Let's play a game about sex and sexism.

[King Aragorn]

However, the problem here is that if we want to really "put it to the test", correlation will simply not be enough, we'd need to prove a causal link as well.

That doesn't mean I'm pretending the problem doesn't exist; what I'm saying is that we need to first establish just how much of a factor the protagonist's gender is in the process of purchasing decisions. If devs get told by publishers that "Male protagonists sell better", the next logical step would be to do some market research to see to what extent and why.

There were studies and game publishers very likely have various internal studies (and numbers) to base their opinions and decisions on (if this would make them more money, they would do it, since there is nothing they like more than that), the results are pretty much as expected though: http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/10438/article/study-of-box-art-reveals-games-that-feature-non-sexualized-women-on-the-box-don-t-sell-well/

The very few games with female protagonists or characters that sell well are often in proportion to their level of sexualization. Tomb Raider sold a lot because of boobs and ass.

I fail to see any kind of problem here though. It's like most people liking milk chocolate and then there's a small group of other loudmouthed people that don't even like chocolate all that much that assert white chocolate is the superiour chocolate and everyone should like that more and there should generally be less milk chocolate in favor of that. Or action/superhero movies doing extremely well, but there being a group of people that suggest romantic comedies are the superior movie type that everybody should be seeing instead and you better turn all those action movies into romantic comedies (despite them having a lot less appeal on a large part of the main audience and them generally doing magnitudes worse at the box office because a lot of people simply don't want to see them).

Then there's the seemingly incessant bitching whenever there is a female character somewhere somehow involved that she isn't the most perfect thing on gods green earth and incarnation of perfection by some sort of universal standard, whether its some supposed "rape" scene in the newest Tomb Raider.
The size of a characters breasts, despite not knowing anything about characterization or context, that apparently needs to be changed to appease the feminists:

Or whenever there's violence against female characters, an outcry doesn't seem to be far behind, because that's apparently equality or something: http://www.gamespot.com/news/god-of-war-dev-pulled-back-from-violence-against-women-6388007
http://www.awesomeoutof10.com/discussion/war-games-god-of-wars-woman-hating-ways/

It's just not worth all the trouble and stupid press about it especially when it proves to also decrease sales on top of it, nobody would go and question a male character, no matter how bulky or exaggerated he looks, what he wears, what personality he has or what stupidity would come from his mouth, how many people he kills or how violent he maims and minces his opponents.

I whole heatedly agree with this. Simply put, there is no way to please anyone. I specially want to highlight the Elizabeth ordeal.
People, in no way, shape or form knew much about the character. Simply her looks, and the complaining begun. I honestly never understood what's wrong with just some sexualization, I mean, people see cleavage every day. So it's nothing out of the ordinary. *Note: but by that, I do not mean sex being thrown at my face every 5 minutes, no.* Hell, her old design WAS legitimately a great design, even if it had some cleavage. I loved the blue dress/coat thing she had going on.

Also, I must also highlight how they claim they want equality when it comes to games, but in reality, they just want goddesses as playable characters/NPC's. But, I must ask, what do you exactly mean with the part about rape? I don't quite see how that connects to being perfect, unless I misunderstood.

 

[Phasmal]

What's the point of this thread?
Because all I'm getting is `Yeah, ladies, your games don't sell so just shut up!`.

Perhaps I am being too jaded here, but it's a sentiment I've heard too many times before.

Do games with female leads sell less because they are marketed less or are they marketed less because they sell less?

Either way, it's bloody ridiculous to try and focus an entire medium at one demographic, imo, and hopefully something gaming can grow out of.
Maybe if we had a more accepting community there'd be more female players about and having their voices heard. God knows I know too many women who just threw the towel in because it wasn't worth it.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

So i'm the only one who wanted Sarah Kerrigan to steal one last kiss before flying away at the end of HoS? D: that would have been so beautiful

Also.. starcraft heart of the swarm which is completely centered around a female protagonist who is badass and actiony as fuck, yet still has several intimate moments with her male love interest, and still displays vulnerability and real human emotion -not like femshep with that damn im just gonna act like a stupid generic jock guy, except with a vagina because women can be stupid and brutish too-... umm anyway 1.1 million copies in first 2 days i think its north of 2 million now, plus 1 million streamers for the launch broadcast and was received quite lovely from a gender equality perspective. The majority of story-related criticism are about why certain things aren't fully explained (like mengsk having the artifact) and having nothing to do with gender.

So fantastic female protagonist, that does the stuff they said female protagonists arent supposed to do and it sold well... tho starcraft might be a terrible example because of its prominence as an esport means story is largely irrelevant to sales. Though maybe the lesson is you can make the story about whatever the fuck you want as long as your game is so damn fun to play people are going to buy it regardless.

People are actually studying professional whining/bitching about video games and wasting grant money on that instead of doing something productive.

And who are you to say it isn't productive to study the gender structures of gaming and game design? Considering the earlier portion of your post I'd even go as far as to say that your obvious negative bias against gender analysis makes you hilariously unqualified to determine if these kinds of analysis and inspection of games is productive.

You see, some people, somewhere obviously thought that this was interesting/important enough to grant the money (hence the term "grant money") to allow for these kinds of studies. Unless they are taking the money directly out of your pocket, you are also in no position to determine whatever that money is being well spent or not.

The vast majority of grant money is derived from government grants (especially for gender studies, as business has little interest in it). Government is funded by taxes. Taxes are taken directly out of your pocket. Therefore this person, based on your criteria is in a position to determine whether that money is being well spent or not.

Also academic government grants aren't given based on the potential of the study/work to prove useful they're given based on whether or not the study would be possible without financial assistance and whether or not those preforming the study will use those funds effectively (for whatever the goal of their study is).

I'm actually fairly certain it's actually illegal for a government official to deny grants based on whether or not they think the study being conducted is interesting/important. Grants are more of a way to encourage and enable education, not accomplish anything useful (the premise being that investing in education will make more productive people in the long run),

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Female lead games get less than half the marketing than male lead games do and probably less development money. If you think this doesn't matter look at Okami or Psychonauts.

I think the reason why we are so critical of female characters is because we want to tell developers what we actually want. It's constructive criticism, we are trying to help. Maybe if you are unhappy with male characters you should do that too. Elizabeth of BI is wonderful btw I think she's great.

I'm kind of tired of people telling me I'm not allowed to have a voice because I'm not a majority in a subject. That smacks a lot of the excuses used when they wouldn't let women vote. Women aren't interested in politics why should we let them vote? Why the fuck do you think they aren't interested in politics dumbass.

Sometimes this whole subject just makes me want to travel to Japan and utilize that table flipping arcade game.

And roflcake at linking Tomb Raiders sales figures it's been out all of a few weeks...

 

[Jiefu]

Snip Snip Kerrigan Snip

Kerrigan is a terrible character, although that's wholly unrelated to her status as female (Raynor in SC2 is also terrible, and probably even slightly worse, given that Kerrigan never swore to kill Kerrigan and then backed out and kissed Kerrigan). Of course, HotS shows us that it's entirely possible to have a required-to-be-female character and succeed.

 

[CloudAtlas]

If they actually cared about character writing and storytelling in general, they would complain about that (...) and not specific parts of it that fit in their agendas. More often than not it seems to flow directly into borderline psychopathic militant "social justice" ramblings about "evil patriarchy" in one way or another, demanding that every little aspect of the game pander to them. (...)

People are actually studying professional whining/bitching about video games and wasting grant money on that instead of doing something productive.

Look at your own language. You're "whining/bitching" every bit as much as those you complain about. Why do you get so defensive if people who want games to match their tastes too? They (like Moonlight Butterfly above, or me) have the same right to make their voices heard as you do. And, I don't know, doesn't feel like wishing for good, non-sexualized female characters is not legit, you know. Certainly not less so than the other way round...

And who are you to say it isn't productive to study the gender structures of gaming and game design? Considering the earlier portion of your post I'd even go as far as to say that your obvious negative bias against gender analysis makes you hilariously unqualified to determine if these kinds of analysis and inspection of games is productive.

Well put.

 

[ThisGuyLikesNoTacos]

Vanquish has a brown haired man as its protagonist, received a lot of praise from both reviewers and players, and still flopped with nothing more than 0.89 million copies sold. It is now over two years old.

I don't know why did this happen, but I am rather sure it's somehow connected to the weak sales of the 'Female Dominated Games' you listed. The answer can't be that simple.

Weighting on the 'bitching when a female character is in a game', I expect it will eventually go away after we have more identifiable female characters on the market.[footnote]Yeah, I'm boring like that.[/footnote]

As of right now, I don't think resisting will make the complaining disappear, instead I think it will only increase the aggressiveness of the complaints. This is nothing else but a natural growth caused by the increased popularity of gaming. Acting as a brake will only continue to do self-harm.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

Snip Snip Kerrigan Snip

Kerrigan is a terrible character, although that's wholly unrelated to her status as female (Raynor in SC2 is also terrible, and probably even slightly worse, given that Kerrigan never swore to kill Kerrigan and then backed out and kissed Kerrigan). Of course, HotS shows us that it's entirely possible to have a required-to-be-female character and succeed.

Kerrigan didn't swear to kill kerrigan, and then kissed kerrigan? Que?

If you were trying to say Raynor swore TO kill Kerrigan and then didnt i think you may have missed the end of WoL

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

What's the point of this thread?
Because all I'm getting is `Yeah, ladies, your games don't sell so just shut up!`.

Perhaps I am being too jaded here, but it's a sentiment I've heard too many times before.

Do games with female leads sell less because they are marketed less or are they marketed less because they sell less?

Either way, it's bloody ridiculous to try and focus an entire medium at one demographic, imo, and hopefully something gaming can grow out of.
Maybe if we had a more accepting community there'd be more female players about and having their voices heard. God knows I know too many women who just threw the towel in because it wasn't worth it.

Personally, I hope they were going for a 'it's not just the industry, it's gamers as a whole who are sexist, since you're not buying the female leads' but I'm not holding my breath over it. I really don't see how fewer sales indicate that sexism doesn't exist...because if people aren't buying games with female leads, if feminine games aren't marketed, or if no-one is even making good games with female leads, then I'd say we've got a much, much bigger sexism problem on our hands. Because then it wouldn't just be a couple of white-haired CEO's holding the industy back, it would be everywhere...like say, in movies...or in job-opportunities...or in casual remarks on a daily basis. -.-'

 

[UberPubert]

I'm kind of tired of people telling me I'm not allowed to have a voice because I'm not a majority in a subject. That smacks a lot of the excuses used when they wouldn't let women vote. Women aren't interested in politics why should we let them vote? Why the fuck do you think they aren't interested in politics dumbass.

I don't think anyone's calling for dissenters on the matter to be silenced, just insisting that their opinions don't matter because they don't conform to the majority, and it just so happens that the video game market does not exist to pander to minority demographics, or to advance a political agenda, or champion equal rights: They exist to make money, and the money is with the masses.

If gamers - female or otherwise - showed the industry they wanted a change in characters or protagonists by blowing up the sales charts with staggering profits, every publisher would be clamoring for their developers to follow suit. It's not about sex or sex politics, it's about money. Short brown-haired and blue-eyed gruff twenty something white male protagonists are a carefully calculated marketing decision, not an ethically uneasy artistic choice made by an archaic old boys club to keep the women down.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I'm kind of tired of people telling me I'm not allowed to have a voice because I'm not a majority in a subject. That smacks a lot of the excuses used when they wouldn't let women vote. Women aren't interested in politics why should we let them vote? Why the fuck do you think they aren't interested in politics dumbass.

I don't think anyone's calling for dissenters on the matter to be silenced, just insisting that their opinions don't matter because they don't conform to the majority, and it just so happens that the video game market does not exist to pander to minority demographics, or to advance a political agenda, or champion equal rights: They exist to make money, and the money is with the masses.

If gamers - female or otherwise - showed the industry they wanted a change in characters or protagonists by blowing up the sales charts with staggering profits, ever publisher would be clamoring for their developers to follow suit. It's not about sex or sex politics, it's about money. Short brown-haired and blue-eyed gruff twenty something white male protagonists are a carefully calculated marketing decision, not an ethically uneasy artistic choice made by an archaic old boys club to keep the women down.

Well you see we are telling them but when we try we get shouted down. Voting with our wallets doesn't work in this case. What the fuck are we going to play in the meantime.

It's like locking someone in a room and giving them only oranges to eat. Then saying 'Oh you don't like the oranges? Eat apples then!'

-.-

Unless we complain about it the devs aren't going to know and if they don't know then this 'Boys only play video games we shall have a boy protagonist!' crap will not change. So stop telling us to shut up.

You not think maybe if they try to appeal to female gamers just a little bit then female gamers will spend more money on games? That's how it works right?

'The survey revealed that women spend more than 70 per cent of consumer dollars worldwide' 2011 Financial Times.

Guess they don't want any of that though huh.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

If gamers - female or otherwise - showed the industry they wanted a change in characters or protagonists by blowing up the sales charts with staggering profits, ever publisher would be clamoring for their developers to follow suit. It's not about sex or sex politics, it's about money. Short brown-haired and blue-eyed gruff twenty something white male protagonists are a carefully calculated marketing decision, not an ethically uneasy artistic choice made by an archaic old boys club to keep the women down.

Obviously, this is why EA is still getting away with publishing half-finished DMR games.

Look, it's a bit difficult to say 'I will ONLY buy a game with a female protagonist since this is what I want from the industry', because there isn't that big of a choice, is there? Should I wait a year-and-a-half to buy a game that was made haphazardly and is totally not my genre JUST because there's a woman in it? No. Should I miss out on a good game that I like JUST because there's a man in it? No. Would I like to see a more balanced percentage when it comes to gender in games? Yes, I would.

How am I supposed to vote with my wallet when there isn't much to vote for?

 

[UberPubert]

Well you see we are telling them but when we try we get shouted down. Voting with our wallets doesn't work in this case. What the fuck are we going to play in the meantime.

It's like locking someone in a room and giving them only oranges to eat. Then saying 'Oh you don't like the oranges don't eat them then!'

-.-

Unless we complain about it the devs aren't going to know and if they don't know then this 'Boys only play video games we shall have a boy protagonist!' crap will not change. So stop telling us to shut up.

Hey now, I don't want anyone to shut up. Nothing productive happens in a vacuum.

But the devs do know, and in fact, devs trying to get female characters in leading roles or even on box art and getting shut down by publishers has made some controversy very recently. And there are games with female protagonists and just good female characters in general; any gamer worth their salt can name just a few off-hand, never mind someone who actively follows these kind of things.

So you have developers who know what a demographic wants, and other developers who are already producing it. They have their problems and I'm sure people want more titles to choose from, but it's not just oranges up in here.

captcha: face the music

 

[Legion]

I am just goin to leave this [http://www.themarysue.com/for-they-are-weary-of-space-marines-why-some-men-are-playing-women-and-why-game-developers-should-take-note/] here. Apparently over 37% of male gamers said they play a female character "most of the time" if given a choice, as compared to 34% of male gamers saying they played a male character "most of the time". So given a choice, a majority of male gamers will play a female character, according to that study.

That's an informal, opt-in survey though - it probably attracted more guys who were specifically interested in the issue. That only 18% of ME3 players who used femShep (including female players) would suggest that that 37% is artificially high.

That survey is also opt-in. If you don't play online or register your game with EA, your data would not be included. If you play the game a second time as a different gender, the data is then skewed. If you play it five times as one gender, and once as the other, it's not accurate.

The data provided for who did what is not particularly accurate in itself.

Unless we complain about it the devs aren't going to know.

A valid point, but this site isn't going to change anything, because it's not a website for developers or publishers. The places to get your voice heard if your intention is to change things are the forums for the developers/publishers themselves.

Obviously I am not suggesting people shouldn't discuss it here if they want to, but it's not the kind of place to bring it up if your intention is to convince the people who actually make games to change their stance. This is a place largely the for consumers of the games industry, not the creators of it.

Posting on here is like talking to a co-worker about how feel you deserve a pay rise, rather than talking to your boss about it. It's good to discuss it, but it's not going to change anything.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Well you see we are telling them but when we try we get shouted down. Voting with our wallets doesn't work in this case. What the fuck are we going to play in the meantime.

It's like locking someone in a room and giving them only oranges to eat. Then saying 'Oh you don't like the oranges don't eat them then!'

-.-

Unless we complain about it the devs aren't going to know and if they don't know then this 'Boys only play video games we shall have a boy protagonist!' crap will not change. So stop telling us to shut up.

Hey now, I don't want anyone to shut up. Nothing productive happens in a vacuum.

But the devs do know, and in fact, devs trying to get female characters in leading roles or even on box art and getting shut down by publishers has made some controversy very recently. And there are games with female protagonists and just good female characters in general; any gamer worth their salt can name just a few off-hand, never mind someone who actively follows these kind of things.

So you have developers who know what a demographic wants, and other developers who are already producing it. They have their problems and I'm sure people want more titles to choose from, but it's not just oranges up in here.

captcha: face the music

I;m not saying there aren't any female lead games I'm saying there's not enough to allow me to 'vote with my wallet' since I could buy every female lead game there is and it wouldn't even show next to the male lead ones. It's not like there's a fifty fifty split.

 

[UberPubert]

Obviously, this is why EA is still getting away with publishing half-finished DMR games.

Look, it's a bit difficult to say 'I will ONLY buy a game with a female protagonist since this is what I want from the industry', because there isn't that big of a choice, is there? Should I wait a year-and-a-half to buy a game that was made haphazardly and is totally not my genre JUST because there's a woman in it? No. Should I miss out on a good game that I like JUST because there's a man in it? No. Would I like to see a more balanced percentage when it comes to gender in games? Yes, I would.

How am I supposed to vote with my wallet when there isn't much to vote for?

Short answer: Very carefully.

Long answer: When looking at it from a buyer's perspective the prospect does appear rather harrowing but you have to realize that's how market research works. Publishers only see numbers, that's their job and it's how they stay in business, otherwise as you mentioned EA would be a flaming husk by now. After all, people have been complaining about their business practices for years - something that directly affects their profit margin - and they've still weighed in at net gains against massive PR backlash and outcry from gamers because the people who criticize EA the most and boycott their games or buy from other publishers still aren't their majority customers, and the same rules apply here.

captcha: believe me

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Female lead games get less than half the marketing than male lead games do and probably less development money. If you think this doesn't matter look at Okami or Psychonauts.

I think the reason why we are so critical of female characters is because we want to tell developers what we actually want. It's constructive criticism, we are trying to help. Maybe if you are unhappy with male characters you should do that too. Elizabeth of BI is wonderful btw I think she's great.

I'm kind of tired of people telling me I'm not allowed to have a voice because I'm not a majority in a subject. That smacks a lot of the excuses used when they wouldn't let women vote. Women aren't interested in politics why should we let them vote? Why the fuck do you think they aren't interested in politics dumbass.

Sometimes this whole subject just makes me want to travel to Japan and utilize that table flipping arcade game.

And roflcake at linking Tomb Raiders sales figures it's been out all of a few weeks...

It's funny, because according to Eidos' financial report Tomb Raider: Legend sold 4.5 million copies in total. Also, I am getting pretty sick and tired of people bringing up that 'only' 18% wanted Femshep. Seriously, that's one in five gamers...That's higher than the percentage of Atheists in the USA. Does that mean that we shouldn't listen to Atheists because it's 'only' 16% percent?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I was speaking more in general but I do think that devs are aware of the overall tone of the community. They are still human. It's like saying your teacher never goes on facebook or something.

I do try and get involved where I can like kickstarter projects and twitter but even there people complain if you say anything or make threads to do with gender.

There's definitely a kneejerk reaction to feminism.