Level scaling, why is this a thing?

[SecondPrize]

Consider this with me. You are making a game. On the one hand you can add a leveling system, and to keep the challenge level consistent you can add a level scaling system. Or you could have skipped all that since they cancel each other out getting the same result without all the extra work. So why do game makers do the former so often?!

What is the point of adding a system to your game, just to turn around and cancel it out? If you want to add abilities with the levels that don't get cancelled out, then add them without the leveling and level scaling. You're basically doing DMC or numerous other action titles with soft leveling systems. You don't need to add a leveling system that is literally pointless.

At the very best, these systems are perfect cancels and do nothing overall. At worst, they don't properly scale and potentially over-scale making the game harder as you level up. The mid point is a game that reduces the effects of levels, but if you just wanted reduced effect from leveling, do so directly without the level scaling. You don't need to give the character 10 points per level, you can give them 1.

So why? Why do they waste time doing this? Is it just that they're REALLY attached to having a "leveling" system? If so, does that actually impress you as a person looking for a game? I know it doesn't me as I immediately roll my eyes knowing the developer at best wasted time in development. So what's the deal?

It's a thing because level scaling doesn't cancel out a leveling system. Scaling doesn't make attribute points or feats you chose disappear. It doesn't eliminate a lot of things leveling can be used for. The only thing it does is make it so you can't over-level an area. This is not cancellation.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Consider this with me. You are making a game. On the one hand you can add a leveling system, and to keep the challenge level consistent you can add a level scaling system. Or you could have skipped all that since they cancel each other out getting the same result without all the extra work. So why do game makers do the former so often?!

What is the point of adding a system to your game, just to turn around and cancel it out? If you want to add abilities with the levels that don't get cancelled out, then add them without the leveling and level scaling. You're basically doing DMC or numerous other action titles with soft leveling systems. You don't need to add a leveling system that is literally pointless.

At the very best, these systems are perfect cancels and do nothing overall. At worst, they don't properly scale and potentially over-scale making the game harder as you level up. The mid point is a game that reduces the effects of levels, but if you just wanted reduced effect from leveling, do so directly without the level scaling. You don't need to give the character 10 points per level, you can give them 1.

So why? Why do they waste time doing this? Is it just that they're REALLY attached to having a "leveling" system? If so, does that actually impress you as a person looking for a game? I know it doesn't me as I immediately roll my eyes knowing the developer at best wasted time in development. So what's the deal?

It's a thing because level scaling doesn't cancel out a leveling system. Scaling doesn't make attribute points or feats you chose disappear. It doesn't eliminate a lot of things leveling can be used for. The only thing it does is make it so you can't over-level an area. This is not cancellation.

Can't over level, that's a problem in my opinion. That's just limiting play styles.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

I think the best level-scaling by far is the one where an area will be set to have enemies with levels, I dunno, 10-15. So at their lowest scaled level, they'll be 10, if the if the player hits the 16th level, they can't scale anymore because they're capped at 15.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

It really depends. In open world games where there's a lot of freedom, it's basically a requirement, in some capacity (It can be implemented in many ways, though).

Like, imagine if Skyrim had no level scaling. So you finish the overlong intro at level 5 and go "Sweet! Time to hot-foot it over to Markarth, I wanna start there!" So you jog along the road, and suddenly a level 34 bandit fucks up your day in one hit.

"Fine" you say. "I wanted to join the theives guild anyway, might as well go to riften". And you manage to make it there with no incident and sneak through some of the first encounters in the Ratway. Then you turn the corner and a level 40 skeever jumps out and tears your whole face off in one hit.

So, after these incidents, you come to the conclusion that you have to go to Whiterun and start there doing the story quests and the first 2 or 3 Comapnions quests (before they get too hard), or maybe going to handle Solitude which is a level 20 area that you can JUUUUST handle if you use a lot of stealth and backstabs.

With the level scaling, you are free to go anywhere from the word go.

Now, that being said, the "Bandit in Daedric gear" scenario is dumb. Certain enemies SHOULD cap out at a certain point (in fact, you should be able to go "Hey, dipshit. I'm the goddamn Dohvahkin. I am WEARING a dragon. Are you SERIOUSLY mugging me?" at a high enough level and he just sheepishly goes "Oh...My mistake." and runs like hell), and new enemies should come in in the later game (like, foreign Daedric armor assassins, or elite hitmen from the Thalmor, etc).

That, or leveling shouldn't be about stats, it should just unlock more abilities, and enemy progression should be tied to your actions (kill a lot of bandits? They send out hitmen. Join the Empire? Now you have to fight Stormcloak patrols on the road. Do the Cihdna mine quest? Now you have to deal with either tough thugs from the Silver blood family or roaming Forsworn out to get you all over the map. That kind of thing)

 

[bificommander]

It can work, if both you and the level scaled enemies get abilities that fundamentally play different. If, on the other hand, you replace your plasma cannons with Mk2 plasma cannons while the enemies get Mk2 shields... yeah, then it's pointless.

I also wouldn't mind getting some story-driven level scaling. Oh, I'm the chosen one destined to fight the great evil? Sure, I'll get right on that after I do some sidequests. Oh, but while I was doing that, the great evil send some demonic troops that slaughtered both the civilians and the random encounters in several north-eastern towns. Ideally, connect this to multiple endings. Make it a trade-off to take time to level, making battles easier, and killing the BBEG's minions early before they lay waste to half the countryside.

 

[WeepingAngels]

It can work, if both you and the level scaled enemies get abilities that fundamentally play different. If, on the other hand, you replace your plasma cannons with Mk2 plasma cannons while the enemies get Mk2 shields... yeah, then it's pointless.

I also wouldn't mind getting some story-driven level scaling. Oh, I'm the chosen one destined to fight the great evil? Sure, I'll get right on that after I do some sidequests. Oh, but while I was doing that, the great evil send some demonic troops that slaughtered both the civilians and the random encounters in several north-eastern towns. Ideally, connect this to multiple endings. Make it a trade-off to take time to level, making battles easier, and killing the BBEG's minions early before they lay waste to half the countryside.

Everyone loves timers?
This is an example of sucking the fun out of a game in the name of realism.

 

[crypticracer]

That, or leveling shouldn't be about stats, it should just unlock more abilities, and enemy progression should be tied to your actions (kill a lot of bandits? They send out hitmen. Join the Empire? Now you have to fight Stormcloak patrols on the road. Do the Cihdna mine quest? Now you have to deal with either tough thugs from the Silver blood family or roaming Forsworn out to get you all over the map. That kind of thing)

Ooh ooh This please. I would like more game to do this.

Not being able to hurt a certain enemy until a certain level is stupid. Oh, this level 12 enemy is immune to my attack. Now I'm level 7 and can hurt him, even if I'm using the same weapon. The is an inorganic unsatisfying and artificial way to create "progression." I also see why people consider level scaling a form of artificial progression. There is an obvious middle ground here, but it seems like most games stick to the fringes. (though there are games that have had reasons to do so... I guess.)

 

[Elijin]

Scaling done right: Destiny.

Things can be tougher than you, and you know about it. You can leave enemies in the dust, and you still know about it. But, its done so in a way where visiting those lower level areas, captures both the feeling of being powerful, yet also still having engaging gameplay.

Scaling done wrong: Oblivion.
There is never any real sense of progress. The bandits who assailed you the first time you walked out of town, will now assail you in full daedric armour.

 

[Amir Kondori]

When you have something like Oblivion, where you not only have a poorly designed leveling system that could see the rate of character development differ as wildly as 5x between different characters but you also have level scaling that effects every enemy in the game, you get a really broken experience.

Skyrim fixes a lot of this by first putting the amount of power gained per level at a fixed amount, one perk and one stat, and also putting level ranges for all enemies, so you don't end up with level 100 bandits. It made sense in Skyrim, a huge open world sandbox game where players are expected to play for anywhere from 40 to hundreds of hours.

As with all things game design the problem isn't level scaling, it is why you are using level scaling.

 

[K12]

Oblivion was ruined for me by the level scaling. I was trying to role-play rather than acting in the somewhat counter-intuitive way you need to optimise your character and it started to become gradually harder and harder for me to return to already cleared areas or exploring new ones. It also made the whole world feel samey and pointless to explore because I felt like I would find more or less the same enemies that fit my level wherever I went.

Having some level scaling makes sense if your character's power increases dramatically over the course of the game and if the areas aren't set out linearly or if you need to return to some areas later. It's important though to have areas that are relatively safe and relatively challenging too and even occassionally encountering an enemy of far too high a level (preferably with it's power being nice and obvious with a manageable way to escape) is a great motivator [i.e. I'm going to come back and totally fuck that bastard up after a few more hours of play.].

Dragon Age: Inquisition did the latter quite well by having two high level enemies (a giant and a dragon) fight each other. It's a good "here's what's coming later" tease and you then get to finish off an injured giant after the dragon flies off who you probably would've stood no change against if it was at full health.

I'm also fine with the entire world scaling dependent on key quest missions

 

[Proto Taco]

Because leveling, like life counts before it, is a poor excuse for game advancement and difficulty. There are better ways to define difficulty and character advancement, but leveling is the 'easy button.'

Unless you're a MMO. If you're a MMO like World of Warcraft then properly implemented leveling systems are a great way to manipulate your player base.

Level scaling is often used as a bandaid to allow utilization of the leveling 'easy button' while not committing yourself to all the ways it inherently breaks the system. Pretty much any Legend of Zelda game is a great example of well done character advancement without leveling.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Because leveling, like life counts before it, is a poor excuse for game advancement and difficulty. There are better ways to define difficulty and character advancement, but leveling is the 'easy button.'

Unless you're a MMO. If you're a MMO like World of Warcraft then properly implemented leveling systems are a great way to manipulate your player base.

Level scaling is often used as a bandaid to allow utilization of the leveling 'easy button' while not committing yourself to all the ways it inherently breaks the system. Pretty much any Legend of Zelda game is a great example of well done character advancement without leveling.

The Legend of Zelda has no leveling system so I am unsure why you included it in a discussion about level scaling.

 

[Proto Taco]

Because leveling, like life counts before it, is a poor excuse for game advancement and difficulty. There are better ways to define difficulty and character advancement, but leveling is the 'easy button.'

Unless you're a MMO. If you're a MMO like World of Warcraft then properly implemented leveling systems are a great way to manipulate your player base.

Level scaling is often used as a bandaid to allow utilization of the leveling 'easy button' while not committing yourself to all the ways it inherently breaks the system. Pretty much any Legend of Zelda game is a great example of well done character advancement without leveling.

The Legend of Zelda has no leveling system so I am unsure why you included it in a discussion about level scaling.

I'm confused why you skipped straight to the end and didn't read the whole post.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Because leveling, like life counts before it, is a poor excuse for game advancement and difficulty. There are better ways to define difficulty and character advancement, but leveling is the 'easy button.'

Unless you're a MMO. If you're a MMO like World of Warcraft then properly implemented leveling systems are a great way to manipulate your player base.

Level scaling is often used as a bandaid to allow utilization of the leveling 'easy button' while not committing yourself to all the ways it inherently breaks the system. Pretty much any Legend of Zelda game is a great example of well done character advancement without leveling.

The Legend of Zelda has no leveling system so I am unsure why you included it in a discussion about level scaling.

I'm confused why you skipped straight to the end and didn't read the whole post.

I didn't see the need to comment about how you dislike level systems in the first place. Turning every RPG into The Legend of Zelda sounds really boring.

 

[veloper]

You want the allure of exploration and progression in your game, without putting too much effort into designing appropriate challenges?
Do a level system + 1:1 level scaling.

You get much better results with a linear game and carefully tailored challenges that get progressively harder, but stat progression and free exploration are very popular features and scaling is the easy way to preserve some challenge.

That's why it's a thing.

 

[Drejer43]

Anyone remember the first Dead Island were when you got to the second area, and the smallest pack of zombies around got upped from 1-3 zombies to 4-5 (bearing in mind it was common when you engaged a pack to pull other zombies aswell). A group, that size wouldn't have been a problem before, but now because of scaling levels the zombies took way more hits and they only needed 4-5 hits to down you.
I ended up hating the game because of this and the shitty co-op leveling.

 

[Drejer43]

double post because of dumb guidelines messing it up

 

[Denamic]

Because you can get a sense of character progression while keeping a level of challenge to the game without forcing a linear area-based challenge progression. It doesn't work for all games, but others don't work without it. Like you don't want gibberlings that actually pose a threat at max level in Baldur's Gate, while all enemies scaling with you makes games like Borderlands and Diablo plain better.

 

[laggyteabag]

I actually quite like level scaling. One of the biggest problems that I have with games with leveling zones, is that I often find myself overleveled for the zone, before I finish its questline. This means that if I want to finish a zone's story, I need to essentially waste my time, as the experience, creatures, and rewards are sub par to what I could be getting if I moved on. I actually like the idea of being able to go wherever I want to, and not have to worry about if I am too high or too low of a level.

Nothing is more boring to me than effortlessly OSKing a load of supposedly "challenging" enemies, especially when they are the big boss from a long time ago. Ever gone to an old raid in WoW, when you are 20 or so levels above their intended level? Super boring.

This is Arthas, he is the Lord of the Scourge, the Jailor of the Damned, and the ruler of the frozen wastes of Northrend. He can control blood, frost, and unholy magic, as well as raise dead to fight in his scourge army. By his hand, he brought Azeroth to its knees, as he felled armies, conquered kingdoms and killed kings, but wait, gimmie 5 minutes, and I will just solo the guy, kill all of his generals and allies, and topple his empire without breaking a sweat. How immersion breaking is that?