Let's talk about DotA 2 and its balancing issues.

[DoPo]

Can we do something about Phantom Lancer?

Gank him. Gank him a lot. Buy dust and go kill him in his lane. Repeat. If you need to, buy smoke, as well. There you go. You can also counter pick him, too - heroes like Medusa and Earthshaker are rather effective, then anyone with a good AOE is also good, OD just melts his illusions with his orb attack, stuns work rather well, too. Items that are useful are dust and wards (duh), Necro 3 (reveals invisible units), Diffusal Blade (feedback kills illusions quicker, purge directly destroys them), Battle Fury (AOE attacks for melee heroes to destroy illusions quicker), orchid (silence to not allow him to escape and burst him down with the damage bonus), sheepstick (same as before but you don't get damage bonus), and so on.

It's not really that difficult - just gear your play to counter the other team. As a rule of thumb, there isn't a generic playstyle for any and all situations, you tailor how you play based on your teammates and your opponents. Also, how the game goes - if it goes badly, fall back and regroup, don't let them use their advantage, if it goes well, press your advantage and but don't let your enemy take it from you. In a stalemate, where nothing happens, go make stuff happen.

 

[Simskiller]

Can we do something about Phantom Lancer?

I know you're supposed to counter with AoE, except every PL that I played against (That knows what they are doing)that makes it to mid-late game just stomps the entire base.

He can stealth, he can scout, he can juke, he can split-push, he can farm his lion face off,and his clones get durable enough AoE stops mattering.

He's dumb. He's a dumb hero.

I feel this video is accurate to what you're saying (and also fun):


But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

 

[Supdupadog]

But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

See, this advice bugs me.

If the main way to shut down a hero is to stomp them early, well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes. That can't be the de-facto strategy.

And even then, that doesn't mean PL is down and out. I played a game as Earthshaker vs PL. I was told it was a good counter pick. We had a lead on him in lane.

But once we left the laning phase, took our eyes off the guy to go roam for team fights and crap, we soon found the bottom lane swarming in PL clones. Eating the towers.

Cuz PL isn't just annoying cuz he can swarm and smack you down. He's tricky. He hard to pin down. He can farm exp and items in the jungle if he doesn't do well in lane, then send armies of clones into the lanes while he farms and farms.

IME, a good PL is almost never in the clones. Only shows up after all the big initiator ults are out.

And by far the most annoying thing about his clones is they blow your location. Run into one? Well, now the enemy teams knows exactly where you are.

Trying to kill a bunch of them so they don't eat your barracks? Well now they know where you are and have the opening to initiate for an easy kill. Or go after another objective while you try to clean them out.

The kind of pressure you'd need to keep him out of the game completely is nuts, and after him, god help you if the other 4 on the team are decent.

His kit is stupid. It isn't just that it's good at fighting, it fudges up with the general game mechanics. What PL can contribute to a game without directly intervening is too dumb.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

As many others have said thus far, I disagree with your OP. Having put over 900 hours into DoTA 2, I feel that each of the problems that you listed all serve a purpose within the game.

For example, if heroes did not lose gold on death, then ganking a carry before 30 minutes would have far less of an impact, as they would have simply lost time that they could have spent farming instead of unreliable gold. In addition, the ultimate abilities (and abilities in general, actually) do not need to be re-evaluated--they are all quite powerful and have a role within a team composition, but they can also be countered (Riki's ultimate is made useless by Dust of Appearance/Sentry Wards). Finally, if certain scenarios are occurring (such as a 12 level gap between enemy heroes or one team spawn camping the other), then it means that you have lost, plain and simple--that isn't the game's fault.

With all of that said, I do feel that there are a couple of heroes that need to be re-balanced/re-worked. Phantom Lancer's agility gain is waaaaaay too high for someone who's illusions get a percentage of his base damage, meaning that he can begin to push at ridiculous speeds far sooner than some actual pushers. On the topic of Phantom Lancer, I really think that Diffusal Blade should not be allowed on him (similar to how Blink Dagger used to not be allowed on Pudge and Vengeful Spirit); it's simply too good on him, considering that his entire combat style involves creating illusions that all have the buff.

Centaur Warrunner also needs to be looked at, especially now that Blink Dagger costs no mana to cast. He has two moves that cost mana, neither of which are very costly. Add this to his strength gain and passive, and you have a hero who is too good at too many things.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Have been playing Dota for almost 8 years now and... well, everyone already explained everything.
Dota is a very well balanced game with an incredibly deep meta. 99.9% times when curbstomp happens it's players' fault. It's not game's fault that 5th guy decided to random and got Pudge when we needed support. It's not game's fault when supports thinks that he's carry and doesn't buy wards.
Currently I have only three heroes that I have issues with: Nature's Prophet, Phantom Lancer and Ember Spirit.
I don't think that NP and PL are imbalanced, I just hate them, because they are the only heroes whose pick completely changes the game. Just the fact that opposing team picked either of them, means that from now on game is about them. Whole pick is dedicated to counter them and every single decision in a game basically revolves around them. I just hateeee it.
And Ember. I just think he's bullshit. Especially his Sleight of Fist. I mean, what an actual fuck, 6 sec cooldown, bonus damage and being able to cast spells while at it! He's a carry and initiator that doesn't have to directly participate in a fight!

 

[DoPo]

But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

See, this advice bugs me.

If the main way to shut down a hero is to stomp them early, well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes. That can't be the de-facto strategy.

Of course you won't be able to stop him easily when farmed...but, "well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes". Especially true for carries.

If you wish another strategy then finish the game early before PL can farm. He is dangerous due to the items, but the items also take time to farm. Don't get to this point - aim for early victory. Or shut down his comrades - I have lost a game despite having a farmed PL because the rest of my team was being stomped in team battles.

And even then, that doesn't mean PL is down and out. I played a game as Earthshaker vs PL. I was told it was a good counter pick. We had a lead on him in lane.

ES is a good counterpick, but not in lane - Fissure is an enormous counter to illusions running around, and the ulty basically melts PL and reveals which one of the swarm he is.

But once we left the laning phase, took our eyes off the guy

There you go - don't do that. Why did you do it? And can't you see you shouldn't have?

He can farm exp and items in the jungle

Ward the jungle. Establish map control - really basic thing here. It's not the other team's fault you let their jungle unwarded. If they counter ward - then deward. You would need detection anyway.

And by far the most annoying thing about his clones is they blow your location. Run into one? Well, now the enemy teams knows exactly where you are.

Same can be said about wards. If he runs into one, then you know where he is. He can't really hide his presence - at most he can WW and set the illusion in another direction, but you would still know where he is.

There are already ways to handle everything you mentioned. OK, technically there is one really annoying combo and that is PL+KotL - I would suggest not running against it - pick KotL, if possible, or fall back to constant ganks - kill the KotL a lot for easy money and feed your carry. Less annoying now.

 

[DasDestroyer]

You seem to be somewhat missing the point.

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

A lot of times if a mid hero is winning their lane they won't get as much gold or exp by ganking as they would if they just stood in lane. However in addition to getting gold themselves, they take away enemies' gold, which actually makes ganking worth it.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

The game is called Defense of the Ancients, you're supposed to be defending the ancients, and, by extension, the towers, not the other way around.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

There are actually perfectly transparent, if complicated, rules by which towers pick who to hit, and if the tower is attacking you you can attack-click a friendly to have the tower reset its aggro.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

Unless you want to make the fountain literally instakill enemies, there's no point because getting enough evasion will allow you to dodge fountain shots so you can just sit inside and kill everyone. Also some of the most hilarious videos come from a team diving fountain while 1 person kills their base.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

That's already how it is. Lower level heroes require less exp to level up. And supports more or less cap out at level 16, sometimes earlier, so it doesn't even matter that much.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

Riki's whole ult can be countered by a single 220 gold item, as long as you don't wait until he's godlike to use it. Sniper's ultimate costs roughly 1/3 of his mana.

I was just throwing any RNG people I could think of at the time

There is one thing important to realise about the RNG in Dota 2 - there is no RNG. The game uses a pseudo random distribution (PRD) rather than a pseudo random number generator (pRNG). In short, the difference is that the PRD is "less random" - it balances out the random chance by smoothing out the success/failure spikes. You are less likely to get a streak of crits, also a streak of no crits. Just needed to mention it.

There are a few things that still use simple random distribution. Skull Basher comes to mind, but I can't remember any others off the top of my head.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

"Let's talk about DotAs balance" followed by "Rikis ult is OP" => You've no idea what you're talking about.

Those discussions aren't healthy in their respective forums, please keep them out of this one <.<

 

[Mister K]

You got your ass kicked too many times in a row I believe, right?

Oh I've been there, my friend, I've been there. Summer of 2013, during July I've lost about 20-25 games in a row. I still have more losses than wins. You can have my sincerest condolences.

You are partially correct. There ARE pub-stompers (Riki, Sniper and such). HOWEVER, that is what they ARE. PUB-stompers. They are named so because newbies in pub games do not know about team synergy and can't counter them properly. But moreoften then not, you will not see them played on pro level, because, if shut down early, they are useless. Plus, they are almost useless in team fights.

The biggest problem is not the characters, but players, even higher level ones. Even if guys and gals pick rather nice team of characters, most of the time they (players, not characters) do not actually play as a team in the beginning. Guilty of it myself. Playing as Crystal Maiden (THE babysitter of DOTA2), laning against Riki. Buy sentry wards? Fuck that! Amass money for boots and Mek.

What I mean is you can't blame the imbalance, because every character is imbalanced in one way or the other (Except for Meepo, I can hardly understand his usefulness) and things that you've mentioned are essential to the game.

You have three choices to pick from:
1. Find your own team, play together, COMMUNICATE, become better;

2. As others said, play League, because it is a lot easier to play;

3. Do what I do and stop cariing about winning/losing. Shut down your emmotions. If you are getting slaughtered, than shrug it off. You are winning? Enjoy it. And don't forget to have fun. Oh, and don't play when in bad mood.

 

[Itsthefuzz]

I've been playing the game since its "wonderful" WC3 days, and I've experienced a lot of frustration around the DOTA mechanics when I was newer. But really, DOTA is a tough game to learn with a mean curve and a meaner community, but the game is pretty well balanced for what its intent is; a competitive MOBA or whatever term you prefer. Most of the issues you and a few others listed with the game are pretty much non-existent in mid to high level play. PL/Sniper/Blood Seeker see no competitive picks and even at the pretty mediocre level I play at I rarely see them. And even if I do see them, most people are competent enough to know how to generally counter them. Carries like sniper get ganked early and often, and aren't left alone to farm. Players don't wander alone without a TP when a Bloodseeker is about.

I'm sorry, but you either need to continue playing and gaining experience until those issues are no longer a problem... or you need to find a different game. DOTA isn't for everyone, and that's fine. They shouldn't harm the game as it is now to appease to people that the game really isn't made for. Try League of Legends, it's still fun and a lot more laid back mechanically.

 

[Vivi22]

1) Get rid of gold loss on death.

This is an essential mechanic, it shouldn't be removed. Yes, its annoying to lose 300 gold when you are only 100 gold away from your big item, but it's just as annoying for the enemy. It forces you to play smart, thinking "should i engage in this fight, or should i be safe and farm this extra gold?" Also when you get into higher play, certain heroes need certain "big items" before they start to make a big impact, you will want to prioritize killing them before they get that item to delay it as much as possible.

Except you already achieve this by killing them without the penalty. 20 seconds out of the game can be anywhere from 300-1000g lost simply from being unable to kill creeps. The penalty is overkill and tips way too heavily in favor of the higher-level character.

So what? Honestly, why does it matter if the balance tips in favour of a higher level character? That's kind of the point. If the other team has gotten so far ahead that you can't avoid getting killed then you're already well behind but it's not because the game isn't balanced. It's because you probably didn't play as well as they did.

In fact, most of the stuff you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with game balance. What you're after are comeback mechanics designed to let weaker players catch up without actually having to play as well as the other team to do it. That has nothing to with balance, and that such comeback mechanics don't exist does not make the game bad in any way. What it does mean is you're going to have to actually outplay your opponents if you want to win. In a competitive game, that isn't a bad thing.

Look, no offense, but if you want to argue that you'd like Dota 2 more if certain things were different then go ahead. But stop misusing the term balance please. A game does not have to keep both sides as equal as possible at all times to be balanced.

 

[Lyri]

Okay, if you've played DotA, you've probably been in the following situation:

One guy on the a team chooses one of a handful of characters (Riki or Sniper are the most common, but I've seen others), levels quickly to 6 with a few easy kills, and then at a speed almost double the other characters and butchers the opponents, allowing them to grab some of the top items and giving their allies way more room to level, which exacerbates the problem. By the 15 minute mark, it's essentially a slaughter where one team is just running from any confrontation because one character can take on all five. It results in terribly unbalanced games and miserable play experience for one team while the other side is almost boring. I've been both on the giving and receiving side of this. It doesn't require skill at all.

So I think that DotA 2 could use some changes to deal with balancing:

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

So this is what I think DotA 2 needs to make the game more balanced. Yes, some of this is straight up taking stuff from LoL, but DotA and LoL are essentially the same game to begin with with different heroes, tile sets, and marginal features. Embrace the similarities (because feature copyrights are much harder to fight in court than others).

So what do you think would help the game get more balanced? Are there any characters you think are "broken" and do you see how they could be fixed?

Hi there, I run the DotA 2 Escapist group and I have played over 2000 hours of DotA 2. I'm here to tell you why you are wrong.

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

Clearly you do not understand the problem, not even close.
I skimmed your post and I understand you want to swap out a lot of DotA's mechanics to be more like League of Legends, this is one of them.
What you want is essentially the game to come to the conclusion of "Who can finish first before the better picks come online"
preventing those who need items the most from needing them
Do you know what is preventing you from getting the items? Yourself.
allowing those who kill them to get the top items better
No, if you die then you're giving them the gold.
it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g
Play safer, stop dying. Buy Wards

Do you understand how reliable and unreliable gold works? Do you even recognize it as a mechanic of DotA?
Probably not.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

Horseshit.
You cannot solo a tower at level one, it just doesn't happen unless you have figured out some way to get around back door protection and keep your hero alive at level one, I want to see it.
At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome
This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging."

Are you fucking serious?
The healing ward is a one shot object, if you're hitting Juggernaut and not the ward he puts down in a team fight, you're doing it wrong.
Clearly, you have zero clue how this whole thing works.

At level 16 a Jugg could easily have a Desolator which adds a -armour debuff to the tower which stacks, is this a balance issue too or are you just chiming off about how people in the mid game can use their damage items to beat a tower down.
Towers are NOT meant to be this catch all safety net that saves you at all points of the game like in League, towers stop early aggression and that is it.
You have to earn your keep.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

This I would agree with but if there was a system in place then it would be abused, most likely. (People forcing enemies into the fountain or using it to defend a base without punishment)
The idea is good on paper, bad in practice.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

If you want scaling levels, go play an Elder Scrolls game.
Not only do you want to keep your gold you lose because you fucked up and died but you want to rip off the advantage somebody earned because "it's unfair".
They are better than you, they beat. This is how contests, you don't get a medal for just competing.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

So this is what I think DotA 2 needs to make the game more balanced. Yes, some of this is straight up taking stuff from LoL, but DotA and LoL are essentially the same game to begin with with different heroes, tile sets, and marginal features. Embrace the similarities (because feature copyrights are much harder to fight in court than others).

So what do you think would help the game get more balanced? Are there any characters you think are "broken" and do you see how they could be fixed?

Or stop sucking.
None of those ultimates are overpowered at all, Riki is a bad pick unless you want to counter Anti-mage.
If you lane against Riki you should be watching for him hitting level 6 and having sentry wards ready to place down in your lane so you can see him at all times.
What do you think is going to happen if you try to lane against someone without detection? Do you pick Spirit Breaker and charge him when you see him hit a creep and attempt to gank him without dust on you?

Sniper can be countered because of his incredibly poor mana pool as an Agi hero, considering he is building damage items and not int items he never will be able to spam it like you make it out he can.
Heres a clue, get a BKB or a Pipe of Insight and completely and utterly ignore it when you run up on him and beat him into the ground.

Nothing you mentioned is even broken.
You think Riki's stealth is bad, have you even LOOKED at Slark's?
Don't try to start a balance discussion when you do not understand how the game works.

If you want to learn, join the Escapists user group.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/DotA-2

I was just throwing any RNG people I could think of at the time, Legion Commander is another although she doesn't quite rely on hers as hard when compared to everyone else. Also doesn't Bloodseeker's ult base on distance travelled? I've immediately died from blinking away with Antimage before so wouldn't teleporting back to base just instantly kill me from the thousands of units instantly moved?

DOTA mechanics. Up there with the mysteries of the universe.

You only get hurt by BloodSeekers ult if you move, the rule is set by a certain distance over time.

If the affected unit moves more than 1300 distance in 0.25 seconds, it will not receive any damage

Teleporting will save you completely, always carry one when facing Blood Seeker. His force staff (if he builds one) will not cancel your channel so do not panic.
Only pray when he has a Basher.

 

[Itsthefuzz]

Snip

Hey, I agree with pretty much all your points, but I think you could have came off a little less hostile. Not really helping the "DOTA/LoL/MOBA communities are full of elitist assholes." mentality. Yeah most of the problems OP has are due to lack of experience and understanding of the game, but you don't have to belittle them over it.

 

[Lyri]

Snip

Hey, I agree with pretty much all your points, but I think you could have came off a little less hostile. Not really helping the "DOTA/LoL/MOBA communities are full of elitist assholes." mentality. Yeah most of the problems OP has are due to lack of experience and understanding of the game, but you don't have to belittle them over it.

You're right, I do not have to and if this was a game of DotA you would get a friendly commendation.

I personally felt that OP might just need to hear it, whether you agree with me or not is another issue but this is the stance I'm taking.

 

[Itsthefuzz]

Snip

Hey, I agree with pretty much all your points, but I think you could have came off a little less hostile. Not really helping the "DOTA/LoL/MOBA communities are full of elitist assholes." mentality. Yeah most of the problems OP has are due to lack of experience and understanding of the game, but you don't have to belittle them over it.

You're right, I do not have to and if this was a game of DotA you would get a friendly commendation.

I personally felt that OP might just need to hear it, whether you agree with me or not is another issue but this is the stance I'm taking.

I can understand. I feel like DOTA is a pretty amazing game, and I've been impressed with how much I still continue enjoying playing/watching it. Since the release of many newer DOTA-esq games, a lot of people have been criticism some of the games mechanics that were made due to limitations of the WC3 engine (Like the inability to stack orb effects.)

And even though I think change can be good, I think DOTA's mechanics are pretty much nice as is. So I do feel a bit defensive when others try saying that the game needs to be changed and streamlined to fit with a lot of the more, for lack of a better word, casual games. I've dealt with this game for a while and I really think it's at a great spot.

Or maybe that's Stockholm syndrome talking.

 

[Lyri]

I can understand. I feel like DOTA is a pretty amazing game, and I've been impressed with how much I still continue enjoying playing/watching it. Since the release of many newer DOTA-esq games, a lot of people have been criticism some of the games mechanics that were made due to limitations of the WC3 engine (Like the inability to stack orb effects.)

And even though I think change can be good, I think DOTA's mechanics are pretty much nice as is. So I do feel a bit defensive when others try saying that the game needs to be changed and streamlined to fit with a lot of the more, for lack of a better word, casual games. I've dealt with this game for a while and I really think it's at a great spot.

Or maybe that's Stockholm syndrome talking.

The mechanics are what get everyone, there are a lot of them to understand and some of them make no sense, like why some items and abilities use PRD and others are still using RNG.
A lot of complaints from the newer players comes from people not understanding the mechanics - I get why people think Sniper is broken (honestly, I actually feel him going that way thanks to the Headshot buffs) but that just isn't the case because you got smoked.

I like how the game keeps to it's roots and keeps quirky limitations, just because. I would hate to see orbs being stacked like mana drain and lifesteal orb but i like the fact that lifesteal aura from vlads works.
It's quirky and cute and allows for interesting play.

Feel free to join the group, it is open to anybody.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/DotA-2

 

[thesilentman]

Uhh, no. I came in here expecting a genuine response to the game's meta, where we could see some good changes. Granted, 6.80 is quite balanced in many people's opinions, but Icefrog isn't perfect, and the flavor of the game is everchanging and unique, something shown quite well through his balance patches.

Okay, if you've played DotA, you've probably been in the following situation:

One guy on the a team chooses one of a handful of characters (Riki or Sniper are the most common, but I've seen others), levels quickly to 6 with a few easy kills, and then at a speed almost double the other characters and butchers the opponents, allowing them to grab some of the top items and giving their allies way more room to level, which exacerbates the problem. By the 15 minute mark, it's essentially a slaughter where one team is just running from any confrontation because one character can take on all five. It results in terribly unbalanced games and miserable play experience for one team while the other side is almost boring. I've been both on the giving and receiving side of this. It doesn't require skill at all.

Uh, that's the type of hero they are. Give them kills, they will take over a game. Period. Your job as a Dota player in any lane is to stop that. It's not even that hard, seriously.

With the heroes you mentioned, Sniper and Riki, they're actually laughably easy to deal with. Sniper has shitty starting damage, his spells and passives are pretty meh (except Headshot, but the tradeoff here is that it will scale as he gets items) and his ult is downright laughable compared to the others in the game. There's also the fact that his mobility is nothing compared to other heroes, some including Storm Spirit, Puck, Timbersaw, and Queen of Pain, for starters. Just outmaneuver him and kill him. He is also ridiculously squishy in nature with no redeeming qualities to justify that squishiness. Shadow Fiend outputs tremendous physical damage, which will scale into the late-game. Puck offers initiation not rivalled by any other hero in the game along with the ability to live 99% of the time. Meepo gets permanent ensnare and ridiculous damage without needing to build damage. There's nothing redeeming for what he does, which is late game oriented damage based around staying far from range.

Riki can actually become a legitimate threat, since he's got a cloud of silence that can make you miss attacks, a Blink, and a damage steroid based off of his Agility. The problem with him is that it all revolves around his invisibility. His invisibility is the entire kit, despite him having useful spells, as the invisibility lets him use those spells to their fullest. It is not hard to have every member on the team carry Dust of Appearance after he hits six. When he goes Rambo on you, use it, have your friends come back, and just kill him. His invisibility is not a free get out of jail card, so teach the random pubs that same lesson.

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

Gold loss on death exaggerates one crucial aspect of Dota: the importance of not dying. This is not League, where you can get by fine in the game even through death. Ever played Dark Souls? Dark Souls teaches you to stay cautious and careful, so the rewards become sweeter despite the cruel circumstances around. You only fully understand the bliss of defeating Ornstein and Smough after they've pounded you for as long as you can remember.

Dota works the same way. You stayed alive? You get more gold, you can take towers, you'll have more levels from ganks and can force objectives. I, along with many other people, have come back from many games deemed unwinnable by my random pub mates mostly because of one thing: staying alive.

Death is perfectly fine in Dota.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

"Defense" of the Ancients is a game about keeping your buildings. Throne is everything in this game, not kills or any arbitrary elements such as those.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

Melee heroes also tend to be and generally build bulky anyway. They also have distinct advantages ranged heroes don't in this game, some of which I'm glad to explain if you would like me to.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

That's right, you shouldn't. If that is happening, the game should be over already and your opponents have just been being rude to you. Fountain diving (spawn camping here in Dota) is something that is a common problem in the community right now. If you've got a solution, offer it, as we'd like one too.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

That's how it already works... ._.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

Out of all the abilities that you can possibly look at in Dota, you choose the two that are not even close to being "overpowered"?

Okay, do remember this though: there is nothing overpowered in Dota, just heroes and situations that are stronger in certain situations than others.

So this is what I think DotA 2 needs to make the game more balanced. Yes, some of this is straight up taking stuff from LoL, but DotA and LoL are essentially the same game to begin with with different heroes, tile sets, and marginal features. Embrace the similarities (because feature copyrights are much harder to fight in court than others).

They are NOT the same game. League is meant for one audience as a casual game, not necessarily a bad thing; some people don't want to put themselves under the stress that Dota can involve.

But comparing League to Dota? No. It takes away from the special charm and the appeal of the game. There are heroes in the game that I cannot honestly imagine that I would play in League. I've always loved Dota for heroes such as Meepo, Storm Spirit, Puck, and Rubick. I don't think it's in Dota's niche to pull off what League does best.

 

[Lyri]

You are totally right, but that game exists, it's LOL. LOL is the real, serious version of the OG Dota, Dota 2 is the wacky unstable version of the OG Dota.

And you Dota players know this to be true. All of the points this guy makes are valid and are huge points that skew a game. Dota 2 is only tolerable in a controlled environment of 10 average level players that fully understand the game. Making it a fantasy to consider the game anything more than a super niche like flight simulators.

I play both, I loved some of the wacky things about OG Dota, mega creeps, denials, river buffs, secret item shops, chickens, blink daggers. And sometimes I hate when LOL players are so up their own ass about rigidly adhering to a meta game.

Dota 2 is not balanced or accessible, and for the people who want that it is perfect. LOL is an accessible easy to understand hard to master game. LOL is obviously a perfect e sport, Dota 2 could never be one as it is way too complicated.

Dota 2 is Virtual Fighter and LOL is Smash Brothers. Both good fighting games but one is far more complicated, the other is easy to get but hard to master.

Nice opinion, but no.

 

[SinisterGehe]

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

This is essential mechanism. The point behind it is to make it possible stop carries from snowballing or stop their snowball. Also it makes game shorter - they are already 45+ mins on average. By allowing the other team to get stronger faster.
Also it makes death something to avoid at any cost. Instead of giving the other team just advance on pushing and fights it makes you weaker personally.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

There is already backdoor protection in place, a tower can not be killed by an hero unless it has been hit by a creep first. Also buildings can not be destroyed if previous tier is up.
This also makes the game end faster if the other team is at the stage that it is able to solo towers.
Also if a team can afford to lose a carry form a team fight to go solo push lanes - then you were loosing to begin with.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

They have changed the targeting priority since beta like 4 times. You can loose tower aggro by being attacking a creep. This latest change was to make towers a safe zone for heroes early game. And a bigger threat.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

If you are getting pool camped then you lost already. So what does it matter?

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

So you are saying remove the skill of grinding GPM EPM from the game? I haven't seen major level difference between the teams unless the other one is clearly loosing. Also higher level you are longer respawn takes so it will give advance for the other team.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

Sniper can already be killed by Bounty hunter passive crit and his ulti nowadays requires you to be visible to him during the channeling period, just go behind a tree. Riki is nullified with Dust/wards/silencer/silence/Bloodseeker. If you can't counter Riki with teamwork then you deserve to lose.

So this is what I think DotA 2 needs to make the game more balanced. Yes, some of this is straight up taking stuff from LoL, but DotA and LoL are essentially the same game to begin with with different heroes, tile sets, and marginal features.

Dota is not LoL, LoL is not dota. They are different games they should stay different. Whats the point of making other kinds of games if they are going just to follow the rules of it's older counterpart.
Yes they are Mobas. But what makes them different are the rules they are played! Why the fuck would we make the more similar.
If you like the LoL rules, go play LoL! If you like Hon's, Strife's or whatever other games there are - go play them!

So what do you think would help the game get more balanced? Are there any characters you think are "broken" and do you see how they could be fixed?

There are no broken characters, just bad players. Any hero is good if played right.

 

[Vigormortis]

Seems most of these "balance changes" are simply ideas coming from both a lack of knowledge and experience with Dota 2, and an attempt to "dumb-down" the game to turn it into LoL.

Every single one of your suggestions OP, save one (maybe), would fundamentally alter and ruin the core of Dota 2.

To put it simply: they're awful ideas.

No offense.

Bloodseeker can fuck off.

Sorry, but you lost at me this. If one of your primary examples of "imbalanced, overpowered" heroes is Bloodseeker....

Yeah, I just...don't even know what to say to that. Really.

Not even strictly about character balance either, the game engine is shockingly bad. Yes I know why, no I don't take that as an excuse for playing on what feels like 400ms all the time.

I'm sorry, but what? How is the engine even remotely bad? Especially when compared to the utterly shit-tacular excuse for an engine games like League use.

If your ping is bad, that's on you. But if your "400ms" jab is in reference to the turn speeds in Dota, then you're being ridiculous.

I could go into why, but this point's been argued ad nauseam, even around here.

Also I don't like having to pray to my hastily set up shrine to RNJesus before every single game I play as or against someone like Phantom Assassin, Spirit Breaker or Ogre Magi. How is there a pro scene for this game again? One or two lucky stuns or crits can turn the advantage from one team to another and there's nothing to say but luck.

I believe DOPO has already covered this, but I'll just add that most of the professional, e-sports teams don't rely on those heroes. Rarely, even, do they get picked. In fact, most of the pro teams avoid the mechanics reliant on "chance" all together.

You think Riki's stealth is bad, have you even LOOKED at Slark's?

This is what baffles me.

How can anyone complain about Riki, and his invis, when Slark exists? I mean, seriously...

He basically has a repeatable five seconds of BKB and Shadow Blade.