LET'S (NOT) RESPECT EACH OTHER?S TASTES (OR: "THIS GAME ISN'T FOR YOU, AND THAT'S (NOT) OKAY")

[McElroy]

Remember when people used to talk about rape culture? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.

Eh, y'know. Here in the civilized Northern Europe -- Finland, in fact -- rape requires violence, threat of violence, or the victim's helplessness (usually means a blackout drunk or otherwise unconscious/immobile person), and statutory rape isn't even written down (such might be a case of sexual abuse or unlawful sex with a minor, or abuse of a position of power like if a teacher sleeps with a student).

Broadening the term is in vogue now, so the parliament is on it one way or another, but it's a mistake in my opinion. Rapists already get off with a year of conditional discharge and paying between 5 and 7 thousand euros to the victim. "Yes means yes" -law brings about extremely difficult cases to prove, and the "new" rapists would get off even easier. People for it bring up that it's sending a message, because most obviously think rape is a big deal, but I think that a narrower definition like we have now is what keeps the heavy connotations of rape and rapists in there. Consent laws are for sexual abuse and rape laws for rape.

Also bestiality is still legal here, lol. Though the thought behind that is solid: anyone engaging in bestiality is most likely unwell themselves.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Yes, didn't I say that there's two extremes here and that I think there's an actual middle ground? Incest should be criminalized, but not as rape, but as it's own type of crime. Not sure what you'd call it, endangering a minor or corrupting a minor? Something like that, not rape.

Blackmailing someone into having sex isn't the same as raping them. Basically, it's either rape and not blackmail or it's blackmail. Blackmail is making someone will themselves to do something over a threat. It's different from actually forcing them to do something irrespective of their will because the person has the option of suffering the consequences and refusing, whereas in a rape situation you take that option from them through force and they literally can't do anything to avoid the sex. It's basically severely worse to actively rob someone of the ability to make the choice than to simply present it.

And yes I said if BOTH people are drunk neither is being malicious, I don't know where you saw me say that if only one person is drunk it's the same as it is with both people. Yet in a lot of these tyrannical systems whoever reports the drunk sex first is a victim of rape.

You do know that jag mentioned incestious pedophilia right? As in sex with someone who is underage? As in statitory rape? You are you going to tell me that sex with someone who is too young to get consent shouldn't be considered rape either?

Say that to someone who was blackmailed into having sex, see what happens. Also, what the fuck are you even talking about? It's not rape because they have the choice to accept the damages? That's like saying it's not rape if you hold a gun to someone's head because they can accept the damages. And even ignoring that, it's not a choice, it's an ultimatum. When you are threatened to do something you are not being threatened with a choice, your choices are being taken away.

Well I clarified I wasn't talking about two people being drunk at the same time, so I don't know why you brought it up. Also, even then, you kinda do say the two are the same. Look.

Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.

Both people having sex because they're too drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Emphasis mine.

Dreiko? You fucking scare me man. You seem to be readily opposed to all but the most narrow definition of rape. If it's pedohilia, it isn't rape. If someone was blackmailed into having sex, it wasn't rape. If you're too drunk to refuse sex it's "organic."

Remember when people used to talk about rape culture Dreiko? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.

I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.


And I don't think rape culture is anything to do with how you define rape, that's just a legal and logical argument. Rape culture is having positive feelings about these acts, not having negative feelings supportive of their criminalization but just wanting to classify them accurately.


I mean, if this is rape culture, you kinda neuter the term because you liken it to actual roaming rape gangs in the Congo which is who actually has a rape culture and sees women as tools for their enjoyment. And I'm supposedly the one who likes being over-dramatic apparently lol.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Remember when people used to talk about rape culture? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.

Eh, y'know. Here in the civilized Northern Europe -- Finland, in fact -- rape requires violence, threat of violence, or the victim's helplessness (usually means a blackout drunk or otherwise unconscious/immobile person), and statutory rape isn't even written down (such might be a case of sexual abuse or unlawful sex with a minor, or abuse of a position of power like if a teacher sleeps with a student).

Broadening the term is in vogue now, so the parliament is on it one way or another, but it's a mistake in my opinion. Rapists already get off with a year of conditional discharge and paying between 5 and 7 thousand euros to the victim. "Yes means yes" -law brings about extremely difficult cases to prove, and the "new" rapists would get off even easier. People for it bring up that it's sending a message, because most obviously think rape is a big deal, but I think that a narrower definition like we have now is what keeps the heavy connotations of rape and rapists in there. Consent laws are for sexual abuse and rape laws for rape.

Also bestiality is still legal here, lol. Though the thought behind that is solid: anyone engaging in bestiality is most likely unwell themselves.

...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.

I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.

Buddy, I don't care how loving your relationship is, but a child cannot love their uncle or father enough to marry them. This "Japan is safer" myth you're trying to prop up because somebody dared criticize a high-school tiddy game is just fucking bonkers.
It's easy to have a low rape rate when parents having sex with their children isn't illegal and forcing a gal to drink alcohol to incapacity and then having your 6 person club gang-rape them doesn't count as rape. https://japantoday.com/category/crime/prosecutors-drop-rape-case-against-6-keio-university-students
So don't try to say "but Japan has lower rape stats" when the government's figuring that the number of people who report even pre-change violent rape to police is in its low single digits. You're comparing murders in a country that only happen on Sunday evening to murders in a country that happen all week.

For fuck's sake, every few months they're busting a rape club in a university for molesting other students, they've got special women only train cars, and they aren't letting this go: https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-japan-rape-cases-no-still-means-no-conviction-and-protests-are-growing

And you're spinning this because, what, random people on a web forum want more fanservice games to not have children in them? That it's super important that these characters remain under 18 (for fans) but that it shouldn't be important that these characters are under 18 (if you don't like it)? Man, just let people not like the thing. I don't need to know that your dad looked at a barely pubescent girl and said "I want to hit that" and it supposedly worked out. That factoid isn't going to stop me from making fun of bizarrely written ecchi games where loans don't exist because nobody is old enough to sign a contract.

 

[Erttheking]

I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.


And I don't think rape culture is anything to do with how you define rape, that's just a legal and logical argument. Rape culture is having positive feelings about these acts, not having negative feelings supportive of their criminalization but just wanting to classify them accurately.


I mean, if this is rape culture, you kinda neuter the term because you liken it to actual roaming rape gangs in the Congo which is who actually has a rape culture and sees women as tools for their enjoyment. And I'm supposedly the one who likes being over-dramatic apparently lol.

Oh my god, I am seeing honest to god pedophilia apologism. And your parents were like that? That...explains a lot. think it can be loving? I...wait, why did you bring this up when we were quite specifically talking about incest? ...Is there something you want to tell us? Sorry, but such a relationship is inherently unbalanced. The concept of age of consent exists for a reason, because we as a collective society decided that there are points where we needed to decidie when a person was too young to consent to having sex. Guess which countries think 13 is ok? Burkina Faso, Comoros, Niger, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and Japan (except not really for Japan. Federally prefectures are ALLOWED to make the age of consent 13, but none of them actually did so and there's not a place in Japan where a preceture went for an age lower than 16) so if your parents were sexually active during the first year of their relationship, it would've been considered statutory rape in every country in the world except 4 3rd world ones. Gives things perspective, don't it? And no, statutory rape exists for a damn good reason, because people below the age of consent cannot adequately give consent. Also because we as a society decided that people who run around having sex with people who are pre-pubescent are most likely sexual predators, because they'd be having sex with adults if they weren't. So hopefully your parents weren't sexually active for the first three years of their relationship, otherwise, your dad was one hell of a creep.

Once we have reached the realm of "hebophellia, aka, sex with 11-14 year olds isn't rape" then no, we are very firmly in the realm of rape culture as there is not a single country on Earth who thinks fucking an eleven-year-old should be legal. And I'll remind you again, we were talking about incest.

Earlier in the thread I said you struck me as the type of person who didn't consider it rape unless it was violent (something that really adds to rape culture here in the states). Your comment on the Congo only further solidifies that point for me. Widen your perspectives a bit, will you? Any situation where a person is forced into sex against their will or where they cannot reliably give consent And do you think there aren't people in the first world who don't view women as tools for their enjoyment? Do you look at the links Jag posts and think that's a phenomenon that only exists in third world countries? It's a mindset that's alive and well in the land of the rising sun, and it'd be nice if you stopped sweeping it under the rug.

 

[McElroy]

...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.

I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.

I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.

Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.

 

[BrawlMan]

...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.

I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.

Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.

I can't believe how derailed this thread has gotten. Sorry gyrobot. My only suggestion is if you do a topic similar to this to lay down some ground rules, and bring in the moderators if no ones listening.

erttheking, as much like you and respect you, you're never gonna win with Dreiko. From what I've seen, he will do anything to defend behavior this is knowingly wrong. He's not worth arguing with or getting in to essay long debates. I've seen y'all do this multiple times.

Dreiko.......there are plenty of stuff I wish I had not read, because now I want nothing to do with you. If you are ever on a topic I created, please be on point or don't bother responding. I prefer if you didn't. What you typed up can't be ignored.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.

I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.

Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.

I can't believe how derailed this thread has gotten. Sorry gyrobot. My only suggestion is if you do a topic similar to this to lay down some ground rules, and bring in the moderators if no ones listening.

erttheking, as much like you and respect you, you're never gonna win with Dreiko. From what I've seen, he will do anything to defend behavior this is knowingly wrong. He's not worth arguing with or getting in to essay long debates. I've seen y'all do this multiple times.

Dreiko.......there are plenty of stuff I wish I had not read, because now I want nothing to do with you. If you are ever on a topic I created, please be on point or don't bother responding. I prefer if you didn't. What you typed up can't be ignored.

Thanks for the input cocage. I can sympathize with Dreiko but I feel any debate involving extremely niche Japanese games will bring out an extremely defensive users no matter where you who would harass and ratio you to oblivion if you. I will keep this in mind when I make another topic to keep it from being derailed. No wonder sites like resetera simply shut debates like this down and ban the creepy posters.

As for Errtheking, I do side with you on this argument but stayed out of it because of my past sympathies for niche stuff from Japan that these days can no longer stomach because of the toxic fanbase that defends the worst points about the game. Still would have liked to see you stayed on the topic if O'Reilly from Nintendo Life was right for insulting Dreiko and Davison's tastes.

And Dreiko, from here on out I want you stay on topic in this debate or stay out of it if you cannot. We have given you an opportunity to debate here that most sites will simply give you the boot for. I get Pete Davison has his fans and probably includes you. But if you cannot be a good representative as seen here, I would rather not have further articles from Moegamer or similar subjects like this being posted. I used to believe how personals opinion was shaped by the opinions of others as funny but now I see their point and fully agree on it. So stay on topic or stay out.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

New article from Pete Davison who goes on his usual tired spiel that got him blacklisted from journalism.

https://moegamer.net/2019/11/14/bullet-girls-phantasia-the-art-of-erotica/

Wow, a 3000 word essay on a budget Japan only game with Asian English options. If you need an essay to argue for erotica in gaming instead of realizing how limp wristed Japanese is with sexual content that they have to use flowerly language to hide it.

The west is not afraid of sex, they are tired of an audience who has a teenager's mentality of what sex and erotic content is supposed to be with an myopic view of sexual content where only girls are featured instead of a pansexual approach towards it like Cockworks did.

 

[CaitSeith]

New article from Pete Davison who goes on his usual tired spiel that got him blacklisted from journalism.

https://moegamer.net/2019/11/14/bullet-girls-phantasia-the-art-of-erotica/

Wow, a 3000 word essay on a budget Japan only game with Asian English options. If you need an essay to argue for erotica in gaming instead of realizing how limp wristed Japanese is with sexual content that they have to use flowerly language to hide it.

The west is not afraid of sex, they are tired of an audience who has a teenager's mentality of what sex and erotic content is supposed to be with an myopic view of sexual content where only girls are featured instead of a pansexual approach towards it like Cockworks did.

Spoiler: I have seen good arguments in favor of good erotic content in videogames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgOgIn3GD08

But this Pete dude, his arguments are rationalizations that leave you with nothing else to say but YIKES!

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

I agree, rationalization for bad games is a common trait found among weebs who support compile heart and low quality Japanese. Like they still believe Japanese Games are being persecuted purely for sexual content.

 

[Jarrito3002]

Ok I have read some interesting points here. Dreiko just wow uhm yeah so the hell and cut to the chase that was a lot of fucked up shit you defended and swept under the rug. Errtheking got to know when to just dip it aint worth it, its just not.

But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.

The "just use a time skip" bit is honestly just me spitballing an idea I had, not an actual Sony-approved compromise plan. I'd be able to make a better argument if I could point to a straight up Gal Gun/Senran Kagura/Gun Gun Pixies style ecchi game that had exclusively adult characters, but far as I know there just *aren't* any. And considering what unacceptable censorship (imagine the world's largest air quotes) looks like, how much more horny did this batch of 14 to 18 year olds need to be? http://kjganime.com/character.html

But like, look at some of the stuff western games with older characters can get up to. Look at horny Dark Souls Code Vein.

 

[Jarrito3002]

But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.

The "just use a time skip" bit is honestly just me spitballing an idea I had, not an actual Sony-approved compromise plan. I'd be able to make a better argument if I could point to a straight up Gal Gun/Senran Kagura/Gun Gun Pixies style ecchi game that had exclusively adult characters, but far as I know there just *aren't* any. And considering what unacceptable censorship (imagine the world's largest air quotes) looks like, how much more horny did this batch of 14 to 18 year olds need to be? http://kjganime.com/character.html

But like, look at some of the stuff western games with older characters can get up to. Look at horny Dark Souls Code Vein.

Its crazy its used to not bother cause I used to be in high school so did not think much of it. Then I looked around and was like damn that is really all there is. Like you may get the occassional milf and mom by accident but its like lewding college age and above just does not work I guess.

Like I pointed out one time that how the Pokemon series has more hot actual milfs than say Dead or Alive where outside the 1000 year old Tengu which is doesn't count everyone knows it the 26 year old is pretty much treated as a grandma.

Question how is Code Vein its decisive but animu Dark Souls might be up my ally. Does it lewd grown ups or does it just continue the high schooling.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Its crazy its used to not bother cause I used to be in high school so did not think much of it. Then I looked around and was like damn that is really all there is. Like you may get the occassional milf and mom by accident but its like lewding college age and above just does not work I guess.

Like I pointed out one time that how the Pokemon series has more hot actual milfs than say Dead or Alive where outside the 1000 year old Tengu which is doesn't count everyone knows it the 26 year old is pretty much treated as a grandma.

Question how is Code Vein its decisive but animu Dark Souls might be up my ally. Does it lewd grown ups or does it just continue the high schooling.

Code Vein is all vampires, but far as I know only like, 1 dude and 1 gal got vamped before adulthood, and they aren't particularly sexed up. Past that, it's all adults. Which makes sense, what with it involving a war.
Mechanics wise it's a little more dodge focused than Bloodborne, and enemies have excellent tracking and hit like a truck, so everything's a bit more of a glass cannon. It's almost an action game like DMC but with a stamina meter.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

And because Pete made a sore point about it. Nintendo Life decided to let him do a freelance review for a budget fanservice escape game and view it as some great victory over Pat and his negative reviews of niche Japanese titles

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/prison_princess

Cue his fanbase of of weebs calling it a victory over a father of children who views reviewing games as work. I am more agitated at his fanbase than him right now. It shows that if you put your mind behind ranting about the current stable of of press for not giving a fanservice laden title a fair shake you can hold them hostage.

 

[CaitSeith]

And because Pete made a sore point about it. Nintendo Life decided to let him do a freelance review for a budget fanservice escape game and view it as some great victory over Pat and his negative reviews of niche Japanese titles

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/prison_princess

Cue his fanbase of of weebs calling it a victory over a father of children who views reviewing games as work. I am more agitated at his fanbase than him right now. It shows that if you put your mind behind ranting about the current stable of of press for not giving a fanservice laden title a fair shake you can hold them hostage.

Meh! Maybe this way he'll get over his persecution complex.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

If I could encourage my rabid fanbase who got into a hissy fit in return for a good review. I would gladly become a freelancer writing about obscure japanese games. This encourages a toxic response from the audie ce instead of realizing their bad tastes and getting better ones