Lets talk about games and the lack of good stories

[9thRequiem]

I think the title of this thread has caused a huge amount of confusion. Me included. The posts seem to be talking about a lot of different things in reaction to "What games have good stories", but from what I tell of the OP, that's not what you're talking about at all.

Am I right in thinking this isn't about stories at all - it's actually about gameplay affecting story, and the way we experience stories? About the gameplay itself altering the story in a way that doesn't happen with movies or books (except, I guess, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books).
My question is that does this make stories better? Having a completely linear storyline that's really good is a lot better than a poor storyline you can affect. Having the players actions affect the story is a novel approach, but usually ends up with all options lacking coherency.

As to Mass Effect, I would argue that the ability to choose endings does change the story. ME is, at its core, about humanity's interactions. Take the Save-The-Council option, and it's a story about how we're able to overcome prejudice. Let them die, and you've altered the heart of the story to one of survival regardless of cost.

I, personally, would argue that Bioshock didn't so much let you see the story through gameplay/exploration as it did flesh out the world itself, but that's just splitting hairs, as a story is weaved into the world it inhabits.

 

[Vault101]

2) You're kidding. You decide how the entire conflict resolves itself. How is that not "reflecting on the main story"? Also there are technically 4 factions, not 2. And there's a lot of wiggle room between those 4 factions too. You can free the wasteland, but still burn it down, or you can support Caesar but still be a nice dude. It's not a binary choice like... well, almost every other choice-based game sadly.

I guess that is true. But it feels... -how should I put it- fragmented. I guess this is just a precursor to point 3 I've mentioned.

anway that isnt to say I enjoy choice now and again, I do, but that just me...generally Ill choose one way and stick with it, because (again if its a good/bad thing) Like I've barely deveated from doing the same thing in Mass effect...

I saw this bit of text pop up in another quote and I just had to mention something.

Yes, most will follow one path in Mass Effect (2). And in that game it is also very easy to follow that path. You know in advance which answer leads to which path. I think it is appropriate to mention the game has been dumbed down (no, not streamlined) to make it easy to follow. Fortunately, it seems to work for Mass Effect, more or less.

But if you want a true experience with multiple shades of gray. Well, then you have to look elsewhere and you have to look very hard. Because very little games offer this experience nowadays and even fewer present it in such a way the answer (or path) isn't always clear. In that case you can't follow just one path. No, you have to choose what you think is best. The only recent game that did this was The Witcher 2.

And that is a whole different level of storytelling...

but its not like the first mass effect had a whole lot of options eather....

 

[Tayh]

Has anyone mentioned Max Payne?
Sure it's scripted and railroaded to hell, but it's still one of the best storytelling games I've ever played.
I traditionally prefer RPG's with more freedom, but I make exceptions for games such as Max Payne.

 

[4RM3D]

I think the title of this thread has caused a huge amount of confusion. Me included. The posts seem to be talking about a lot of different things in reaction to "What games have good stories", but from what I tell of the OP, that's not what you're talking about at all.

Am I right in thinking this isn't about stories at all - it's actually about gameplay affecting story, and the way we experience stories? About the gameplay itself altering the story in a way that doesn't happen with movies or books (except, I guess, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books).

That is actually an interesting view on the matter. I guess you are right about that.

My question is that does this make stories better? Having a completely linear storyline that's really good is a lot better than a poor storyline you can affect. Having the players actions affect the story is a novel approach, but usually ends up with all options lacking coherency.

No, but the point is that we already have a lot of good linear stories. But with games as a medium you can present the story in a new way. And most developers don't really change the story 'formula'. We still end up with the same thing we had 10 years ago. Actually, I might almost say it has gotten worse.

but its not like the first mass effect had a whole lot of options eather....

True, but I never said it was any different.

The problem is that game stories, by and large, lack the thematic depth, symbolism and ambiguity that generally differentiate a good story from a great one.

That is also an issue. As I have stated: Mass Effect story works great for a standard game. But if it's translated onto the big screen, I get the feeling it turns out to be a mediocre sci-fi flick. It would be nice to see a thought provoking story being told in a game. Most disturbing example I can come up with is Silent Hill 2.

Look at The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka. It's widely regarded as one of the greatest short stories of the 20th Century, and this is due in part to just how damn ambiguous the story is. *snip*

Go play The Stanley Parable [http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-stanley-parable] now.

I'll wait...

Okay, so did you explore all the possible routes? This game has one of the weirdest storytelling -uhm...- things, I have ever witnessed. Anyhow, I thought you might like it, seeing you talk about The Metamorphosis.

 

[Skin]

And if you want an even purer "video game story", look waaay out there at a little game (that many of you have heard of) called Mount and Blade (Warband/Fire and Sword)..

What? MnB has no story... It's an open world game and that's exactly the point. Sure, you can craft your own story and pretend you are the dazzling knight working for King so-and-so, or you are a great Rebel after your King gave you rightfully earned fief away, but that still doesn't mean the game has a story in it.

It would be like saying that in Skyrim your actually a super-soldier from the future sent to kill all orcs using only various types of stick. Or if your playing Halo and you decide that you are a double agent and your job is to help the aliens win.

This does not equal story, but rather it is creation of own story and yes, MnB is very, very good at that. If they could tighten up 3rd person combat, make armies actually feel like armies and add some sort of kingdom manager, it would be one of the best games ever.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

What? MnB has no story... It's an open world game and that's exactly the point. Sure, you can craft your own story and pretend you are the dazzling knight working for King so-and-so, or you are a great Rebel after your King gave you rightfully earned fief away, but that still doesn't mean the game has a story in it.

Mount and Blade doesn't have a story in the traditional definition of the word "story"; That is, a linear sequence of events. However, it has a story in the sense that the world progresses by itself: Nations go to War with each other, entire cities are sieged and razed, and peace treaties are signed. I'm not sure, but I think that progress is completely random and arbitrary.... but nonetheless there IS a linear sequence of events.

You can weave yourself into the primary narrative of the land (or not) and at that point it becomes your story. You're using a false analogy with the Halo and Skyrim things because unlike those hypothetical scenarios, the scenarios you bring up in MnB aren't completely imagined. Whether you're a Rebel or a ass-kissing knight, both of those narratives still fit the context of the overarching world, and hence they are both viable stories. The game lets you pick either path and everything in between. You just pick which story unfolds, and how.

THAT is not something that you can do in a movie, novel, or a linear video game: hence MnB tells a great game story.

 

[4RM3D]

Mount and Blade doesn't have a story in the traditional definition of the word "story"; That is, a linear sequence of events. However, it has a story in the sense that the world progresses by itself: Nations go to War with each other, entire cities are sieged and razed, and peace treaties are signed. I'm not sure, but I think that progress is completely random and arbitrary.... but nonetheless there IS a linear sequence of events.

You can weave yourself into the primary narrative of the land (or not) and at that point it becomes your story. You're using a false analogy with the Halo and Skyrim things because unlike those hypothetical scenarios, the scenarios you bring up in MnB aren't completely imagined. Whether you're a Rebel or a ass-kissing knight, both of those narratives still fit the context of the overarching world, and hence they are both viable stories. The game lets you pick either path and everything in between. You just pick which story unfolds, and how.

THAT is not something that you can do in a movie, novel, or a linear video game: hence MnB tells a great game story.

And there I thought MnB was just a budget version of Oblivion. But what you have said is interesting. Maybe I should have bought it when it was on sale. Oh well, I'll keep an eye out.

 

[Skin]

Mount and Blade doesn't have a story in the traditional definition of the word "story"; That is, a linear sequence of events. However, it has a story in the sense that the world progresses by itself

This is setting/gameplay as opposed to narrative. This is not a story.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

And there I thought MnB was just a budget version of Oblivion. But what you have said is interesting. Maybe I should have bought it when it was on sale. Oh well, I'll keep an eye out.

Warband for 7.5 dollars was the best sale of the holiday man. Don't worry they'll put it back up at some point for sure.

This is setting/gameplay as opposed to narrative. This is not a story.

Nope. That's not setting. The setting of MnB is just "generic medieval land". What they DO with they world is something different and, as far as I know, unique.

 

[Bostur]

Some adventure games had good stories, where gameplay and plot was inseparable. This was especially true for a few of the text-based adventure games. Magnetic Scrolls was the studio I personally thought made the most of the adventure genre prior to point-and-click.
In terms of graphical adventures I think Lucasarts often succeeded in making story an integral part of their games. Not always, but often.


In shooters I think Valve has been the most innovative by letting the story unfold through the gameplay rather than telling it. The first Half-Life was probably the best at it, but I think they also succeeded pretty well with Half-Life 2 and the first Portal.

I agree that Bastion deserves some praise as well, not because it is innovative in it's methods, but because it is very well executed.

There are a lot of types of gameplay that doesn't really need story, and I think there is a risk it feels a little tacked-on in those cases. The typical structure of gameplay-plot-gameplay-plot often seen in RTS games and shooters. I think thats fine, not everything needs to be revolutionary. The story acts as rewards for completing a scenario or level in these cases, and thats a perfect purpose in many of those games.

Traditional sequential storytelling requires a sequential medium. If a game isn't made this way, the setting is as much a valid form of storytelling as the traditional epic structure. If a game doesn't have start or ending it can't have that type of story. Skyrim and the new Fallout games makes good use of what I would call 'environmental storytelling'. Stuff that simply is instead of being told.

I am a bit surprised at the mention of Bioshock in this context. To me it felt like a trip to a museum or a ride in a theme park. The player is guided on rails, while the narrator talks. It doesn't get much more traditional than that.

 

[GonzoGamer]

There are some titles that have a more dynamic story. The story was one of the very few improvements New Vegas made to Fallout 3. It worked more like a integrated choose your path book. Decisions affect future choices and ultimately, the ending.
There were a few issues however with locked quests and things like that but that game had so many technical issues, even the story couldn?t save it.
The thing is that story isn?t really a top priority for most games and I?m not sure I really want it to be. When they can fit it in well, that?s great, but engaging gameplay is what I look for in a game and if I want a good story, I?ll go read.