Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Phoenixmgs

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I call immediate bullshit on the idea that lockdowns caused more than 6.3 million deaths
It's just not deaths TODAY. Covid restrictions caused more mental health illness, caused worse diets, caused people more financially worse off (disproportionately the ones already not well off). Income is directly associated with people's health. But tanking the economy to save people from covid is like only good with no bad effects? And saying those that bring up the economy as heartless goons that just want more money is one of the dumbest arguments ever as money is directly tied to health.

Have you ever looked at a computer screen and seen lots of small spots on it? Do you know what those spots are? They're mostly dried blobs of saliva, mucus and the like from people sitting in front of the screen, breathing, talking, coughing or eating. Now imagine their keyboard and mouse, right under their mouth, and how much that's got on it. So for instance the IT guy who comes in sorts out people's computers, replaces their peripherals and so on is likely to spend plenty of time putting their hands over stuff covered in dried droplets from people's respiratory system. Lovely.
Yeah, and the vast majority people sit at one computer station, even nurses use "their" computer even though any of them can use any computer on the floor as they don't even technically log into them as they all have generic accounts signed in. I'm in fact handling way more "coughed on" stuff than a nurse is and I just wash my hands before lunch unless they get legit dirty or there was something sticky or something out of the norm. What job actually entails touching things that are constantly coughed on? I don't even think an Amazon warehouse worker is touching many things in a day that were coughed on.

It's not so much the coughing, it's the basic breathing and talking. Most of this is a fine mist we don't usually notice - although breathe over a pane of glass: notice the condensation on it? Talk to someone not that far away, and you can definitely sometimes notice little flecks of fluid flying out, and we've surely all felt spatter in the face from someone speaking close enough.
That's been my point the ENTIRE TIME. Everyone posts these dummy videos of coughs and sneezes with masks on but that was never a threat to begin with. Show me how a mask is gonna lower than concentration of covid actually floating around in the air from someone that is infectious. You get covid or the flu or a head cold from being with family/friend/co-worker for decently long periods of time in the same room just breathing shared air, and the cold builds up in the room over time. You ain't getting covid from someone asking you where the batteries are at Walmart.


Oh god, can you please hold an idea in your head for more than three days so that we don't have to constantly repeat stuff.
Please tell me why I or anyone should be fearful of something that is less dangerous than something I already do all the time and don't find the risks high enough?


...and you've absolutely no idea how you got them. For all you know, they may have been from fomites.
Yeah I do. The group I was with for a prolonged period had person(s) that were sick. My first cold last cold season was from friends and the 2nd cold I got was from co-workers. Unless you're gonna say that at the exact same time that my group of people I'm with had colds that I instead randomly got sick from picking something up at the grocery store that someone sneezed on... And that throughout my life what has always happened (getting sick when others around me are sick) is just some almost mathematically improbable coincidence that I'm in fact getting sick from touching door knobs (or whatever) at that exact time my friends are sick over and over and over again...


This is so utterly, completely, obviously untrue, so much so it's genuinely ludicrous that anybody would believe it, even for a second.



As I have to keep reminding you: you have already been provided with this evidence numerous times. You've either ignored it or dismissed it based on exceptionally poor understanding of data/research.
Post a SINGLE cost-benefit analysis that proves otherwise...

NO I FUCKING HAVEN'T, POST THE FUCKING COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS OR SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It's just not deaths TODAY. Covid restrictions caused more mental health illness, caused worse diets, caused people more financially worse off (disproportionately the ones already not well off). Income is directly associated with people's health. But tanking the economy to save people from covid is like only good with no bad effects? And saying those that bring up the economy as heartless goons that just want more money is one of the dumbest arguments ever as money is directly tied to health.
And we're back to arguing for hypothetical bullshit influenced by thousands of factors with zero ability to quantify to justify zero restrictions during a global pandemic that's killed over 6 million people
 

Kwak

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Show me how a mask is gonna lower than concentration of covid actually floating around in the air from someone that is infectious.

Figure 14 shows the contours of inhaled particles for the cases of no mask (top), everyone with a surgical mask (middle), and everyone with a handmade mask (bottom). It is impressive to see how the surgical mask significantly reduces the number of inhaled particles. In the top figure with no mask, nearly all passengers to the rear of the infected passenger inhale more than 50. On the other hand, when everyone wears a surgical mask, during the 15 min ride, not a single passenger inhales anywhere near 50 particles, and unless the susceptible person is standing face-to-face with the infected person, the number of inhaled particles is less than 2.


 
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Silvanus

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Post a SINGLE cost-benefit analysis that proves otherwise...
We don't need a "cost-benefit analysis" when we're looking specifically at life lost, do we?

We have the stats for life lost due to covid. ~6 million worldwide, ~1 million in the US.

If you believe more have died from... the restrictions? Yeah, its incumbent on you to provide stats for such an utterly ludicrous claim, not me.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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And we're back to arguing for hypothetical bullshit influenced by thousands of factors with zero ability to quantify to justify zero restrictions during a global pandemic that's killed over 6 million people
So we should only make policy based on the short-term, that sounds like a wonderful plan...



Figure 14 shows the contours of inhaled particles for the cases of no mask (top), everyone with a surgical mask (middle), and everyone with a handmade mask (bottom). It is impressive to see how the surgical mask significantly reduces the number of inhaled particles. In the top figure with no mask, nearly all passengers to the rear of the infected passenger inhale more than 50. On the other hand, when everyone wears a surgical mask, during the 15 min ride, not a single passenger inhales anywhere near 50 particles, and unless the susceptible person is standing face-to-face with the infected person, the number of inhaled particles is less than 2.


The 1st study that says masks will basically eliminate transmission got their model for that from here, which is not a study showing what masks do with airborne transmission but with droplet transmission. What's the point of the Chinese study, it just says the virus is most likely airborne.

We don't need a "cost-benefit analysis" when we're looking specifically at life lost, do we?

We have the stats for life lost due to covid. ~6 million worldwide, ~1 million in the US.

If you believe more have died from... the restrictions? Yeah, its incumbent on you to provide stats for such an utterly ludicrous claim, not me.
Post a life-lost analysis (which is literally the same thing as a cost-benefit analysis but you don't like the word "cost" I guess) saying covid restrictions saved more total life. I did provide several cost-benefit analysis comparing years of life lost from restrictions, JAMA posted one just on the impact to kids from schools closed for 3 months. It's not just short-term life lost, it's life lost now and in the future.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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So we should only make policy based on the short-term, that sounds like a wonderful plan...
It's a *disaster* plan, genius. It only lasts as long as the disaster. And if we gave a shit, we *could* be mitigating it's effects right now. And considering you're basing this argument on *the economy* like this year+ of school is gonna have any greater effect than the crash that's gonna happen because capitalism is currently making sausage out of its own intestines is hilarious

Good Christ, you're arguing to let a town burn down because the state is in a drought
 

Silvanus

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Post a life-lost analysis (which is literally the same thing as a cost-benefit analysis but you don't like the word "cost" I guess) saying covid restrictions saved more total life. I did provide several cost-benefit analysis comparing years of life lost from restrictions, JAMA posted one just on the impact to kids from schools closed for 3 months. It's not just short-term life lost, it's life lost now and in the future.
"The impact to kids from schools closed"-- that's not them losing their lives, is it? Are we back to you equating working/learning from home with death?
 
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Avnger

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"The impact to kids from schools closed"-- that's not them losing their lives, is it? Are we back to you equating working/learning from home with death?
If 25 million children fall 1 year behind in schooling, that's the equivalent of losing 1 year from their lives, which is the equivalent of 25 million years lost to humanity, which is the equivalent of 320,512 average US lifespans lost, so, clearly, Obama Biden did the exact equivalent of rounding up 320.5 thousand newborns and personally putting a bullet into their heads. It's just maths. 🤷‍♀️
 
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Agema

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"The impact to kids from schools closed"-- that's not them losing their lives, is it? Are we back to you equating working/learning from home with death?
Undoubtedly so, in ways with more holes than a Swiss cheese.
 
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Agema

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Yeah, and the vast majority people sit at one computer station, even nurses use "their" computer even though any of them can use any computer on the floor as they don't even technically log into them as they all have generic accounts signed in. I'm in fact handling way more "coughed on" stuff than a nurse is and I just wash my hands before lunch unless they get legit dirty or there was something sticky or something out of the norm. What job actually entails touching things that are constantly coughed on? I don't even think an Amazon warehouse worker is touching many things in a day that were coughed on.
It's not just coughing, though, is it? Follow the thread, and read the science - by which I mean all of it, not just the little snippets that say only what you want.

That's been my point the ENTIRE TIME. Everyone posts these dummy videos of coughs and sneezes with masks on but that was never a threat to begin with. Show me how a mask is gonna lower than concentration of covid actually floating around in the air from someone that is infectious. You get covid or the flu or a head cold from being with family/friend/co-worker for decently long periods of time in the same room just breathing shared air, and the cold builds up in the room over time. You ain't getting covid from someone asking you where the batteries are at Walmart.
Oh. My. God.

Firstly, simply breathing pumps potentially infectious material into the air. Secondly, having a piece of fabric in front of your face catches at least some of the inhaled and exhaled particles in the air as the air passes. Some will bypass any mask that is not airtight, but interdicting some is better than none.

All this information has been around for years. We've pointed you towards it dozens of times. Your "point the ENTIRE TIME" is just willful ignorance the ENTIRE TIME.

Please tell me why I or anyone should be fearful of something that is less dangerous than something I already do all the time and don't find the risks high enough?
I could not give a shit about your "fears". I think the fact you are afraid of appearing "fearful" says a lot more about you than anyone else.

Yeah I do.
So, you can't even remember your own argument? This is how hopeless it is arguing anything with you, because you can't even keep track of your own opinions, never mind science or anything else. Let me remind you:

"I've never gotten sick or infection from touching things"

You have literally no idea whether that is true, and reducing the issue to covid does not explain this, because it's excluding about 99% of infections you will have had.
 

Phoenixmgs

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It's a *disaster* plan, genius. It only lasts as long as the disaster. And if we gave a shit, we *could* be mitigating it's effects right now. And considering you're basing this argument on *the economy* like this year+ of school is gonna have any greater effect than the crash that's gonna happen because capitalism is currently making sausage out of its own intestines is hilarious

Good Christ, you're arguing to let a town burn down because the state is in a drought
Where is your proof that the covid restrictions have saved more life?

"The impact to kids from schools closed"-- that's not them losing their lives, is it? Are we back to you equating working/learning from home with death?
Yes, it causes kids to have shorter lives.

It's not just coughing, though, is it? Follow the thread, and read the science - by which I mean all of it, not just the little snippets that say only what you want.



Oh. My. God.

Firstly, simply breathing pumps potentially infectious material into the air. Secondly, having a piece of fabric in front of your face catches at least some of the inhaled and exhaled particles in the air as the air passes. Some will bypass any mask that is not airtight, but interdicting some is better than none.

All this information has been around for years. We've pointed you towards it dozens of times. Your "point the ENTIRE TIME" is just willful ignorance the ENTIRE TIME.



I could not give a shit about your "fears". I think the fact you are afraid of appearing "fearful" says a lot more about you than anyone else.



So, you can't even remember your own argument? This is how hopeless it is arguing anything with you, because you can't even keep track of your own opinions, never mind science or anything else. Let me remind you:

"I've never gotten sick or infection from touching things"

You have literally no idea whether that is true, and reducing the issue to covid does not explain this, because it's excluding about 99% of infections you will have had.
You literally made the argument of people handling stuff that's been coughed on, not me.

Your actual proof in the real world that the mask will lower infections? There was no science before covid saying masks worked nor is there any science now saying masks work.

Why can't you answer a simple fucking question? If you do X everyday and Y comes around that is less dangerous than X, would be concerned about Y? Sure if Y was more dangerous that would be a different story but it's not.

There's no evidence that anyone should be fearful of touching things with regards to covid, that is literally the science. Sure, there's a super tiny risk with touching things but if you live your life being worried about such minute risks, you wouldn't be living life.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Why can't you answer a simple fucking question? If you do X everyday and Y comes around that is less dangerous than X, would be concerned about Y?
Yes? If I do something that's 2% dangerous, that doesn't mean I'm going to completely ignore the danger of something that's 1% dangerous. You'd be stupid to.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Complete bollocks.

Yes? If I do something that's 2% dangerous, that doesn't mean I'm going to completely ignore the danger of something that's 1% dangerous. You'd be stupid to.
If you have to do it daily, then why would you be worried. Sure, if you could just do some simple thing to avoid it, then that makes sense but you can't with covid.

Think of all the school shootings that didn't happen during the lockdown.
Think of all the shootings the pandemic contributed to. The restrictions greatly increased mental health issues.

---

Funny how if I told you all doing something kept 1 out of 3 white kids in school while only keeping 1 out of 20 black kids in school, you'd all say that was horrible. But since it's covid, you're all for disproportionately hurting minorities.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Lmao. Kids theoretically lose a month and a half of their life expectancy due to school closures and it's a Holocaust, hilarious. Ever wonder why European school closures didn't have the same effect? Any chance you might realize that we could be mitigating this right now but nobody gives a shit?
If you have to do it daily, then why would you be worried. Sure, if you could just do some simple thing to avoid it, then that makes sense but you can't with covid.
Mask, vax, avoid crowds. It's actually pretty simple. Love the idea that just because I'm probably gonna die in a traffic accident means I don't need to watch my weight though. Clown logic.
 
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Silvanus

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My eyebrow was raised immediately by the writers making up-front value judgements and policy 'suggestions', even in the introductory section.

...and the very first response involves a researcher pointing out several analytical errors, which dramatically affect the results.

But most of all: this entire study is based on the correlation of lower educational attainment and lower life expectancy. It then assumes that lost years of education due to school closures will have the same impact. Do you see the problem here...? Correlation is not causation! Lower life expectancy and lower educational attainment are primarily correlated due to economic factors-- poverty, deprivation, etc.
 

Eacaraxe

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It then assumes that lost years of education due to school closures will have the same impact...Lower life expectancy and lower educational attainment are primarily correlated due to economic factors-- poverty, deprivation, etc.
Now, to be fair we are talking about contemporary American public education.
 

Agema

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Fuck's sake.

1) This assumption only works if the loss of education is permanent. The reality is that a lot of any deficit will be caught up.

2) Education correlates with all sorts of factors - socioeconomic status, wealth, etc. Someone with a worse education tends to get a worse job: but it's the bad job that docks life years more than it is the education (e.g. problems affording healthcare). But there is no clear evidence that a nationwide disruption of education actually causes people to get worse jobs. People are still getting into college or university at about the same rates. The same jobs will be available to them as adults. And so on. This is what Silvanus is getting at with correlation and causation.

What this means is that there is a huge problem with this sort of speculative paper, because they have extremely problematic assumptions built in that render them extraordinarily unsafe.
 

Agema

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You literally made the argument of people handling stuff that's been coughed on, not me.
I literally made the argument about anything that expels droplets from your respiratory system: coughing, talking, breathing, etc.

Your actual proof in the real world that the mask will lower infections? There was no science before covid saying masks worked nor is there any science now saying masks work.
The evidence is already out there and posted, mate. There's more published since then, too, it just doesn't get the same press because the matter is pretty much beyond dispute at this stage for anyone rational.

Why can't you answer a simple fucking question? If you do X everyday and Y comes around that is less dangerous than X, would be concerned about Y? Sure if Y was more dangerous that would be a different story but it's not.
Your argument is not a useful representation of real-life, because risk does not exist outside of other factors. Driving might be more dangerous to me than covid, but then I also need to travel to places, like to get to work. For the life of me, I cannot see what significant burden there is wearing a mask. So the argument "Why wear a mask if you drive a car?" is rendered a nonsense.

There's no evidence that anyone should be fearful
I'm not "fearful". I'm responsible: like adults and good citizens should be.