LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[The Madman]

As much as I enjoyed Korra, the whole Korra and Asami thing really did feel pretty slapdash to me. It felt like the writers wanted to end the show on a romantic note like they have the previous Avatar series, but since they'd already burned bridges between Korra and her previous love interest they just went with what was popular online. Not exactly what I'd call the series greatest moment, but then lots of people seemed to love it so I guess that's what counts.

Never watched the other show but seeing that clip, it certainly looks more well thought out and presented than Korra's romance was. In my opinion of course.

 

[RaikuFA]

It seems to me people would rather blame Nickolodeon than accept that LOK had shit writing "Oh they couldn't do THAT, Nick would have detonated their exploding collars".

Eh, maybe. <.<

Nick wasn't exactly treating LOK very well long before they wanted to have Korra with Asami. Heck, they even got a surprise budget cut near the end of the last season. I doubt they would have been gun ho to let them actually go all into the relationship (ex: show them kiss, confess romantic love, ect)

That said, I'd say the idea is that fans do accept (or in some cases complain/argue) that the LOK writing was shit (in places), but do give credit to Nick for that happening.

OT: That all said, got to give it to Steven universe. Not only have they been more upfront with the LGBT relationships in the show, but they also got the representations of other "non-traditional" (Non-traditional as in not often shown on family cartoons) relationships.

Like Stevens dad and the Mayor being Single parents, Onion having a older half-brother (Sour Cream)https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/30/be/4430be892544708b700d4bb0f06e2a86.jpg
And as an other person had mentioned, there are the relationships that were romantic but ended/changed (Pearl and Rose, Amethyst and Greg).

All done pretty subtly too, without trying to avoid actually discussing it.

That said, the more the merrier.
For another good example, lets though in Jeff's Moms from Clarence.

On the subject of Clarence, there's a scene where two full grown men kiss. CN been really progressive lately.

 

[Fox12]

Well, I haven't seen either, but from an outsiders view I would say that the second one did it much better.

...

Until the singing started. Do they do that a lot in Steven Universe?

 

[Redryhno]

snip

He also implied how people should stop being closeted bigots and get with the program in that post as well if I remember right. As if people just don't like the pairing at all and don't think it fits. Opinion besides the creator's not allowed anymore?

There's two people in a relationship buddy, you've spent alot of time talking about only one of them. I mean, it's not like we've all known that one person who's confident in nearly everything except dating right? Or is that just another cliched teen thing that must be done away with?

And I'm not leaving out things because I want to make my point, I'm probably leaving them out because I don't remember every detail *GASP*. Quit assuming maliciousness and dishonesty on my part and maybe you can move past this complex where you automatically assume anyone that doesn't conform to your worldview is doing so out of spite or whatever the new hip word is that I always see you accusing everyone that disagrees with you of.

Also it's sorta funny you saying I won't talk about your points when you've cut out parts of every post you've responded to, dare I say you don't want to actually talk about anything and instead want to fight because someone might have a different opinion than yourself? I mean, I did ask that they could've put in a precedent beyond just the finale couple somewhere considering they paired pretty much every character up with someone else that you didn't address yourself...

Ok, now I'm out for good here. This isn't intended as a continuation really, think of it as more like a rhetorical series of paragraphs.

On the subject of Clarence, there's a scene where two full grown men kiss. CN been really progressive lately.

Eh, to be fair, they've always sorta been more risque and less afraid than most other animated channels, half of Cartoon Cartoons was pretty adult stuff intended for kids, after all.

 

[Redryhno]

It seems to me people would rather blame Nickolodeon than accept that LOK had shit writing "Oh they couldn't do THAT, Nick would have detonated their exploding collars".

Ooor people have entirely different tastes and standards to you in an incredibly subjective manner, and as such can find LOK to be either acceptable or amazing in it's writing and handling of topics such as this.

Plus, well, I dunno about you, but having someone hovering over everything I write who has a history of screwing me over and will veto the shit out of anything too risque usually isn't the most beneficial environment for my writing, especially when I want to do said risque things with my writing.

I agree that LoK is a very subjective thing, kinda wish people would accept that there's quite a few people that don't like how it ended without it being because they think gay people are nasty though.

But as I said in my first post in this thread, you either drop it(which I can fully understand NOT wanting to do if it's important enough to you) or you work on your subtlety to help draw parallels so you can keep writing inside the parameters set(which they tried to do, but mostly failed at as far as I'm concerned) for the audience. I mean, I would hope that they aren't the first gay couple in the universe, but that's what was shown. I mean, they did pair every character up with someone else, and they're the only non-straight relationship you ever see after all.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It seems to me people would rather blame Nickolodeon than accept that LOK had shit writing "Oh they couldn't do THAT, Nick would have detonated their exploding collars".

Eh, maybe. <.<

Nick wasn't exactly treating LOK very well long before they wanted to have Korra with Asami. Heck, they even got a surprise budget cut near the end of the last season. I doubt they would have been gun ho to let them actually go all into the relationship (ex: show them kiss, confess romantic love, ect)

That said, I'd say the idea is that fans do accept (or in some cases complain/argue) that the LOK writing was shit (in places), but do give credit to Nick for that happening.

OT: That all said, got to give it to Steven universe. Not only have they been more upfront with the LGBT relationships in the show, but they also got the representations of other "non-traditional" (Non-traditional as in not often shown on family cartoons) relationships.

Like Stevens dad and the Mayor being Single parents, Onion having a older half-brother (Sour Cream)https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/30/be/4430be892544708b700d4bb0f06e2a86.jpg
And as an other person had mentioned, there are the relationships that were romantic but ended/changed (Pearl and Rose, Amethyst and Greg).

All done pretty subtly too, without trying to avoid actually discussing it.

That said, the more the merrier.
For another good example, lets though in Jeff's Moms from Clarence.

Glad someone else mentioned Clarence. In addition to Jeff's moms, I believe there's a gay male couple that shows up as background characters in some episodes.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

No contest, Steven universe did it better than LoK because CN is actually letting them get away with how they're doing it... for now. It helps that Steven universe manages to hit all the sweet spots showing girl on girl love without it being done in an adult manner, rather a neutral sort of way, and can get away with it coz most are aliens.
they have mature subject matter but stay kid friendly because it's basically being taught to a kid in the show. They basically have mastered the middle road to the point they have mass appeal without going too far to one demographic as to alienate people too much.
Kinda wonder when they'll make Steven Universe toys though.

 

[Story]

I mean can it really be up for debate? Avatar kinda danced around the issue and the only reason we know it is because the writer flat out told us after the show was done. Steven Universe, everything is right in the show itself and it's blatant.

Wow first comment nailed it. Kudos.
Honestly, having just finished Korra, I wouldn't even know or even guessed because nothing really was leading up to them being in a relationship. Steven Universe, covering up that technically the Gems are genderless aliens none-the less are a lot more blatant about it.

 

[Saetha]

Well, I haven't seen either, but from an outsiders view I would say that the second one did it much better.

...

Until the singing started. Do they do that a lot in Steven Universe?

Not into the singing? I guess it's not for everyone. And yeah, it happens fairly commonly in SU. Not every episode, but often enough that it'd qualify as a feature of the show.

Although, damn, some of the songs are really catchy.

Granted if I have to picked one then I am leading toward Steven Universe eventhought you don't much interation with Ruby and Sapphire that much (so I just see it as ultimate love). I mean Garnet is a union of eternal love and Ruby and Sapphire loved for each other is so strong, they can pretty much keep an pernament hold as Garnet. Also I think for a fusion, Ganert is also a close perfect fusion since it seen temporary fusion have extra limb or eyes (well ok Garnet as three eyes but everyone else are usually four).

Yeah, I agree with the "Perfect fusions are the most normal looking" theory. The most monstrous fusions we've seen were Malachite and Alexandrite, and both of them feel apart in moments. Sugulite went crazy, Opal splits apart outside of battle, and Rainbow Quartz is the only other one that seems stable (And it also happens to be between two lovers/almost lovers) But I'm pretty sure Garnet really is a perfect fusion, and her third eye is an inherited trait rather than an imperfect one. Notice how when we see Ruby, she's wearing a headband where Garnet's third eye would be, and when starting her search for Sapphire, she clutches her head and says she can't see, even though she obviously isn't blind. Methinks Garnet's got the normal amount of eyes, plus one more because Ruby has one more.

 

[joshuaayt]

Steven Universe, easy.

LoK was a big deal when it happened, because hey, confirmed canon lesbians in a cartoon! Neat!

But Steven Universe has gone so far beyond what LoK accomplished. I assume they have a tonne of leeway because the Gems are considered genderless? That's a fantastic loophole, because kids don't know or care about this, they just see the pretty ladies in an obvious relationship.
It was even explicitly stated that two of them were in a relationship- no dancing around it or pushing boundaries just far enough, they flatly said it, and had an episode devoted to this.

I don't know how Nick is compared to CN when it comes to LGBT representation, so I can't really be too critical. Still, there's no argument; taken on their own merits, SU is on top.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Well, I'm a fan of Korra, and the KorrAsami pairing but I'm happy to concede that the writing in the show's later seasons wasn't as tight as it could have been and the subtle approach they went for did (in retrospect) meander into ambiguity. Whether this is as a result of Mike and Bryan not having the same mojo for Korra as the did TLA, or because Nick were hanging a sword of Damocles above them marked "Cancelled" that would fall at the slightest hint of funny business will remain a point of debate.

That said, based on what the OP supplied, I'm inclined to say that Steven Universe did it better. That said, maybe in two or five years time, DC will commission a Batwoman animated series with Renee Montoya that get to be together.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

And seriously, Nickelodeon is not kind to LGBT representation. I know it's fun to imagine these brilliant, daring writers skirting the boundaries of censorship to show their message despite the 'Rules', but the reality is more 'Nickelodeon has this shit on lock-down so anything that you want to do that goes outside their boundaries needs to be negotiated carefully so everyone can keep paying their bills'. Like, you could be the greatest writer in the world and that shit is still going to have a negative impact on your material.

From what I heard Nickelodeon was perfectly fine with the pairing. They said "do everything but actually have them kiss", and the only reason they denied the kiss is they thought dealing with a certain group that would complain very loudly about it wasn't worth the trouble.

OT: Gonna have to go with Steven Universe here. I like Korrrasami, but it was pretty downplayed. Steven is a lot more open about it and has more complexity.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

And seriously, Nickelodeon is not kind to LGBT representation. I know it's fun to imagine these brilliant, daring writers skirting the boundaries of censorship to show their message despite the 'Rules', but the reality is more 'Nickelodeon has this shit on lock-down so anything that you want to do that goes outside their boundaries needs to be negotiated carefully so everyone can keep paying their bills'. Like, you could be the greatest writer in the world and that shit is still going to have a negative impact on your material.

Bryke said himself, Nickelodeon never bluntly told him they couldn't do it, they all just assumed they wouldn't be allowed because of an "unwritten rule" of how these companies typically react. When that revelation did occur to him and he actually asked Nick, they were supportive with 'some' regulation.

The more Korra and Asami?s relationship progressed, the more the idea of a romance between them organically blossomed for us. However, we still operated under this notion, another ?unwritten rule,? that we would not be allowed to depict that in our show. So we alluded to it throughout the second half of the series, working in the idea that their trajectory could be heading towards a romance.

But as we got close to finishing the finale, the thought struck me: How do I know we can?t openly depict that? No one ever explicitly said so. It was just another assumption based on a paradigm that marginalizes non-heterosexual people. If we want to see that paradigm evolve, we need to take a stand against it. And I didn?t want to look back in 20 years and think, ?Man, we could have fought harder for that.? Mike and I talked it over and decided it was important to be unambiguous about the intended relationship.

We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced. It was originally written in the script over a year ago that Korra and Asami held hands as they walked into the spirit portal. We went back and forth on it in the storyboards, but later in the retake process I staged a revision where they turned towards each other, clasping both hands in a reverential manner, in a direct reference to Varrick and Zhu Li?s nuptial pose from a few minutes prior. We asked Jeremy Zuckerman to make the music tender and romantic, and he fulfilled the assignment with a sublime score. I think the entire last two-minute sequence with Korra and Asami turned out beautiful, and again, it is a resolution of which I am very proud. I love how their relationship arc took its time, through kindness and caring. If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.

If Bryke had asked sooner, maybe he could have avoided some of the criticism that the relationship isn't written well, rather than trying to dodge censors that weren't actually there.