Let's Talk About the Ending of Frozen

[Gxas]

Just got home from this movie.

Loved every second of it and it had me pining for when I watched Lion King and other Disney classics for the first time.

I was expecting the ending to be more of "Elsa kisses Anna on the cheek to thaw her", but holy shit was it better than that.

So pleased with that movie. I want to watch it again. Might go tomorrow.

 

[MovieBob]

Are people really so uncomfortable about sexuality that any character not proven to be straight MUST be because the character was meant to be homosexual? She didn't have a love interest because she didn't. She's 18! She has an entire off-screen "happily ever after" to potentially meet a love interest.

I don't think people would be jumping to that conclusion (metaphorical or otherwise) if it were "only" that she has no onscreen romantic interest. But when coupled with the fact that her story is cast as a coming-out narrative - she's been (literally) in a closet most of her life because of a "difference" she was born with, can't control and fears will make her ostracized, she flees her home/hometown, with the safety of distance can finally cut loose and experiment with said "difference," and by doing so becomes her true-self and concludes that her "difference" is not only okay but kind of awesome and joyous... in that context, it paints a plausible (if by no means definitive) picture IMO.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Are people really so uncomfortable about sexuality that any character not proven to be straight MUST be because the character was meant to be homosexual? She didn't have a love interest because she didn't. She's 18! She has an entire off-screen "happily ever after" to potentially meet a love interest.

I don't think people would be jumping to that conclusion (metaphorical or otherwise) if it were "only" that she has no onscreen romantic interest. But when coupled with the fact that her story is cast as a coming-out narrative - she's been (literally) in a closet most of her life because of a "difference" she was born with, can't control and fears will make her ostracized, she flees her home/hometown, with the safety of distance can finally cut loose and experiment with said "difference," and by doing so becomes her true-self and concludes that her "difference" is not only okay but kind of awesome and joyous... in that context, it paints a plausible (if by no means definitive) picture IMO.

Yeah, looking at it from that angle, I can see how people might come to the conclusion that she's meant to be a metaphor for homosexuality. If nothing else, it's definitely a better excuse than what I thought was leading people to jump to that conclusion.

 

[scorptatious]

Wholeheartedly agree Bob.

That was one of the most well executed twists I've seen in a children's film.

There was one thing that happened that hasn't been mentioned, but I loved seeing it in the movie. At the end, Kristoff deliberately states to Anna that he would like to kiss her. It's a minor thing, but promoting the idea of proactive consent is also quite outside the box and I loved seeing it.

I like that bit too. It was nice they didn't have these characters go straight into marriage like these kinds of movies usually do.

 

[Norix596]

Makes me wonder though. If the movie succeeds, will they credit that to the marketing? If the movie fails, will they credit that to the twist and message?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/movies/frozen-disneys-new-fairy-tale-is-no-2-at-box-office.html?hpw&rref=arts

To answer your question, it would appear the (in my opinion at least) totally incompetent marketing team is getting the credit. To be fair, we don't (and never will know) if the movie would have been a success if it was advertised as what it was - a character driven story about the relationship between two estranged sisters and concerns about self-acceptance)- as opposed to a nondescript "family adventure movie" that it appeared to be.

I had totally written it off until I saw moviebob's review. Buuuuut on the other hand, if it WERE accurately represented, maybe there would have been far fewer attendees.

 

[Orekoya]

More than a few critics and commentators have wondered/suggested that perhaps we're meant to "read" Elsa as being a lesbian, with her powers acting as an unsubtle metaphor for the same the way it does in the X-Men movies - she was, after all, born this way.

I think that sentiment reads a little more into the mentality of the general public than it does for Frozen's narrative. Having just got back from the movie, I never once considered that Elsa might be implied to be a lesbian, nor did it even occur to me to even call her sexuality into question. Are people really so uncomfortable about sexuality that any character not proven to be straight MUST be because the character was meant to be homosexual? She didn't have a love interest because she didn't. She's 18! She has an entire off-screen "happily ever after" to potentially meet a love interest.

Yea I agree, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexuality. However, that question of the people being uncomfortable is unfair and misleading as to why it was mentioned in the first place. The movie used plenty of the essential gayngst dressing kind of stuff: themes of the 'pressure to be normal' and 'overconscientious of societal norms leads to misery' along with the 'dangers of misguided overprotective parents' to name just a few without getting too spoilery or further overlapping with what moviebob talked about. Not saying straight people can't experience these things, but when an entertainment piece touches on these specific subjects, it's usually to talk about a character's non-straight sexuality. It's a media-based conditioned perception.

 

[Jaebird]

Prince Charming not being so charming? Gee, where have I seen that [http://www.comicvine.com/prince-charming/4005-5961/], before?

Snarkiness aside, it's cool to see Disney, the Factory of Happy Endings, apply such a twist to spice things up for the next generation.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

This is completely off-topic, but does anyone else think that the titles of Disney's CGI fairy tale movies are rather terrible?

Tangled and Frozen are just so generic and undescriptive.

 

[Belaam]

Took my 5 year old daughter to it this weekend and we both loved it.

I struggle to find shows that I feel good about her watching, and Frozen made it near the top of the list. Yes, Disney is getting extra credit for doing this, but that's largely because they are otherwise so bad at it, but also so prevalent everywhere else in life.

You can see Mulan at Disneyland - but she's always in the formal attire that she ruins at the beginning of the film. Pink as can be.

Merida is there and generally armed.

That's about it for Disney princesses with a substantial amount of agency.

With Frozen, Disney has doubled the number of self-reliant princesses.

And, theoretically (not sure if he'll ever actually be there), they have added a

Spoiler

handsome prince

to their Villains line-up.

I am absolutely okay with this.

 

[Smokescreen]

Can we make a deal where you WON'T write spoiler articles until at least TWO WEEKS AFTER a film or TV show's major debut?

Because seriously. This is stupid.

 

[guitarsniper]

I always read the actual ending not as Anna's love for Elsa undoing the curse, but Elsa finally being like "my sister was willing to sacrifice herself to save me" and finally understanding Anna and that being what did it. That might be just me, though.

That being said, it was a really well-executed twist that played with your expectations, and I don't know if the ad campaign was there to in part try to get audiences with the necessary expectations into the theater, but it seemed like it was successful in doing so.

 

[pretzil]

Can we make a deal where you WON'T write spoiler articles until at least TWO WEEKS AFTER a film or TV show's major debut?

Because seriously. This is stupid.

Not really, this is a Disney princess movie on a video gaming website, its a fair assumption that the 'this is actually good' message could take 2 weeks by word of mouth before people would actually go out and see it.

 

[Guilen-]

I think Bob's one of the few critics to actually catch the relevance of this film - particularly in understanding how different kids in the target age range could respond and conceivably turn out from having this in their developmental repertoire. It's one of those subtle touches that could seriously affect a generation, and those kinds of things often happen under the critical radar, and for good reason. It's just surprising to see it from a Disney film again. I would argue, however, a few minor points, such as while Anna certainly did make the sacrifice that was responsible for unthawing her own curse, it was Elsa's love, the one thing she had truly been holding back, that was the real cure. In that sense, it was ultimately mutual but there's something about the way Bob puts it that seems like too much of a Kung Fu Panda philosophy than what I believe actually happened in the film. Also, I think it's silly to read lesbian context into Elsa, even though just by being a character that overcomes repression she certainly is loaded with LGBT approval potential! If anything, magic is what she truly keeps in her closet, and that is a metaphor for something other than sexuality, especially given that she isolates herself to explore it. Artists and personalities of particular kinds understand the metaphor very well, especially artists that are forward thinking enough to dare to stir the status quo, whether it be with something as non-volatile as a kid's holiday cartoon or quite otherwise. Awesome work, mate

 

[Trishbot]

I'm actually going to tackle this one, since I walked away with a different interpretation, so maybe it was just my perspective of things...

I think I'm gonna have to agree with most of this. Because honestly, the twist DOES seem pretty forced. I mean it makes sense from an isolated motivation standpoint (wanting to marry a princess to gain power for once in his life, seeing as how was pretty much the runt of his 12 brother family), but I dunno. Maybe if they wouldn't have made Hans so gosh darn likable to start off.

Making him so likable is precisely why the twist works. They didn't tip their hat too early, and the fact that he IS so gosh darn likable makes the act of pulling the rug out from underneath you so much more damaging. You don't just see Anna's shock and confusion when he betrays her; we feel it too, because we, just like her, thought he was a handsome, good guy... and like her, we bought his ruse.

Love Is An Open Door was a totally fun duet song he and Anna had. I liked how they vibed so well and had so much fun chemistry together. And they DID talk about stuff together and had things in common and what not. It did feel like they were legitimately getting to know each other through the fun date they had. Sure it was just a first date, but an AWESOME first date that sometimes does happen when the two of you just click. And even throughout the rest of the film he was acting all legit cool and noble and Good Guy Hans. Bob namedrops PUA, but even then you can tell when a guy is being sincere and when a guy is just using canned lines. So when the axe is dropped and he's all "Muhahaha foolish girl! I never loved you!, I just wasn't feeling it. Seriously, all the dude was missing was a mustache to twirl...THAT'S probably why people found it so 'unpredictable'. Gaston's descent into villiany adds up and feels real when you take everything we've seen and known about him into account. Hans's didn't. They avoided one cliche only to run smack into another one.

Gaston started off as a "bad" dude, just not an "evil" one. Hans actually starts off evil from the start (he had plans of murder in mind before he ever showed up). The whole "Love Is An Open Door" song is SO prototypical Disney that it helps sell the twist later on; this is Disney we're talking about. They built an EMPIRE on "True Love" and "Love at first sight", and their duet would fit perfectly fine in almost every other Disney film, from Snow White's duet with her true love at first sight, to Aurora's duet with her true love at first sight, to even Ariel singing her undying love to Eric at first sight, to Pocahontas singing to John Smith with love at first sight, to Cinderella singing about her true love before she even MEETS the guy... so their duet works perfectly. It's so cute, so charming, so perfect... until Disney "drops the axe". Hearing the song on repeat, you pick up the signs that they're NOT compatible... that, like a first date, he's putting on an act. Yes, sometimes you can have a great first date, but this isn't one of those moments. They're sharing, and bonding, but, as is often the case, one of them isn't being fully honest. He's putting on his best behavior, saying what she WANTS to hear rather than the truth. Things like "We finish each others..." "Sandwiches!" "That's what I was gonna say!" is cute when you first hear it, but he's just kissing up to her and lying about it. Even the line, "All my life I've searched for my own place...", talking about a place of his own rather than a PERSON foreshadows that he wants Arendelle for himself.

Almost EVERY song in the movie is unexpected, and this was no exception. "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" starts off happy and ended with everyone in tears. "First Time in Forever" ends both times with the opposite of what they're saying coming true (something does get in Anna's way, Elsa does lose control, and then later Anna fails to convince Elsa to return and Elsa does hurt Anna, the opposite of their lyrics). "In Summer" is hilarious... and tragic... for a snowman that wants to experience summer but doesn't know it'll kill him. "Let It Go" starts off with self-pity and then ends with triumph... all the songs, including "Love Is An Open Door" have meaning and context beyond their original lyrics and intentions. It's great storytelling via wordplay and music.

This movie already had a strong tragic conflict between the sisters that it didn't NEED a designated antagonist to shoehorn in at the last second. They could have still found a way around that and still kept all the misunderstandings and what not around that lead to the climatic finish. That's basically what this entire movie was indeed all about; all these misunderstandings we all read about each other because of differences tend to cause a lot of problems. Love is understanding. Yada yada yada. Just stay on that path and drop the forced "GOTCHA!" aspect.

The focus was not the "gotcha" (though it was a good twist). Even with Hans as the "antagonist", he's but one of multiple threats. Hans isn't out to kill Anna; Anna's dying already before his betrayal ever happens. Hans didn't freeze the kingdom (and him killing Elsa WOULD end the threat). Elsa's lead foe is her own paralyzing fears and doubts, not Hans. Hans is merely there to work all these problems to his own end, but he's secondary to inner conflicts the two sisters feel... And his presence is merely a story ploy for Anna to truly demonstrate the "act of true love" that saves her sister AND herself. Self-sacrifice. That's love, and she does this by literally throwing herself between the man she once loved, rejecting the salvation of the man she currently loves, and offering her life for the sister she's ALWAYS loved. Hans, like the rest of the movie, was just a tool caught up in the storm.

Like I dunno...have Hans and Anna kiss, but the spell is still there because they really aren't in true love. Anna's like "bwhaaa?", then recollects back to why Hans asked her to marry her so quickly. He sheepishly admits to just wanting her hand for the throne because of his 13th in line insecurities, but quickly redirects the convo with "But that doesn't matter, stay here while I stop your sister for good!" because that's the conclusion he came up with after Elsa told him that she couldn't stop the winter on her own. First Anna freaks out like "DUDE DON'T KILL MY SISTER, but that's also when she pieces together that it's the true love between sisters that's going to thing to break the curse. He later tries to apologize for being kind of a dick (instead of being 100% pure dickbag), but still gets shoo'd off, learning a lesson of his own. Give Kristoff his new sled and you can do whatever you want with him. Me, I don't think this movie needed that romantic pairing either, since the whole message is supposed to subvert the "Love After One Day" trope.

They've actually done that "oh, he's not my REAL true love" thing before ("Enchanted" comes to mind), and everyone in the theater, including me, was thinking "well, Kristoff is her true love. He'll give her the kiss".... but the movie subverts this by having her reject his act of love to instead save her sister. She is not the one that gets saved; she saves HERSELF. All while showing that, you know what, love comes in all shapes and sizes. This isn't Ariel "I'll abandon my life, family, and friends for a guy I don't know"; this is "I will give up my life and happiness for the family I dearly love that needs me". That's a revolutionary message for a Disney film, and it subverted the formula and our expectations... and resulted in a much, much stronger heroine than one that simply gets kissed by Kristoff.

Beyond that, I'm not sure Kristoff and Anna were "true love" at that point anyway, and the film, very wisely, shows the two of them at the end of the movie just STARTING their relationship (not ending it with marriage). In fact, one of the most surprising things is we see Kristoff ASK PERMISSION to kiss her. Asking for consent for love... I think he may be the first Disney hero to actually ask that, if I'm not mistaken. Good on him.

...yet there the trolls were doing just that...

...ya know what, the more I think about it, fuck those trolls. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294629/board/thread/221711034] Those little assholes pretty much started all of this AND made things worse, but they're off to the side and don't get any blame because "D'awwww aren't they so fun and adorable?" I mean, how were they any better than Hans? They were ready to immediately wed their Kristoff off to a girl he's just met [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSHewSZJMYA] as well, completely dismissing the fact that she had a fiance they didn't even know. If anything keeps this film from being up there with the Disney Greats, it's those trolls. They're SUPER problematic morally and just script-wise once you really start to break down their role in the story.

To be fair to the trolls, they were 100% correct. They didn't make things "worse"... the parents did that. Rewatching it, the trolls only tell the parents that her daughter has both great potential yet also could pose a threat... and it's the PARENTS that focus on the THREAT part of it, referring to it as a curse instead of a gift, and tell the trolls THEIR solution is to hide it, and her, away. Fear versus love was the theme of the movie, and the parents gave in to their fears for their daughter rather than nurturing the love she dearly needed. The parents were wrong, but the trolls were right. Granted, they didn't necessarily CORRECT them... but I'm not sure even they knew they'd just lock her up and keep her away from all human contact for years on end.

And that song and dance number?... It took it as playful fun rather than something they meant seriously (apart from the lyrics. The lyrics are very awesome). They openly talked about how relationships need work, and that they can see they have affection for each other but "something" is in the way (and then talk about all the flaws each other has)... Song is great, but I'll freely admit its place in the film was kind of random, and the tone was all wrong at that point (especially considering she's supposed to be dying...). It would've worked better earlier in the film.

 

[xaszatm]

This applies to something like "Frozen" because really I think Disney's work provides a backbone of tradition and optimism that let's people get away from all the crap in real life, and also provides a counterpoint to other, darker, works. Sure "Love At First Sight" doesn't happen very often for example, but it's wonderful when it does, and ultimately presents a sort of optimistic outlook people can enjoy in getting away from reality. While what they did here isn't terrible, I tend to think this messing around with their format is akin to people deciding they want to do things like re-envision Superman as something less than the world saving paragon he's supposed to be, again and again, in doing this kind of thing I think something like "Frozen" ultimately cheapens itself and misses the entire point of the brand it's a part of. What's more, if it's going to play in this league, it shouldn't be given a pass just because it's a Disney movie, in rating it fairly you should start bringing up material that handled the same kind of messages for a young audience, at which point you need to start comparing "Frozen" to the plots and lead ins of various animes, youth oriented novels, movies, and TV shows and the like, at which point it becomes "visually spectacular, but ultimately flat" warranting little more than a "C". The only reason to rate it higher is if your basically projecting some kind of counter-culture victory onto Disney.

I think I'm gonna have to agree with most of this. Because honestly, the twist DOES seem pretty forced. I mean it makes sense from an isolated motivation standpoint (wanting to marry a princess to gain power for once in his life, seeing as how was pretty much the runt of his 12 brother family), but I dunno. Maybe if they wouldn't have made Hans so gosh darn likable to start off.

Love Is An Open Door was a totally fun duet song he and Anna had. I liked how they vibed so well and had so much fun chemistry together. And they DID talk about stuff together and had things in common and what not. It did feel like they were legitimately getting to know each other through the fun date they had. Sure it was just a first date, but an AWESOME first date that sometimes does happen when the two of you just click. And even throughout the rest of the film he was acting all legit cool and noble and Good Guy Hans. Bob namedrops PUA, but even then you can tell when a guy is being sincere and when a guy is just using canned lines. So when the axe is dropped and he's all "Muhahaha foolish girl! I never loved you!, I just wasn't feeling it. Seriously, all the dude was missing was a mustache to twirl...THAT'S probably why people found it so 'unpredictable'. Gaston's descent into villiany adds up and feels real when you take everything we've seen and known about him into account. Hans's didn't. They avoided one cliche only to run smack into another one.

This movie already had a strong tragic conflict between the sisters that it didn't NEED a designated antagonist to shoehorn in at the last second. They could have still found a way around that and still kept all the misunderstandings and what not around that lead to the climatic finish. That's basically what this entire movie was indeed all about; all these misunderstandings we all read about each other because of differences tend to cause a lot of problems. Love is understanding. Yada yada yada. Just stay on that path and drop the forced "GOTCHA!" aspect.

Like I dunno...have Hans and Anna kiss, but the spell is still there because they really aren't in true love. Anna's like "bwhaaa?", then recollects back to why Hans asked her to marry her so quickly. He sheepishly admits to just wanting her hand for the throne because of his 13th in line insecurities, but quickly redirects the convo with "But that doesn't matter, stay here while I stop your sister for good!" because that's the conclusion he came up with after Elsa told him that she couldn't stop the winter on her own. First Anna freaks out like "DUDE DON'T KILL MY SISTER, but that's also when she pieces together that it's the true love between sisters that's going to thing to break the curse. He later tries to apologize for being kind of a dick (instead of being 100% pure dickbag), but still gets shoo'd off, learning a lesson of his own. Give Kristoff his new sled and you can do whatever you want with him. Me, I don't think this movie needed that romantic pairing either, since the whole message is supposed to subvert the "Love After One Day" trope.

...yet there the trolls were doing just that...

...ya know what, the more I think about it, fuck those trolls. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294629/board/thread/221711034] Those little assholes pretty much started all of this AND made things worse, but they're off to the side and don't get any blame because "D'awwww aren't they so fun and adorable?" I mean, how were they any better than Hans? They were ready to immediately wed their Kristoff off to a girl he's just met [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSHewSZJMYA] as well, completely dismissing the fact that she had a fiance they didn't even know. If anything keeps this film from being up there with the Disney Greats, it's those trolls. They're SUPER problematic morally and just script-wise once you really start to break down their role in the story.

I would ultimately give it like a B-, 7.5/10. There was a lot I really liked about it, but more cracks start to show when you hold it under scrutiny.

Actually, watching the film again...it's not completely out of the blue. Hans true nature is actually shown throughout the entire film, it's just VERY low key. For instance, if you actually listen to the lyrics of the his duet, "Love is an Open Door," it quickly becomes apparent that he's not talking about Anna at all. "I?ve been searching my whole life to find my own place, But with you I found my own place and it's nothing like I've ever known before." You just thinking about what he's saying because he isn't giving off any visual cues and is singing a secondary part to Anna's primary. In other instances, there is the Duke's plans causing a bigger show of villainy to throw us off.

The trolls still are a nuisance though...

 

[Smokescreen]

Can we make a deal where you WON'T write spoiler articles until at least TWO WEEKS AFTER a film or TV show's major debut?

Because seriously. This is stupid.

Not really, this is a Disney princess movie on a video gaming website, its a fair assumption that the 'this is actually good' message could take 2 weeks by word of mouth before people would actually go out and see it.

I have no idea what you're on about. I am suggesting that MovieBob-and others-not write spoiler-related/keyed articles until a pleasantly defined length of time so people have an opportunity to experience whatever media they're on about, instead of having them appear the day of the media's debut.

What are you trying to communicate back?