Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Phoenixmgs

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Lmao. Kids theoretically lose a month and a half of their life expectancy due to school closures and it's a Holocaust, hilarious. Ever wonder why European school closures didn't have the same effect? Any chance you might realize that we could be mitigating this right now but nobody gives a shit?
Mask, vax, avoid crowds. It's actually pretty simple. Love the idea that just because I'm probably gonna die in a traffic accident means I don't need to watch my weight though. Clown logic.
Where's the equivalent European study that says no effect?

Those don't stop you from getting covid, if they did, we'd be at 0 covid easy. Diet is the leading cause of death, why would your chances of death from traffic accident be greater than diet?

My eyebrow was raised immediately by the writers making up-front value judgements and policy 'suggestions', even in the introductory section.

...and the very first response involves a researcher pointing out several analytical errors, which dramatically affect the results.

But most of all: this entire study is based on the correlation of lower educational attainment and lower life expectancy. It then assumes that lost years of education due to school closures will have the same impact. Do you see the problem here...? Correlation is not causation! Lower life expectancy and lower educational attainment are primarily correlated due to economic factors-- poverty, deprivation, etc.
I'm not saying it's the best study or anything. To think having kids out of school isn't having some major negative effects is pure naivety. Lots of kids never came back to school, we lost thousands and thousands of kids. I don't think you need an official study to tell you those kids life expectancy greatly dropped. And for what, covid is less deadly than the flu for them.

Fuck's sake.

1) This assumption only works if the loss of education is permanent. The reality is that a lot of any deficit will be caught up.

2) Education correlates with all sorts of factors - socioeconomic status, wealth, etc. Someone with a worse education tends to get a worse job: but it's the bad job that docks life years more than it is the education (e.g. problems affording healthcare). But there is no clear evidence that a nationwide disruption of education actually causes people to get worse jobs. People are still getting into college or university at about the same rates. The same jobs will be available to them as adults. And so on. This is what Silvanus is getting at with correlation and causation.

What this means is that there is a huge problem with this sort of speculative paper, because they have extremely problematic assumptions built in that render them extraordinarily unsafe.
We lost thousands and thousands of kids that never returned to school. Also, the school closures very disproportionately effected minority kids. The ones that needed school the most were not allowed in school.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I literally made the argument about anything that expels droplets from your respiratory system: coughing, talking, breathing, etc.



The evidence is already out there and posted, mate. There's more published since then, too, it just doesn't get the same press because the matter is pretty much beyond dispute at this stage for anyone rational.



Your argument is not a useful representation of real-life, because risk does not exist outside of other factors. Driving might be more dangerous to me than covid, but then I also need to travel to places, like to get to work. For the life of me, I cannot see what significant burden there is wearing a mask. So the argument "Why wear a mask if you drive a car?" is rendered a nonsense.



I'm not "fearful". I'm responsible: like adults and good citizens should be.
No, you literally said something about people handling stuff that's commonly coughed should use sanitizer or wear gloves (something like that) when that doesn't help against covid nor is anyone's job handling stuff that is commonly infected with covid anyway.

There's literally no evidence of masks working in the real world in RCTs. Post them if you have them but you don't. There was no evidence that masks worked before covid and there isn't now. You just like to believe the things you believe in are true vs posting actual data proving that they are true.

Guess where you can get covid?!?!?! At work that you drive to everyday. Guess where you can get covid?!?!?!?! Socializing with people that humans need to do for mental health purposes. There's no avoiding covid, like there's no avoiding driving (for the most part). Prove to me with RCTs that masks do anything, which you can't. Also, seeing people's faces is kinda important for social interactions, which is required for mental health. If you can even prove to me masks work, which you can't, you'd then have to prove to me mask benefits are greater than their costs. Acting like there's no costs to masks is asinine.

Forcing people into poorer health states is "responsible"?
 

Silvanus

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I'm not saying it's the best study or anything. To think having kids out of school isn't having some major negative effects is pure naivety. Lots of kids never came back to school, we lost thousands and thousands of kids. I don't think you need an official study to tell you those kids life expectancy greatly dropped. And for what, covid is less deadly than the flu for them.
Actually, yes, I'm gonna need a source for the idea that their life expectancy "greatly dropped" from losing in-person learning for a couple of years, which can readily be caught up. That's a gigantic leap, and it's not supported one little bit by that study pointing to a correlation between endemic, long term educational issues and lower life expectancy.

But this is besides the point. You're shifting the goalposts, onto merely talking about "major negative effects". Your original contention was that restrictions are more dangerous than Covid. Which would require a death toll in the millions directly attributable to lockdowns.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Actually, yes, I'm gonna need a source for the idea that their life expectancy "greatly dropped" from losing in-person learning for a couple of years, which can readily be caught up. That's a gigantic leap, and it's not supported one little bit by that study pointing to a correlation between endemic, long term educational issues and lower life expectancy.

But this is besides the point. You're shifting the goalposts, onto merely talking about "major negative effects". Your original contention was that restrictions are more dangerous than Covid. Which would require a death toll in the millions directly attributable to lockdowns.
I said the kids that we lost that didn't return to school life expectancy greatly dropped. You need a study for that? Do you also need a study that says parachutes work to use a parachute?

AGAIN FOR LIKE THE MILLIONTH TIME PLEASE PROVIDE A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS THAT LOCKDOWNS SAVED LIFE. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM SAYS IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO LOCKDOWNS BEING GOOD.

The study you posted at least twice now
Huh?

"Summed across the population, based on the RR from the European studies, an estimated 0.8 million (95% CI, 0.1 -2.4) YLL may be associated with school closures."
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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"Summed across the population, based on the RR from the European studies, an estimated 0.8 million (95% CI, 0.1 -2.4) YLL may be associated with school closures."
Which is dramatically lower than the US one, and also you're comparing a purely hypothetical loss of a few weeks of life in a way that *cannot* be proven given the data set at the end of a life to literally millions of actually dead people.
 

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Which is dramatically lower than the US one, and also you're comparing a purely hypothetical loss of a few weeks of life in a way that *cannot* be proven given the data set at the end of a life to literally millions of actually dead people.
Tons of things are quite worse that will lead to shorter lives like diets and mental health. Diet is already the reason many died from covid and people's diets only got worse due to covid restrictions.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Tons of things are quite worse that will lead to shorter lives like diets and mental health. Diet is already the reason many died from covid and people's diets only got worse due to covid restrictions.
So you honestly believe, with your whole heart, that free movement with a deadly viral plague running rampant would've had fewer people dieing than eating an extra serving of pizza a week? And you are willing to pretend there's evidence proving that?
 
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Silvanus

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I said the kids that we lost that didn't return to school life expectancy greatly dropped. You need a study for that? Do you also need a study that says parachutes work to use a parachute?
So you're just going to act as if it's self-evident? It's fucking not. Life expectancy doesn't greatly decrease if you lose a short period of in-person education and then have the opportunity to make it back.

AGAIN FOR LIKE THE MILLIONTH TIME PLEASE PROVIDE A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS THAT LOCKDOWNS SAVED LIFE. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM SAYS IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO LOCKDOWNS BEING GOOD.
This is an outright lie. We have a death toll in millions for covid. Absolutely no estimate would put the death toll from restrictions and lockdowns anywhere even close to a fraction of that.
 

Phoenixmgs

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So you honestly believe, with your whole heart, that free movement with a deadly viral plague running rampant would've had fewer people dieing than eating an extra serving of pizza a week? And you are willing to pretend there's evidence proving that?
Diet is the cause of most health problems already. In the long run, you will lose more life than from covid. I've asked for a single cost-benefit analysis showing lockdowns saved years of life, yet not a single one has yet to be posted. Whereas every single one of them says lockdowns have not saved any life in the long run.

So you're just going to act as if it's self-evident? It's fucking not. Life expectancy doesn't greatly decrease if you lose a short period of in-person education and then have the opportunity to make it back.



This is an outright lie. We have a death toll in millions for covid. Absolutely no estimate would put the death toll from restrictions and lockdowns anywhere even close to a fraction of that.
OMFG, THE KIDS THAT WE LOST THAT DIDN'T COME BACK TO SCHOOL HAVE HAD A MASSIVE DROP IN LIFE EXPECTANCY. I don't understand why I have to repeat things so many fucking times.

If it's a lie, provide a single cost-benefit analysis that says covid restrictions have saved more life. Literally every single one says covid restrictions cost more total life and it's not even fucking close either.
 

Dalisclock

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So you honestly believe, with your whole heart, that free movement with a deadly viral plague running rampant would've had fewer people dieing than eating an extra serving of pizza a week? And you are willing to pretend there's evidence proving that?
Not to mention fewer people working because more people are sick, hospitalized or dead with no safety measures in place. Even with safety measures in place we're down 1 million Americans, people who aren't working or spending. That's not even going into many, many people who went to the hospital for COVID and have notable medical related debt for treatment thet cannot spend on other things now
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Diet is the cause of most health problems already. In the long run, you will lose more life than from covid. I've asked for a single cost-benefit analysis showing lockdowns saved years of life, yet not a single one has yet to be posted. Whereas every single one of them says lockdowns have not saved any life in the long run.
I don't fucking *care* about losing a month around the backend of my life, I care about my dad dying right fucking now. I care about my roommate being in the hospital for a week for god knows why and now his organs are shot to hell for the foreseeable future. I care that fucking Line Cook and Nurse were the two most dangerous jobs to have during the last couple years with regard to this virus. I care about the motherfucking ghoulishness required to whine about lockdowns, have a *bunch* or restaurant workers die, and then whining about how people don't want to work those shit jobs that bunches of people died at any more

I *don't* care that I could've lived to 86 and 10 months instead of 86 and 8 months
 

Silvanus

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OMFG, THE KIDS THAT WE LOST THAT DIDN'T COME BACK TO SCHOOL HAVE HAD A MASSIVE DROP IN LIFE EXPECTANCY. I don't understand why I have to repeat things so many fucking times.
No, they haven't.

Just endlessly repeating something doesn't make it any more compelling. You said that before, yes; and it was absurd, and you didn't provide any good evidence. The links you provided were laughably shit, and didn't support your conclusion, so nobody believed it. And... just repeating the claim doesn't magically give any more reason to believe its true.

If it's a lie, provide a single cost-benefit analysis that says covid restrictions have saved more life. Literally every single one says covid restrictions cost more total life and it's not even fucking close either.
This is a lie.

You have been provided evidence already. Over and over again. You've dismissed them based on shoddy understanding of science, or refused to engage, then just gone back to insisting nobody has provided anything.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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You have been provided evidence already. Over and over again. You've dismissed them based on shoddy understanding of science, or refused to engage, then just gone back to insisting nobody has provided anything.
The problem is that you've all been providing things like evidence and rational arguments, when what Phoenixmgs wants is validation of his selfishness- he wants us all to apologize for caring more about our lives than his convenience. After all, we're not him, so how dare we think that we matter?
 

Phoenixmgs

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I don't fucking *care* about losing a month around the backend of my life, I care about my dad dying right fucking now. I care about my roommate being in the hospital for a week for god knows why and now his organs are shot to hell for the foreseeable future. I care that fucking Line Cook and Nurse were the two most dangerous jobs to have during the last couple years with regard to this virus. I care about the motherfucking ghoulishness required to whine about lockdowns, have a *bunch* or restaurant workers die, and then whining about how people don't want to work those shit jobs that bunches of people died at any more

I *don't* care that I could've lived to 86 and 10 months instead of 86 and 8 months
It's more than just 2 months. Every analysis that has been done has shown far far far far more life is lost from covid restrictions than was saved. And what about your dad or someone else's dad only having say 2 good years left and wanting to live life during that time? Do they not have a say for how they want to live their life? I have a friend that's a retired cop and he had that attitude where he's early 70s and he knows that cops' average life expectancy is like 78 and he didn't want to not live his life during covid because it could be his last few good years.

No, they haven't.

Just endlessly repeating something doesn't make it any more compelling. You said that before, yes; and it was absurd, and you didn't provide any good evidence. The links you provided were laughably shit, and didn't support your conclusion, so nobody believed it. And... just repeating the claim doesn't magically give any more reason to believe its true.



This is a lie.

You have been provided evidence already. Over and over again. You've dismissed them based on shoddy understanding of science, or refused to engage, then just gone back to insisting nobody has provided anything.
High school dropouts have a life expectancy that's nine years shorter than high school graduates

Seriously, shut the fuck up about evidence being provided, it fucking wasn't. And if it was provided, then provide the fucking evidence already. IT FUCKING DOESN'T EXIST AND YOU'RE THE ONE LYING.

The problem is that you've all been providing things like evidence and rational arguments, when what Phoenixmgs wants is validation of his selfishness- he wants us all to apologize for caring more about our lives than his convenience. After all, we're not him, so how dare we think that we matter?
Nope, no one provided any evidence that covid lockdowns saved more life. No one provided an RCT saying masks work pre-covid or post-covid. None of this evidence was ever provided because it doesn't exist.
 

Silvanus

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High school dropouts have a life expectancy that's nine years shorter than high school graduates
And it's already been explained in detail why this correlation is not evidence for what you think it is.

Seriously, shut the fuck up about evidence being provided, it fucking wasn't. And if it was provided, then provide the fucking evidence already. IT FUCKING DOESN'T EXIST AND YOU'RE THE ONE LYING.
"if it was provided, then provide it"?

Are you hearing yourself?

If you stop pretending that evidence hasn't already been provided, then I'll stop reminding you that it has. Deal? Deal.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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It's more than just 2 months. Every analysis that has been done has shown far far far far more life is lost from covid restrictions than was saved. And what about your dad or someone else's dad only having say 2 good years left and wanting to live life during that time? Do they not have a say for how they want to live their life? I have a friend that's a retired cop and he had that attitude where he's early 70s and he knows that cops' average life expectancy is like 78 and he didn't want to not live his life during covid because it could be his last few good years.
I lost both of my grandfathers and an uncle in 2020. Parkinson's, heart virus, and complications after routine surgery.

Your cop friend is just as stupid as the rest of the cops who didn't want to mask up and take precautions and that's why covid was the number 1 cop killer two years running.

Your research has not shown that lockdowns killed 6.3 million people and you need to shut the hell up with that dumbass example. It's bogus guessing at ultimate life expectancy and conflating *maybe* losing some time at the end of your life with millions of real, actual fucking deaths
 

Kwak

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Every analysis that has been done has shown far far far far more life is lost from covid restrictions than was saved.
Understanding the mortality impact of COVID-19 requires not only counting the dead, but analyzing how premature the deaths are. We calculate years of life lost (YLL) across 81 countries due to COVID-19 attributable deaths, and also conduct an analysis based on estimated excess deaths.

We find that over 20.5 million years of life have been lost to COVID-19 globally.

As of January 6, 2021, YLL in heavily affected countries are 2–9 times the average seasonal influenza; three quarters of the YLL result from deaths in ages below 75 and almost a third from deaths below 55; and men have lost 45% more life years than women. The results confirm the large mortality impact of COVID-19 among the elderly. They also call for heightened awareness in devising policies that protect vulnerable demographics losing the largest number of life-years.