I don't think people would be jumping to that conclusion (metaphorical or otherwise) if it were "only" that she has no onscreen romantic interest. But when coupled with the fact that her story is cast as a coming-out narrative - she's been (literally) in a closet most of her life because of a "difference" she was born with, can't control and fears will make her ostracized, she flees her home/hometown, with the safety of distance can finally cut loose and experiment with said "difference," and by doing so becomes her true-self and concludes that her "difference" is not only okay but kind of awesome and joyous... in that context, it paints a plausible (if by no means definitive) picture IMO.WhiteTigerShiro said:
Let's Talk About the Ending of Frozen
- Thread starter MovieBob
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Yeah, looking at it from that angle, I can see how people might come to the conclusion that she's meant to be a metaphor for homosexuality. If nothing else, it's definitely a better excuse than what I thought was leading people to jump to that conclusion.MovieBob said:
Wholeheartedly agree Bob.
That was one of the most well executed twists I've seen in a children's film.
That was one of the most well executed twists I've seen in a children's film.
I like that bit too. It was nice they didn't have these characters go straight into marriage like these kinds of movies usually do.Meander112 said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/movies/frozen-disneys-new-fairy-tale-is-no-2-at-box-office.html?hpw&rref=artsShirowShirow said:
To answer your question, it would appear the (in my opinion at least) totally incompetent marketing team is getting the credit. To be fair, we don't (and never will know) if the movie would have been a success if it was advertised as what it was - a character driven story about the relationship between two estranged sisters and concerns about self-acceptance)- as opposed to a nondescript "family adventure movie" that it appeared to be.
I had totally written it off until I saw moviebob's review. Buuuuut on the other hand, if it WERE accurately represented, maybe there would have been far fewer attendees.
Yea I agree, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexuality. However, that question of the people being uncomfortable is unfair and misleading as to why it was mentioned in the first place. The movie used plenty of the essential gayngst dressing kind of stuff: themes of the 'pressure to be normal' and 'overconscientious of societal norms leads to misery' along with the 'dangers of misguided overprotective parents' to name just a few without getting too spoilery or further overlapping with what moviebob talked about. Not saying straight people can't experience these things, but when an entertainment piece touches on these specific subjects, it's usually to talk about a character's non-straight sexuality. It's a media-based conditioned perception.WhiteTigerShiro said:
Prince Charming not being so charming? Gee, where have I seen that [http://www.comicvine.com/prince-charming/4005-5961/], before?
Snarkiness aside, it's cool to see Disney, the Factory of Happy Endings, apply such a twist to spice things up for the next generation.
Snarkiness aside, it's cool to see Disney, the Factory of Happy Endings, apply such a twist to spice things up for the next generation.
This is completely off-topic, but does anyone else think that the titles of Disney's CGI fairy tale movies are rather terrible?
Tangled and Frozen are just so generic and undescriptive.
Tangled and Frozen are just so generic and undescriptive.
Took my 5 year old daughter to it this weekend and we both loved it.
I struggle to find shows that I feel good about her watching, and Frozen made it near the top of the list. Yes, Disney is getting extra credit for doing this, but that's largely because they are otherwise so bad at it, but also so prevalent everywhere else in life.
You can see Mulan at Disneyland - but she's always in the formal attire that she ruins at the beginning of the film. Pink as can be.
Merida is there and generally armed.
That's about it for Disney princesses with a substantial amount of agency.
With Frozen, Disney has doubled the number of self-reliant princesses.
And, theoretically (not sure if he'll ever actually be there), they have added a
to their Villains line-up.
I am absolutely okay with this.
I struggle to find shows that I feel good about her watching, and Frozen made it near the top of the list. Yes, Disney is getting extra credit for doing this, but that's largely because they are otherwise so bad at it, but also so prevalent everywhere else in life.
You can see Mulan at Disneyland - but she's always in the formal attire that she ruins at the beginning of the film. Pink as can be.
Merida is there and generally armed.
That's about it for Disney princesses with a substantial amount of agency.
With Frozen, Disney has doubled the number of self-reliant princesses.
And, theoretically (not sure if he'll ever actually be there), they have added a
handsome prince
I am absolutely okay with this.
Can we make a deal where you WON'T write spoiler articles until at least TWO WEEKS AFTER a film or TV show's major debut?
Because seriously. This is stupid.
Because seriously. This is stupid.
I always read the actual ending not as Anna's love for Elsa undoing the curse, but Elsa finally being like "my sister was willing to sacrifice herself to save me" and finally understanding Anna and that being what did it. That might be just me, though.
That being said, it was a really well-executed twist that played with your expectations, and I don't know if the ad campaign was there to in part try to get audiences with the necessary expectations into the theater, but it seemed like it was successful in doing so.
That being said, it was a really well-executed twist that played with your expectations, and I don't know if the ad campaign was there to in part try to get audiences with the necessary expectations into the theater, but it seemed like it was successful in doing so.
I think Bob's one of the few critics to actually catch the relevance of this film - particularly in understanding how different kids in the target age range could respond and conceivably turn out from having this in their developmental repertoire. It's one of those subtle touches that could seriously affect a generation, and those kinds of things often happen under the critical radar, and for good reason. It's just surprising to see it from a Disney film again. I would argue, however, a few minor points, such as while Anna certainly did make the sacrifice that was responsible for unthawing her own curse, it was Elsa's love, the one thing she had truly been holding back, that was the real cure. In that sense, it was ultimately mutual but there's something about the way Bob puts it that seems like too much of a Kung Fu Panda philosophy than what I believe actually happened in the film. Also, I think it's silly to read lesbian context into Elsa, even though just by being a character that overcomes repression she certainly is loaded with LGBT approval potential! If anything, magic is what she truly keeps in her closet, and that is a metaphor for something other than sexuality, especially given that she isolates herself to explore it. Artists and personalities of particular kinds understand the metaphor very well, especially artists that are forward thinking enough to dare to stir the status quo, whether it be with something as non-volatile as a kid's holiday cartoon or quite otherwise. Awesome work, mate 
I'm actually going to tackle this one, since I walked away with a different interpretation, so maybe it was just my perspective of things...
Almost EVERY song in the movie is unexpected, and this was no exception. "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" starts off happy and ended with everyone in tears. "First Time in Forever" ends both times with the opposite of what they're saying coming true (something does get in Anna's way, Elsa does lose control, and then later Anna fails to convince Elsa to return and Elsa does hurt Anna, the opposite of their lyrics). "In Summer" is hilarious... and tragic... for a snowman that wants to experience summer but doesn't know it'll kill him. "Let It Go" starts off with self-pity and then ends with triumph... all the songs, including "Love Is An Open Door" have meaning and context beyond their original lyrics and intentions. It's great storytelling via wordplay and music.
Beyond that, I'm not sure Kristoff and Anna were "true love" at that point anyway, and the film, very wisely, shows the two of them at the end of the movie just STARTING their relationship (not ending it with marriage). In fact, one of the most surprising things is we see Kristoff ASK PERMISSION to kiss her. Asking for consent for love... I think he may be the first Disney hero to actually ask that, if I'm not mistaken. Good on him.
And that song and dance number?... It took it as playful fun rather than something they meant seriously (apart from the lyrics. The lyrics are very awesome). They openly talked about how relationships need work, and that they can see they have affection for each other but "something" is in the way (and then talk about all the flaws each other has)... Song is great, but I'll freely admit its place in the film was kind of random, and the tone was all wrong at that point (especially considering she's supposed to be dying...). It would've worked better earlier in the film.
Making him so likable is precisely why the twist works. They didn't tip their hat too early, and the fact that he IS so gosh darn likable makes the act of pulling the rug out from underneath you so much more damaging. You don't just see Anna's shock and confusion when he betrays her; we feel it too, because we, just like her, thought he was a handsome, good guy... and like her, we bought his ruse.The Dubya said:
Gaston started off as a "bad" dude, just not an "evil" one. Hans actually starts off evil from the start (he had plans of murder in mind before he ever showed up). The whole "Love Is An Open Door" song is SO prototypical Disney that it helps sell the twist later on; this is Disney we're talking about. They built an EMPIRE on "True Love" and "Love at first sight", and their duet would fit perfectly fine in almost every other Disney film, from Snow White's duet with her true love at first sight, to Aurora's duet with her true love at first sight, to even Ariel singing her undying love to Eric at first sight, to Pocahontas singing to John Smith with love at first sight, to Cinderella singing about her true love before she even MEETS the guy... so their duet works perfectly. It's so cute, so charming, so perfect... until Disney "drops the axe". Hearing the song on repeat, you pick up the signs that they're NOT compatible... that, like a first date, he's putting on an act. Yes, sometimes you can have a great first date, but this isn't one of those moments. They're sharing, and bonding, but, as is often the case, one of them isn't being fully honest. He's putting on his best behavior, saying what she WANTS to hear rather than the truth. Things like "We finish each others..." "Sandwiches!" "That's what I was gonna say!" is cute when you first hear it, but he's just kissing up to her and lying about it. Even the line, "All my life I've searched for my own place...", talking about a place of his own rather than a PERSON foreshadows that he wants Arendelle for himself.
Almost EVERY song in the movie is unexpected, and this was no exception. "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" starts off happy and ended with everyone in tears. "First Time in Forever" ends both times with the opposite of what they're saying coming true (something does get in Anna's way, Elsa does lose control, and then later Anna fails to convince Elsa to return and Elsa does hurt Anna, the opposite of their lyrics). "In Summer" is hilarious... and tragic... for a snowman that wants to experience summer but doesn't know it'll kill him. "Let It Go" starts off with self-pity and then ends with triumph... all the songs, including "Love Is An Open Door" have meaning and context beyond their original lyrics and intentions. It's great storytelling via wordplay and music.
The focus was not the "gotcha" (though it was a good twist). Even with Hans as the "antagonist", he's but one of multiple threats. Hans isn't out to kill Anna; Anna's dying already before his betrayal ever happens. Hans didn't freeze the kingdom (and him killing Elsa WOULD end the threat). Elsa's lead foe is her own paralyzing fears and doubts, not Hans. Hans is merely there to work all these problems to his own end, but he's secondary to inner conflicts the two sisters feel... And his presence is merely a story ploy for Anna to truly demonstrate the "act of true love" that saves her sister AND herself. Self-sacrifice. That's love, and she does this by literally throwing herself between the man she once loved, rejecting the salvation of the man she currently loves, and offering her life for the sister she's ALWAYS loved. Hans, like the rest of the movie, was just a tool caught up in the storm.
They've actually done that "oh, he's not my REAL true love" thing before ("Enchanted" comes to mind), and everyone in the theater, including me, was thinking "well, Kristoff is her true love. He'll give her the kiss".... but the movie subverts this by having her reject his act of love to instead save her sister. She is not the one that gets saved; she saves HERSELF. All while showing that, you know what, love comes in all shapes and sizes. This isn't Ariel "I'll abandon my life, family, and friends for a guy I don't know"; this is "I will give up my life and happiness for the family I dearly love that needs me". That's a revolutionary message for a Disney film, and it subverted the formula and our expectations... and resulted in a much, much stronger heroine than one that simply gets kissed by Kristoff.
Beyond that, I'm not sure Kristoff and Anna were "true love" at that point anyway, and the film, very wisely, shows the two of them at the end of the movie just STARTING their relationship (not ending it with marriage). In fact, one of the most surprising things is we see Kristoff ASK PERMISSION to kiss her. Asking for consent for love... I think he may be the first Disney hero to actually ask that, if I'm not mistaken. Good on him.
To be fair to the trolls, they were 100% correct. They didn't make things "worse"... the parents did that. Rewatching it, the trolls only tell the parents that her daughter has both great potential yet also could pose a threat... and it's the PARENTS that focus on the THREAT part of it, referring to it as a curse instead of a gift, and tell the trolls THEIR solution is to hide it, and her, away. Fear versus love was the theme of the movie, and the parents gave in to their fears for their daughter rather than nurturing the love she dearly needed. The parents were wrong, but the trolls were right. Granted, they didn't necessarily CORRECT them... but I'm not sure even they knew they'd just lock her up and keep her away from all human contact for years on end.
And that song and dance number?... It took it as playful fun rather than something they meant seriously (apart from the lyrics. The lyrics are very awesome). They openly talked about how relationships need work, and that they can see they have affection for each other but "something" is in the way (and then talk about all the flaws each other has)... Song is great, but I'll freely admit its place in the film was kind of random, and the tone was all wrong at that point (especially considering she's supposed to be dying...). It would've worked better earlier in the film.
Actually, watching the film again...it's not completely out of the blue. Hans true nature is actually shown throughout the entire film, it's just VERY low key. For instance, if you actually listen to the lyrics of the his duet, "Love is an Open Door," it quickly becomes apparent that he's not talking about Anna at all. "I?ve been searching my whole life to find my own place, But with you I found my own place and it's nothing like I've ever known before." You just thinking about what he's saying because he isn't giving off any visual cues and is singing a secondary part to Anna's primary. In other instances, there is the Duke's plans causing a bigger show of villainy to throw us off.The Dubya said:
The trolls still are a nuisance though...
I have no idea what you're on about. I am suggesting that MovieBob-and others-not write spoiler-related/keyed articles until a pleasantly defined length of time so people have an opportunity to experience whatever media they're on about, instead of having them appear the day of the media's debut.pretzil said:
What are you trying to communicate back?
I disagree, he doesn't have TOO many genuine positives...he just acts like he does. The thing with Hans is that everything he does up till the reveal is superficial. If you stop and actually listen to his lines, it shows that he isn't the kind person he's portraying. While I do feel that the hints are a bit too subtle, they are there. From the point when he firsts meets Anna there and onward. Heck, in his only song, if you actually listen to his words, he's not actually singing about Anna, he's singing about himself. But not only is Anna fooled, so is the audience because Anna is singing above him. Even going to their first meeting, really pay attention to how Hans seems more interested in Elsa than Anna. Notice how he calls Anna "ordinary." There are signs, but aren't really noticeable the first time through.The Dubya said:
So...because he's not the force behind all the problems and because he acts nice, he's not the true villain? Well, I can certainly see your point but I disagree. You are saying that all the nice things he did (Help the kingdom, Prevent Elsa from dying...yeah, that's it) are genuine. I think the main difference is that you're seeing him as a "normal" person. I see him as a sociopath. Someone who is willing to manipulate the world to get what he wants.
Furthermore...bravery and competence doesn't have to belong to the hero alone. Which leaves "caring" he shared between Anna, Elsa, and Arendelle. Well, obviously he cares for Arendelle, he wants to rule it. Helping out will make his ascension much easier if they like him. What? Expect the villain to make himself unpopular with his subjects? That's going to go so well.
As for Anna and Elsa...again, listen to his words, they sound caring...but there extremely shallow. I'm not saying that Love at First Sight never happens, but name one quality Hans says about Anna...ever. He doesn't, he just lets Anna carry the conversation and nods and goes along with it. And caring for Elsa? I suppose you are talking about the scene where she is about to kill the two men. Well, again think about this politically, Hans needs Elsa back. Of course he's going to persuade her not to use her powers to kill. If she kills them, he thinks it would be easier to kill him should he make a wrong move.
And as I'm saying, Hans ISN'T a Cobra Commander type villain. He's isn't trying to take over the world, he's ruining the lives of two women. It's not the goal of his (That's to become king) but manipulating two people? That's far more realistic of a villain than MOST Disney has put out there.
Furthermore, you're telling me that Hans doesn't exist in real life? Seriously? Two words: "Nice Guys." You know that meme? People who are real entitled petty people who have a false exterior? That's Hans entire persona.
I still have problems with those trolls though...
Again, I think we just walked out of the film with different interpretations.
But, also, Hans DID care about the people and the sisters... as means to an end. He cared about them in the same sense that he wanted them on HIS side only as long as he needed them. He wanted them to trust HIM. When something "happened" to them (he said he was going to stage an accident), he wanted both the sister and the people to trust in him so they'd never suspect he was involved.
That's the WHOLE POINT. A "ruse" isn't something you SHOULD see coming. If his demeanor felt like a ruse, then it would be a bad ruse. Every last single act that Hans does in the movie is serving his own goals. ALL his positives all serve his benefit, even the ones that outwardly appear like "love" or "kindness" to others (notice how all of these actions are taken when others are watching him, yet the one time he's alone and sure he's going to get away with it he reveals his hand.) Giving blankets to the poor and cold wins him the approval of the people; he comes across as a selfless and valiant hero trying to "save" the queen and princess, etc. He's the best kind of evil; the one who gets the people on his side, trusting his decisions, without ever twirling his mustache or dropping his guard.The Dubya said:
The WHOLE song doesn't "feel" right (notice how he only AGREES with Anna and never actually expresses any personal traits of his own AT ALL), and the whole "I have 12 older brothers" means he was never going to be high up the royal food chain. But more of that below...
But WE the audience weren't SUPPOSED to know he's evil. That's sort of the point. Beyond that, he came to the coronation prepared to woo one of the two sisters; he did his homework, put on the facade, and rolled with everything Anna said (no matter how silly or stupid some of it was....)
I think all the pieces fall in line. His bizarre eagerness to get married (HE wasn't sheltered like Anna was), some hint his duet with her, his origin and history, the fact that only HE showed up for the coronation (and no one else from his kingdom), the way he takes charge of the whole kingdom so readily (and offers Anna absolute no escort on her journey), etc. He said all the right things and was in all the right places, even if there were some twists and turns he had to deal with... More on THOSE below...
He says he was going to murder ELSA and marry ANNA for the power. He wasn't going to kill Anna because he needed her alive to marry her. He even says Elsa was who he wanted to marry, but she was too unapproachable, but Anna practically threw the door open for him ("Love is an Open Door"... huh). He saw his 'in' and took it. He didn't plan everything that happened; his plans shifted as the twists game. He was opportunistic and seized the moments. When Anna was dying, he saw yet another opportunity to speed up his plans. He was malleable rather than rigid in his aims, and that's a more realistic villain. He didn't know what Elsa could do, didn't expect the freak out, didn't expect her to leave... but he capitalized on the tragedy like the opportunistic vulture he was, all the while turning their tragedies to his benefit.
The Duke still IS a villain. He never stopped being one. But he wasn't on the same level as Hans was. He also wasn't the major instigator of Elsa's freak out; Anna did that too her, and Elsa probably would have fled regardless of the Duke's presence there or not (though he certainly didn't help matters).
But, also, Hans DID care about the people and the sisters... as means to an end. He cared about them in the same sense that he wanted them on HIS side only as long as he needed them. He wanted them to trust HIM. When something "happened" to them (he said he was going to stage an accident), he wanted both the sister and the people to trust in him so they'd never suspect he was involved.
It makes total, complete sense. Nothing he says or does contradicts his actions. You just felt he didn't let the audience in on his plans enough before the twist, but that doesn't mean his plans didn't make sense. They actually made a LOT of sense.
Yes you can. It's called acting. And a good villain will do good things to keep the blame from falling on his or her shoulders. The BEST villains do that and absolve themselves of blame, often playing the part of wolves in sheep's clothing. I mean, he wasn't designed "obviously" ugly and evil like, say, Jafar or Ursula, but both of those villains all did "good" things as a means to their end (Ursula made Ariel's dreams come true, after all, and Jafar freed Aladdin from prison and led him to the cave of wonders). Hans just kept his Poker face and became, perhaps for the first time in Disney history, an EFFECTIVE villain but not looking or dressing or sounding the part. Because, guess what ladies, villains and scumbags can be hot guys only looking to use you and telling you what you want to hear to get their way... (ooh, good life lesson there, in fact.)
I don't see how the kingdom would've been doomed without her (he would've been there to lead them and the winter would likely have ended if she wasn't around to control or create it). But, yes, obviously "true love" ended it in a much better fashion than in bloodshed. Not that he knew that.
But he's not a cliche. How can he be a cliche if there is literally NO other villain like him in a Disney movie before, and the sheer absence of which is how he manages to pull the wool over so many people's eyes? He's actually an ANTI-cliche in the Disney formula.
Tell that to the people who took advantage of me, my innocence, and my trust. You bet it happens in real life. You bet it happened to ME. And you bet this is a message that I wish Disney had taught my younger self rather than "a handsome prince will solve your troubles". The lesson of "looks can be deceiving" and "beauty is only skin deep" and "sometimes men lie to you to get what they want"... that definitely happens in real life every single day.
Er, that's exactly what HAPPENS.
And they got it. Guess what? You're right. She doesn't have as much "chemistry" with Kristoff because he's not pretending to be her dream guy. She and Hans had chemistry because he was telling her everything she wanted to hear, not sharing the things that were true about him. Kristoff, however, shares his flaws, his quirks, and the parts of himself that aren't so perfect, and, well, that's the whole reason he, like EVERY person, is a "fix 'er upper" rather than a "dream guy". The whole point of their relationship is it's built on honesty and acceptance, which takes TIME, rather than immediate infatuation with superficial characteristics that turns out one person was only saying to please the other.
Anna saves Elsa from Hans, and it's that self-sacrifice that thaws her (and breaks the "curse" on Elsa to manage her powers). Elsa didn't "magically cry" her back to life; her own actions, her "act of true love" to sacrifice herself for her sister, was the catalyst that broke the curse. She saved her sister, herself, and the whole kingdom, and she didn't need Hans or Kristoff to kiss her to make it happen.Also, Elsa saves Anna.
Jusssst sayin'
To be accurate it's been done before by Disney, it is just not often done in a film with princess in them. Which, yeah, any aberration from the set model can be subversive for a Disney Princess movie. Lilo and Stitch and Mulan are good examples of movies that deal with familial love. Most Disney princesses aren't put in a position where they have to choose romantic love over familial love (or vise versa) like in Frozen. Mostly because family members play such a small role in such films, they are either dead, or already have the protagonist's unconditional love. With your Ariel example, for a second at the end it was just a conflict between Ariel, King Trident, and Ursula. First King Trident exchanges himself for Ariel which actually makes Ariel angry enough to Attack Ursula. But of course the prince has to butt in and muddy the situation and it goes back to the romantic plotTrishbot said:
. A more complete example of what you are talking about might be the Pocahontas movie(s).