exactly what happened to my father and uncle and when they married my mother and aunt they simply transferred the loathing they had for their mothers to their wives and expected their wives to submissively take abuse and be neglected because that's how their fathers treated their own wives.

 

[Denamic]

Sometimes, you're better off not having a father. My father was very abusive. Not physically, but verbally. Every day when he got off work, he'd yell at me for anything. If I hadn't done anything, he'd yell at me for something I did last week, last month, or something I could have done. I was bullied at school, too, so coming home and being bullied there too was enough to make me suicidal. The day he was out of my life was the day my life stopped being 100% shit. Fathers are not necessary.

 

[mecegirl]

I have both parents but both of my parents grew up without fathers.

My mom never had a real connection to her father or the concept of one. My grandfather on my mother's side had wild oats to sow apparently. I'm not sure how long my Grandmother and he were together, she had children by more than one man. And my mother has half brothers on her father's side because of his many relationships as well. My mother(and all of us really) saw my grandfather for the first time during his funeral...It was super awkward because none of us were sad. And well, there was the very fact that my mother was in her 30's and yet the first time she sees her father face to face he's in a casket. I'm not even sure why my mom decided to go, but her sister insisted so we went. I remember staring at the casket and thinking of how one of my cousins really looked just like him, but that's about it.

My grandfather on my father's side was killed by a police officer when my dad was a small child. We were lucky enough to get a picture of him from my grandfather's side of the family. My grandmother on my father's side never really talks about her deceased husband, though its not hard to see why all things considered. His mother was always working so he was raised by his older siblings. But my grandfather's death gave my dad both a phobia of cops and a bit of a fatherhood complex. He's a great father imo, though his lectures are intolerable....Guess that's what I get for being raised by a preacher, any chance he gets he'll go on and on and on. Me and my siblings go to our mom with most of our problems, though it often our dad that solves them. We just want to avoid the talking . He's always been very involved in our lives, growing up he'd often be one of the few fathers that showed up for parent teacher meetings and the like. He didn't get to raise my half sister from a previous marriage. I'm not sure why her mother didn't want my father to contact my half sister, but he always sent his support check on time. Once she was old enough she found a way to contact our dad and moved from the west cost to live in the same state as us. She's more of a cousin than a sister to me since we weren't raised together but we get along well, she even calls my mom "mom" most of the time. Her and our dad had a Rocky start because she wanted to know more about why her mom and him split, but he wasn't comfortable talking about it. I don't know if they ever talked about it or if she just agreed to drop the topic but once that was over they started getting along well.

My advice would be to not buy into the negativity surrounding absent fathers. Not having one isn't a guarantee that you won't grow into a responsible adult. Or even a reasonably adjusted person. My mother didn't have hers, she also had a bit of a rocky childhood, but she turned into one of the most loving and patient people I know. She's also really silly and loves to laugh, it's probably why her and my dad got together because he's always cracking (bad)jokes. It is really amazing that she isn't fucked up because some truly fucked shit happened to her as a child. My father's life was more stable because he had older siblings but pretty much he and all of his siblings turned out well. They are all confident an outspoken people. That whole side of my family values each other and are really great at working together because they only survived by relying on each other.

 

[Skatologist]

I personally can't say I've learned anything yet from my father so far as being from the typical family of cishet husband and wife with 3 children.

Could be that I've always mostly kept to myself, as did he.

Anything I learned work-wise was with my grandfather instead.

He does/has been bracing me to face the next few years of my life in terms of independent living, along with what I'm assuming is the ongoing emotional roller-coaster of people in their teens and early twenties.

I'm quite proud that I do not share his outlooks on life though. Just recently he tried to instill into by brother who has a girlfriend now the tired "Women like assholes. They like the guys in the prison where I work" diatribe. He's said some other rather cringe-worthy stuff throughout my life as well, but I don't quite feel like talking about them at this time.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I strongly suspect that there are far more factors involved than simply whether or not one has a father figure. My dad was always traveling for his job, so I spent a fair bit of my childhood on my own, wandering through the forest I lived in. After my parents got divorced, I lived with my aunt, who was always working, so again, I spent most of my time on my own. In high school, I lived with my grandmother, and by that time there wasn't much raising to do. I never had a role model or guide, and I came out okay. I don't feel that my circumstances left me with burdens beyond that which people in more stable family environments endure. I'm happy and content in most circumstances, and I don't need other people to feel so, leaving me free to only spend my time with those whose company I truly enjoy.

I would say that the absence of a positive role model(of any gender) is less of a problem than the inescapable presence of a negative one.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Well, let's see. My father left before I was five, my mother subsequently went through a string of abusive men (fun fact: I once had a simple assault charge filed on my behalf when I was a pre-teen, thanks to a punch from trying to stop my mother from being beaten), and basically went through the majority of my childhood without a "strong father figure". Not only did I never join a gang, but I've never even thrown a punch at anyone; I live by myself, hold down a regular job and otherwise present myself as a believable simulacrum of a well-adjusted human being. Of course, I understand that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but there you have it, for what it's worth.

I understand that I'm probably ruined as a father figure, but as I have zero intention of having children, this is not a problem. (Oh, and I use an electric razor. So unmanly!)

 

[chuckman1]

Go get your male support group from other bands of brothers like sports.

I never joined a gang. When I was 8 I wanted to join the soccer team. But we were too poor and my mom was blind so she couldn't drive anyway.

Most of my friends were from the projects and had mothers who were prostitutes for meth and no Dad. They had it so bad that they stole from me, even after my mom had given them food. We were poor but we were by the projects not IN the projects. I have a good mother and she was able to get us out of the ghetto. Compared to them I had it extremely good. I have to imagine how fucked up their life is now.

My point, kids trapped in the ghetto may not be able to join sports teams. All the males they know may either be criminals or mistreat women. So where can they turn?

 

[Evil Smurf]

Masculinity is a construct, so do whatever the hell you want, but don't be a dick to people.

Yup.

Don't be a bigot, think about other people, don't hold conservative views. They are always narrow minded, hateful, and selfish. #lifehack

 

[Vault101]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

The more sensible and less paranoid view

oh come on...we've all heard the "daddy issues" joke trotted out in IRL and mainstream media...that exact sentiment is most definitely a thing

[quote/]is that it predisposes girls to seek positive attention through sex damaging their ability to form close relationships and leaving them open to men who only want to use them.
The other side of the coin is a father figure teaching a girl to respect themselves enough to demand more from a man for her hand than to drop to his knees and open her mouth every time she wants affection and "love" from him.
[/quote]
so is that essentially the same thing?

obviously people should do what they do for the [b/]right[/b] reasons and seeking validation via sex is perhaps not the healthiest way to go about it (cause there are few things more worthless in this life than the validation of young horny men oh *ZING*!)

but aside from the hypothetical tendency to fall into abusive relationships (and the risks of promiscuous sex) no one should be shamed for the sex they have

[quote/]I've always been at a loss when I read these these kinds of things. They're distorted around when the original intent was for fathers to do their part to help foster strong confident daughters.[/quote]
I'm probably just biased but I've always associated it with that borderline creepy theme where the patriarchal figure basically denies his daughter's sexuality via "cute" jokes and stereotypes like the dad threatening the potential boyfriend and "oh ho! I'll give my son "the talk" but my daughter isn't learning about that till she's 30" ho ho ho!

Is it the same the other way around? Should women not listen to men about what men want?
I kinda don't get it, but I've heard this sort of thing before and would appreciate it if someone could clarify it for me.
My advice would probably be listen to everyone and weigh up the most sound advice, no matter what gender the source.

the general idea is that women "sugar coat" the truth and so you get vague unhelpful advice like "just be yourself" and "be nice"

where as the MAN(tm) way is all about lifting and negging and uhh....I dunno something like that

 

[Redryhno]

Go get your male support group from other bands of brothers like sports.

Regardless of the good gangs may do they are essential packs of idle men with strong hints of warrior culture in them and one doesn't have to explain what such packs do when they have nothing else to do, they get into things like crime and territory disputes with other gangs that wind up killing people.

Who said anything about it being a male support group that the guy was talking about? He was talking about everyone, not just guys. And really? Sports is what you're going to go with?

Did it occur to you that that's not an option to everyone? That people can't afford the gear, can't get to the place it's played, they're not competitive enough or have no interest in sports anyways, or that they're not good enough to play anyways? Sports is an easy one-off answer that doesn't solve much of anything.

 

[VanQ]

Anyways, that aside, your advice is all really good and the kind of advice I'd give my son (If I had one). Especially the advice on not listening to women about what women want in a man. I made that mistake a few times before my dad told me I was an idiot for doing so. And not long after I ended up with my first ever girlfriend.

That was actually the one I didn't get the most. (Besides the father-shaped hole but that's probably just a difference of opinion).

Is it the same the other way around? Should women not listen to men about what men want?
I kinda don't get it, but I've heard this sort of thing before and would appreciate it if someone could clarify it for me.
My advice would probably be listen to everyone and weigh up the most sound advice, no matter what gender the source.

Nah, men do the same thing. They say they want someone kind, attractive and funny with stuff in common with them. When generally they just want someone they can trust and to love them back. As soppy as that sounds, it's true.

Everyone always gives an "ideal" answer. Most women say and think they want to date someone taller than them, when really a short guy could hold them confidently, make them feel gorgeous and wanted and it'd blow her off her feet. The same goes for guys, they all think that they should be making the first move, because they're expected to and generally have to, but a girl that has some agency and asks out a guy will succeed nearly 100% of the time if he doesn't already have his eyes on someone else. Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.

The thing is, we all think what we know ourselves and what we want better than anyone else but that's almost always a product of our culture. I remember reading an article by a female dating coach once where people all said they'd prefer "authentic italian pasta sauce" but when the authentic, watery kind of sauce and a store shelf pre-jarred sauce were presented to them blindly, every person that answered "authentic" said they preferred the less watery sauce.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Of course, I understand that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but there you have it, for what it's worth.

It depends on how you do research. You can do a quantitive research based on numbers and the main goal is to arrive to one answer. A qualitative research method tend to study human behaviour. One technique to get data is to interview subjects and get their personal point of view. That, in turn, can develop new questions for research. The thing with a qualitative research is that you can have multiple answers to draw a bigger picture. So yeah, your anecdote can count if the person doing the research uses this method to gather data.

As for me and the subject of absent fathers, all I can say is that people live things differently. Some with absent parents live a hard life and others live just fine.