Let's play a game about sex and sexism.

Kopikatsu

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
UberPubert said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Could you put that last part a little more clearly I'm slightly confused about what you mean?

I mean 'we' as in society since you guys are sitting hear defending the publishers choices and everything. I think kickstarter will make us see an improvement but it will be slow and gradual and more input in the mean time won't hurt.

I know animal crossing new leaf sold a massive amount of 3ds' to women recently in so there is definitely a market there if they know how to appeal to it.
I'd just like to say "we", and "you guys" are just a couple of incorrect generalizations, I'm not on anybody's side here.

And I'm not defending publisher decisions on any other grounds than business sense, in this one particular case, and only against the accusation of them being somehow ideologically motivated to keep female protagonists out of games.

And I really don't think touting the sales numbers on a handheld "social simulation game" is the best case for getting more women in our shoot-em-ups and devil may cries of war.
Just showing that women are willing to spend money on games. Also did you see the sales figures for Skyrim I bet my hat that's because it's gender neutral along with Fallout.

I don't think anyone is keeping women out of games because they hate women. But they are doing it deliberately because they think they can't sell games like shooters to a female market.
I'm pretty sure that Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV sold well because they're first person, open world, exploration dealies and part of a previously established, successful franchise in both cases. Those seem to be really popular for reasons that are completely beyond me.

Can they sell games like shooters to a female market? Rather, can they match the sales figures of a male dominated game in that genre? If not, how could you possibly expect a publisher to even remotely care? I'm Hispanic, but I can't even think of the last game that had a Hispanic protagonist. I'm still perfectly content with running around as Booker, Lee, or Lara Croft.

Keep in mind that production values and development times for games are so long that a single bad showing can sink an entire developer, or cause a publisher to drop them. If the market simply doesn't exist for games with a 'strong' female character and belief to the contrary is only conformation bias, then what exactly is the message? That men and women should be willing to risk their jobs, their livelihood to try and fix a perceived social injustice, which will likely be met with rejection and scorn anyway? Look at the controversy surrounding any female character or anything relating to women in video games in the last...what? Five years? How can you even justify having a female character in any role when it results in something like that?

The main point the gaming community seems to be pushing is 'Just ignore women entirely, because otherwise we will sink you.'
 

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
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Kopikatsu said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
UberPubert said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Could you put that last part a little more clearly I'm slightly confused about what you mean?

I mean 'we' as in society since you guys are sitting hear defending the publishers choices and everything. I think kickstarter will make us see an improvement but it will be slow and gradual and more input in the mean time won't hurt.

I know animal crossing new leaf sold a massive amount of 3ds' to women recently in so there is definitely a market there if they know how to appeal to it.
I'd just like to say "we", and "you guys" are just a couple of incorrect generalizations, I'm not on anybody's side here.

And I'm not defending publisher decisions on any other grounds than business sense, in this one particular case, and only against the accusation of them being somehow ideologically motivated to keep female protagonists out of games.

And I really don't think touting the sales numbers on a handheld "social simulation game" is the best case for getting more women in our shoot-em-ups and devil may cries of war.
Just showing that women are willing to spend money on games. Also did you see the sales figures for Skyrim I bet my hat that's because it's gender neutral along with Fallout.

I don't think anyone is keeping women out of games because they hate women. But they are doing it deliberately because they think they can't sell games like shooters to a female market.
I'm pretty sure that Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV sold well because they're first person, open world, exploration dealies and part of a previously established, successful franchise in both cases. Those seem to be really popular for reasons that are completely beyond me.

Can they sell games like shooters to a female market? Rather, can they match the sales figures of a male dominated game in that genre? If not, how could you possibly expect a publisher to even remotely care? I'm Hispanic, but I can't even think of the last game that had a Hispanic protagonist. I'm still perfectly content with running around as Booker, Lee, or Lara Croft.

Keep in mind that production values and development times for games are so long that a single bad showing can sink an entire developer, or cause a publisher to drop them. If the market simply doesn't exist for games with a 'strong' female character and belief to the contrary is only conformation bias, then what exactly is the message? That men and women should be willing to risk their jobs, their livelihood to try and fix a perceived social injustice, which will likely be met with rejection and scorn anyway? Look at the controversy surrounding any female character or anything relating to women in video games in the last...what? Five years? How can you even justify having a female character in any role when it results in something like that?

The main point the gaming community seems to be pushing is 'Just ignore women entirely, because otherwise we will sink you.'
I'm sure people made the same argument back when they didn't let women publish books...Frankly if you think a little internet criticism is going to destroy gaming just look at EA...

Ken Levine said they dropped an Infinate cover because women said it offended them and the one they chose was a happy medium between pandering to the COD bros and not making women feel uncomfortable.

I'm happy with that. I'm happy with men looking at things they are developing and saying no that's not okay and coming up with something better. I don't expect them to be perfect. Elizabeth and Lara are a good example of the direction female characters need to go in. So we are getting there slowly but surely.

I want to give you an example from comic books. An artist was told by a publisher to make his woman only Xmen book 'sexy' and he managed to dissuade them because he said 'If I do that the whole internet is going to laugh at us'

So the 'whining' can make a difference. I for one am not going to shut up.
 

CaptainChip

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Ken Levine said they dropped an Infinate cover because women said it offended them and the one they chose was a happy medium between pandering to the COD bros and not making women feel uncomfortable.
I would like to know where you got the underlined part from. Last I checked, it was only to appeal to the Frat boy audience. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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CaptainChip said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Ken Levine said they dropped an Infinate cover because women said it offended them and the one they chose was a happy medium between pandering to the COD bros and not making women feel uncomfortable.
I would like to know where you got the underlined part from. Last I checked, it was only to appeal to the Frat boy audience. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/
Erm that wasn't the one I was talking about?

http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=757

:/ That's the one they dropped from consideration.

?While it tested well with the general male demographic, we found that many women were turned off by the cover,? says Levine when asked about the original cover, ?The response was so horrendous that we left it off the reversible cover poll.?
 

CaptainChip

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
CaptainChip said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Ken Levine said they dropped an Infinate cover because women said it offended them and the one they chose was a happy medium between pandering to the COD bros and not making women feel uncomfortable.
I would like to know where you got the underlined part from. Last I checked, it was only to appeal to the Frat boy audience. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/
Erm that wasn't the one I was talking about?

http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=757

:/ That's the one they dropped from consideration.

?While it tested well with the general male demographic, we found that many women were turned off by the cover,? says Levine when asked about the original cover, ?The response was so horrendous that we left it off the reversible cover poll.?
You might want to take a look at the other articles on that website.

http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1666
http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1622
http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1607

It's a satire site.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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CaptainChip said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
CaptainChip said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Ken Levine said they dropped an Infinate cover because women said it offended them and the one they chose was a happy medium between pandering to the COD bros and not making women feel uncomfortable.
I would like to know where you got the underlined part from. Last I checked, it was only to appeal to the Frat boy audience. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/
Erm that wasn't the one I was talking about?

http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=757

:/ That's the one they dropped from consideration.

?While it tested well with the general male demographic, we found that many women were turned off by the cover,? says Levine when asked about the original cover, ?The response was so horrendous that we left it off the reversible cover poll.?
You might want to take a look at the other articles on that website.

http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1666
http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1622
http://www.p4rgaming.com/?p=1607

It's a satire site.
Oh okay I saw it on another thread here.

I retract that example then but my opinion still stands. Publishers are not going to go bankrupt if you make a few concessions to female gamers.

Again it's amazing how people complain about pandering to the lowest common denominator but will use the example of majority rules when arguing about female characters.
 

Batou667

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Kopikatsu said:
Male Dominated Games:
Halo: Combat Evolved: 6.43 Million
Gears of War 1: 5.99 Million
Medal of Honor: Warfighter: 1.94 Million

Female Dominated Games:
Tomb Raider ('13): 1.44 Million
Mirror's Edge: 2.20 Million
Parasite Eve: 2.10 Million

Bothie Games: (For these, I want everyone to keep in mind that according to Bioware, only 18% of the people who played ME3 completed the game as FemShep. So even these should all be heavily male dominated)
Dragon Age: Origins: 4.37 Million
Mass Effect 2: 4.52 Million
TES V: Skyrim: 14.42 Million
Tetris: 150+ million.

I don't entirely see your point.

To an extent there's a male-normative bias - male is the default and female is a variation on that. A quarter-eaten pizza is Pacman, it needs a gender-affirming bow and Marilyn Monroe beauty spot to become female. That's probably cultural, pretty lazy, but also forgivable.

And there's also a real-world reflection in male protagonists. Most soldiers really are male. Why should we be surprised that males are overrepresented in military-themed games?

Also, surely it's a little disingenuous to leave out sales of the rest of the Tomb Raider series? Tomb Raider at its prime positively dwarfed the likes of Halo and Gears.


I suppose the predictable Sarkeesianesque comeback is that this somehow doesn't count, or is in fact evidence of yet more anti-female bias, since Tomb Raider is just masturbatory material - Lara as the de-facto Damsel to be helped out of all those tombs by the (presumably male) player, or whatnot. Look for a sexist narrative, and sure enough you'll find one.

And, what's with leaving out Portal (4 million+ sales on Steam alone) because "Chell's gender is entirely cosmetic"? That's shifting the goalposts. Portal is a game where the lead character is a woman - it's not a game about a woman - and therefore surely the most positive example we could find of a nonsexist game? Like I said earlier, male as a default is just a faintly embarrassing but fairly harmless anachronism. If we're refining our scope to look at games whose protagonist is defined in a meaningful way by their gender, then we'd need to discount the paper-thin and quite literally faceless Master Chief from Halo.
 
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Dr. Doomsduck said:
Awww, whatever else we're debating in this thread, I just want to say THANK YOU for the above movie. I was appalled when Anita Sarkeesian blatantly stuffed Zelda in the 'damsel in the distress' trope, when obviously Sheik is running around being awesome. Basically, I love the points this girl is making, and have actually gained new respect for Peach!
Dr. Doomsduck said:
first:

just because enough random dudes like to see the female characters oversexualized (wtf is that in gears of war? why have i to look at this massive ass??Oh, yeah, i alnmost forgot becaus e its a female character the HAVE to be sexy or the boyz will cry and buy something else..
how funny. not. as long as the gearbros doesn't have to run around in this spandex-nightmare to being gleamed and looked on (and forcing me to look at that..well i can cope.(but well that would never happen-because if it were spandex you´d see the micropenises* of dom and marcus and a part of the male gamer would die out of homophobia or such.)

but that's JUST a female character so everyone wants to see her ass and nobody wants to see the bro´s-asses.(and that's the reasons that there are no chain-mail bikinis for men but for female characters-so the gearboxies have shown very well what the problem is(this is a symptom. the patient is dying. because of giant angy ticks. out of nipples.)And mr-"i love straw" doesn't get it either. soo sad.
Maybe someone should infect all the games with a gay-soft-porn-program which opens the gay-softcore instantly if sb starts playing a videogame so this sb is forced to watch so 5-10 minutes every hour or such. and this sb HAS to watch if hen wants to play.

if this would be the case i think all the male gamers would have a big complaint(because, homophobia, jeah but just because of "not my cup of tee"-too) Also:my spoon is too big. but lets imagine that 90% of gamers like those stuff.
Then imagine almost every other will say-"oh don't behave so bitchy, dont whine like a pussy **, this is only hot gay sex, you can stand it, even the devs liked it, you cant skip it so bear it. I bet there will be rightful indignation-which will be met with -then don´t buy it.
And this is what you do. i dont want to see almost every woman objectified or oversexualized. if i want a bad ass "gears of war"-woman, i don't want her to be over sesxualized so that the strong badass-female don't scares the boyz away (because they are sooo fragile you know and everytime they see a female character and cant look at the ass or the tities ir the frivolous behavior of this characters they cringe in fear. or not? if not, then why cant the girl war the same armor (with little dellen on the breastplate? loot to darks souls how its done.)
And ask him whether he´d love to see this almost every time he plays a game(its never the same softcore-gayporn, so this wont be too repetitive. so mabe he will get some kissing in clothing or some hot steamy censored bumseks--that changes i think.. i´d bet my ass that he´´d be very annoyed. but well, i cant force someone to have emapthy(althought this gayporn idea isnt so bad..)
-because of that the armor-designers of this universe thought-give them the tight jeans. everyone loves booties..

* too much steroids are never good.
** i dont knwo if you´ve noticed but there are a lot ofg very demeaning cursewords and swearwords which relate directly to women. to whine- buys dont cry, so whine= like a woman=weak, be a pussy-female genital=female=weak, bitching=***** female dog=female=weak and irrational (and this was what you were saying.. and the homophobia-yeah, here in Germany the word for gay-schwul is a curseword, because ppl seem to thing that gay people are effeminate and so-female-ish= weak(also irrational. Did i mention that my Spoon is too big?) so the reason why gay and equivalent are curse words is because they try to rob the man of his manliness and ,ake him weak like a female. so its not only homophobic, its misogyny... but that should be nothing new.

[sarcasm ]well, next time they could ask satoshi urushihara for help. I think he might give them hints to desgin even BETTER armor [/ sarcasm]
only something about zelda.


Awww, whatever else we're debating in this thread, I just want to say THANK YOU for the above movie. I was appalled when Anita Sarkeesian blatantly stuffed Zelda in the 'damsel in the distress' trope, when obviously Sheik is running around being awesome. Basically, I love the points this girl is making, and have actually gained new respect for Peach!
Jeah, sure. Did you ever LOOKEd at sheik? even as we know sheik is zelda, sheik has a very male appearance-no titties, a broad torso, no real hips and VERY muscular arms and body. Zelda on the other hand--well, she looses all the nice pumped muscles the seconds she becomes female.


here, the official desing is so manly..sorry, in real life this would only be possible with hormones, mastectomy and long nights ant the gyn. here its magic but the result is the same.
here sheik looks as he is a man. and inherits all the manly traits. The second sheik "degrades" into zelda she gets disempowered. in mere seconds.
so, jeah, sorry, that doesnt count because it seems to me that new players should think that sheik is a male. so hea is identified as male-and has male traits. (and at the beginning zelda gets rescued by impa-so impa might be a good chara-but impa is no damsel)

so sheiks physiognomy is very VERY male-ish-thats the reason i think 100% of the players were baffled as they found out the first time that sheik is zelda. even the "voice" is a helluvalot deeper.

so-okay, no face but the rather manly identified anatomy in a role of a free and very capable character which is independent and strong..

and degrades to the squeaking week girl seconds after being transforms into girly zelda with the pink unpractical dress and the long hair and the blue eyes, lipstick and so on and so on (why the hell didnt shee just took the thing away from her face? running with the dress must be very awful)

here a picture of her. okay, you could say the dress is very wide around her bust but its obvious n that her torso is way more womanly-ierr..
 

DevilWithaHalo

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
What exactly are we losing here? This is what I don't understand about industry defenders. What exactly would we lose by having more female characters as leads. Do you think games would be less fun if you had to play as a woman? Because if so, then I find it awfully sad that you'd judge the quality of a game based on the genitalia of the main character, rather than the merits of the gameplay.
Two fold answer here... (somewhat devils advocate)

...from a publishers standpoint; money. Challenging the status quo is a risky business venture and not one that the vast majority of executives are going to gamble on. It's also the reason that most creative projects don't see the light of day. Niche markets don't work as an economic model for success; you want to target as many demographics as possible to maximize profit margins.

That argument isn't so much in regard to actual loss, but potential loss. And when you talk to any publishers, it's all about potential. Maximizing potential profit, minimizing potential losses. While true investments always come with an element of risk, there is a limit to any investment. If the safe money says to do something a certain way; those that control the money will want to listen to the stats.

There's also negative press, which at this point, can be argued to both harm and support games. Press is press, whether negative or positive. But in the world of political advocacy, and a consumer base that complains about EVERYTHING; minimizing political controversy is also the safest rout to take. Which means the less they deal with the political, the better it is for the bottom line. This is why we've seen companies change certain things about their game to appear more PC; because they are trying to protect their interests.

Also considering the saturation of media, analysts tend to take a look at the bigger picture to; how does cross media affect sales and market trends? One obvious example; block buster action flicks make more money than chick flicks. And most chick flicks have what most consider to be the stereotypical "empowered female" lead (good career, rocking body, great life, etc). What's strange, is that action flicks starring females don't make as much money as those staring men.

One *can* and *should* certainly make the argument that women are still the primary consumers of material goods (at least in the US) and most marketing does involve them to some degree; with the few exceptions where women are not the target demographic. In this case, movies and video games are still primarily consume by men. So that plays into the market focus. You aren't going to walk into a 24 Hour Fitness to sell ice cream (you still might make some money, but it's not your target demographic).

Even crowd funding supports that certain projects are going to get more appealing to the community than others. So we can't even hold the publishers accountable for that. On the plus side, it does support that a more neutral (or gender encompassing) take seems to be the best way to go (if you can successfully manage it). But does that mean it will be met with the same level of success as the status quo? Will it be able to survive the communities discussion and potential backlash that something wasn't handled "correctly"?

This of course, only applied to games that actually deal with gender in some fashion whether through the narrative of the story or through a characters interaction with the environment. What's quite strange, is that in many successful games, gender has nothing to do with it (such as Tetris or Angry Birds), which seems to support the notion that simply *not* having anything to do with gender is a safe bet. (Not to mention games with a striking similarity sans gender switch that were successful when the protagonist was male, but a failure when they were female)

What most of that boils down to is that we may or may not have anything to lose depending on how one looks at it, but what exactly do we stand to gain? And how can you prove it when the evidence doesn't?

...from a philosophical standpoint; is an arbitrary change worth the effort? Say you wrote a narrative which a man is the protagonist. Within the framework of the story, it never occurred to you as the writer that the characters gender ever made the slightest difference, nor was ever a mention in the game. Essentially his being male had nothing to do with the story, so him suddenly being female would make no difference to the story. I would pose two questions to you...

First; what difference does it make then if the character is male or female if it has no impact on the story whatsoever?

Second; how would you respond to criticism that altering the gender of the person creates fundamental differences in audience perception to the character within the framework of the story?

One example, an interaction of the primary character with their father. The same narrative, same emotional reactions, same cinematic, same everything, the only change being that the character is either the fathers son, or the fathers daughter...

Character: I had to do something terrible that I'll have to live with the rest of my life.
Father: I know it's hard, but you'll get through this. You have so much courage in your heart.
Character: I know. It was the right thing to do; you taught me that.
Father: You have no idea how proud I am of you right now.
Character: I love you dad.
Father: I love you too *character*.

...the biological or gender identity of the character has *nothing* to do with their interaction (from an authors perspective at least), yet I would wager a safe bet that the audience reactions change dramatically dependent upon both the genders of the audience, and the specific gender of the character. Does the scene lose or gain anything if you have a specific gender for the character? Is that going to positively or negatively impact your bottom line when it comes to sales? How can you determine the community will think the same way?

Having said all of this (My personal position here...), I am not against male or female characters, nor how they are represented when compared directly to the game and narrative they find themselves in (I like establishing contextual relevance first before comparing it against a larger picture). I just don't buy that certain representations are *better* for the industry when their is a distinct lack of evidence that supports it and the changes suggest a purely arbitrary preference. And given that it remains purely speculative and arbitrary in nature, I welcome those who wish to test it to assume the risk themselves; and not simply require others do it on their behalf (considering we are taking about people's livelihoods here).
 

crimson sickle2

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Nepukadnezzar said:
There was a pretty interesting post on PENNY ARCADE REPORT according to this topic.
It is about publishers and marketing, please read it ... I cannot find it though.

EDIT:

Ha, in your face internet

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
This actually explains why I haven't seen any Tomb Raider advertisements much, there were only a few upon release (please someone tell me if I need to get out from my rock if it was more wide-spread).

Back to the point, I think some of those VGChartz numbers are wrong/outdated a little, at least for Tomb Raider. Square says the game has sold approximately 3.4 million, not 1.44, unless I'm missing something about VGChartz or the 1.44 isn't global.
 

The Lunatic

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It's pretty hard to control what others will buy.

Personally, I cannot say that I have much influence over the shopping decisions of others.

But, I can say that I don't care if your character is female or male, I'm happy to play either.


Often, I prefer to play Females in "Male oriented games" or, games where the player character's gender is an option.


Usually, because these tend to be a lot less preachy about the "LOOK! YOU'RE PLAYING AS A GIRL" elements than games designed specifically with a female protagonist in mind.


And for some reason, playing as a woman who's role in the storyline is completely unchanged than if she were a male is a lot more equal than say, playing as a woman who's womanliness is flaunted as every opportunity.

I suppose I've a habit for "Realism if gender wasn't an issue".

Skyrim is an example of a game that falls a bit foul of this in armour design for me.

Female specific armour.

Plates of metal with mounds on them, deflecting blows towards the sternum, that's just silly in a lot of ways.

For one, who on earth is wearing armour so tightly it's a requirement to have a space for their boobs? This is steel armour we're talking about, not some skin-tight future stuff.

Added to that, what kind of world goes out of their way to make two separate types of armour for each gender? The costs would be insane, we don't even do that now.

You know what a female does if armour does fit? Wear a bigger size.


Does not become

By any reasonable design.

And don't even get me started on mods for skyrim or MMO "Armour" skyrim is pretty good about this kind of thing.

Other games are just a cocktail of depression when it comes to such things.

/Rant.
 

Dr. Cakey

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May I suggest, if there's ever a game you want to play but for whatever reason you don't want to support...try buying it used. Yes, do that thing where you print GameStop money.

crimson sickle2 said:
Back to the point, I think some of those VGChartz numbers are wrong/outdated a little, at least for Tomb Raider. Square says the game has sold approximately 3.4 million, not 1.44, unless I'm missing something about VGChartz or the 1.44 isn't global.
VGChartz is known to fabricate its numbers, so they're not a very good source. I don't know what a better place to turn is, however.
 

Kopikatsu

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Batou667 said:
I said why I didn't include the early Tomb Raiders early in the thread. They were sold on the basis of T&A. The premise wasn't 'Look, you get to play as a woman!' It was 'Check out these BAZOOKAS!'. Anyone who has seen any of the ads for the original Tomb Raider games knows exactly what I'm talking about. Or heard any of the developers talk about the game in an interview. The fact that that the early Tomb Raider's sold on that is yet more evidence that games that pander to male interests sell very well and ones that don't...don't. That's not 'searching for a sexist agenda' that's 'the developers have explicitly stated that was the purpose of the character'.

As for Chell, she doesn't count not because she's not defined by her gender, but because she's not a character. Chell is a floating camera and little more. She doesn't speak, she seems to have no motivations (Only being forced forward by the circumstances she finds herself in), no personality, no anything. It's the very blankest of blank slates. Compared to Chell, Chief is an incredibly deep, thoughtful character. Which is sad. Which is the point.

A little bit off topic, but I'd say that a good gendered character is one that is shaped by their gender, yes. This isn't the same thing as being defined by it, however. For example, I had a friend when I was younger. She was a massive tomboy and would often play football and such with 'the boys', but would get completely destroyed because they were bigger and stronger than she was. So she worked at becoming 'better' for years...and eventually, she became stronger, more confident, and more aggressive than most of the men I knew.

She wasn't defined by her gender, but she was definitely shaped by it. It influenced her decisions and motivations. Any character whose gender is treated as interchangeable is, in my opinion, a terrible character.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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firmicute said:
Jeah, sure. Did you ever LOOKEd at sheik? even as we know sheik is zelda, sheik has a very male appearance-no titties, a broad torso, no real hips and VERY muscular arms and body. Zelda on the other hand--well, she looses all the nice pumped muscles the seconds she becomes female.

here, the official desing is so manly..sorry, in real life this would only be possible with hormones, mastectomy and long nights ant the gyn. here its magic but the result is the same.
here sheik looks as he is a man. and inherits all the manly traits. The second sheik "degrades" into zelda she gets disempowered. in mere seconds.
so, jeah, sorry, that doesnt count because it seems to me that new players should think that sheik is a male. so hea is identified as male-and has male traits. (and at the beginning zelda gets rescued by impa-so impa might be a good chara-but impa is no damsel)

so sheiks physiognomy is very VERY male-ish-thats the reason i think 100% of the players were baffled as they found out the first time that sheik is zelda. even the "voice" is a helluvalot deeper.

so-okay, no face but the rather manly identified anatomy in a role of a free and very capable character which is independent and strong..

and degrades to the squeaking week girl seconds after being transforms into girly zelda with the pink unpractical dress and the long hair and the blue eyes, lipstick and so on and so on (why the hell didnt shee just took the thing away from her face? running with the dress must be very awful)

here a picture of her. okay, you could say the dress is very wide around her bust but its obvious n that her torso is way more womanly-ierr..
I'm sorry, were you bored or something?

First off: It's called breast binding, women have been doing it since Joan of Arc. Second ...I can't like a woman for being kickass? I'm sorry, thank you for telling my ass who I should like. I only 'appreciate' a woman for not having boobs, right, nevermind the fact that Sheik has an integral role in the Ocarina of Time that vastly expands on the character of Zelda.

in a role of a free and very capable character which is independent and strong.

Oooohh Bravo, so what makes her a 'man' is at least partly due to the fact that she is free, very capable, independent and strong?

You know what? This might surprise you but on some days, I wear lovely dresses, I do my hair, put on make up and look good. Sometimes that's because I have an important meeting and I have to dress the part I imagine that this is also expected of a Hylian princess who has to run a fucking country. On other days, I wear old jeans, big boots and a wide sweater to go hiking. When I do this, I don't particularly look feminine, because it makes no sense. Dresses tear, make up runs and assholes tend to bother pretty girls a lot more.

The fact that Sheik is presented as a different person than Zelda, makes her no less or more of an awesome character. Get this into your thick skull: I. Don't. Hate. Men. I like male characters, I like female characters. But the fact that the creator of Zelda went out of his way to add that layer of depth to her, not only CLEARLY counters every 'damsel in distress' trope Zelda was every placed in (because apparently, she could have gotten away if she wanted to), but also enforces the idea that a woman is capable of nothing less than a man.

Zelda is a woman. Sheik, despite her appearances, is a woman. Zelda is Sheik. She did not suddenly become someone else the moment she put on a pink dress. Her previous acts did not dissapear because she needed help for a moment. She is more than a damsel in distress. That's like saying Samus isn't a woman because hur hur, she wears an armor most of the time.

There is more to being a woman than having boobs and pink dresses.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Jan 4, 2010
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Why include Parasite Eve? It's much older than the others on that list, so it doesn't seem like its numbers would be reflective of the same market environment. It's not like they're haven't been more recent games you could pick. I mean, I'm not really complaining, but it just seems like a strange choice. What motivated you to pick those particular games?

Also, a sample size of nine doesn't really do much to establish trends. I'm not saying you won't find the trends you're looking for, just that you need more data to be convincing.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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OtherSideofSky said:
Why include Parasite Eve? It's much older than the others on that list, so it doesn't seem like its numbers would be reflective of the same market environment. It's not like they're haven't been more recent games you could pick. I mean, I'm not really complaining, but it just seems like a strange choice. What motivated you to pick those particular games?

Also, a sample size of nine doesn't really do much to establish trends. I'm not saying you won't find the trends you're looking for, just that you need more data to be convincing.
Well, like I said, I picked them semi-randomly based on what first came to mind (Focusing on solo games or the first game in a franchise, because it was a new IP then and new IPs tend to sell much less than their sequels.)

As for why Parasite Eve is on the list...well, Parasite Eve is one of my favorite games of all time. It doesn't really fit with the rest of the games and I've have done better with putting Devil May Cry/Bayonetta up there, but...I /really/ liked Parasite Eve.

Edit: The offer for people to find their own statistics and share them is still up there, too.