Lightning Returns Blends Final Fantasy With Dark Souls

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Ya know, I'm totally okay with them doing that.

With a franchise that's been going on for this long I would think they would want to do new things with it so it's not too boring or easy. I have no idea how this is all gonna work, but I'm hoping the end results are awesome.

That's the thing that bothers me is they arn't doing "new things" but rather just copy-pasting ideas from other developers have been known to work.

All this does is prove that the developers for Final Fantasy have completely run out of original or new ideas (with the possible exception of FFXV) and are now just going to paste FF characters with other game's formulas.

It is sad to see a series I loved lose their identity.

Personally, I think it's a little early to be saying that since the game isn't out in the wild yet, but I totally get the concern since it's traditionally a turn-based game.

That said, I would rather them try out things from other games with their own twist rather than keep doing the same thing over and over again, and have it feel stale. Maybe they want to do something different with this one game that fits the game's story, but I'm just guessing.

It may be a bit too early to call but when all the news and trailers I see make me want the game less as a FF fan, It is hard not to assume it will be crap.

See that's the thing, FF I-X for me each had something new and interesting in them. They were able to create interesting new battle mechanics and characters every single game. None of the gameplay feels stale when I play them. They all have something unique about them but still retain that "final fantasy feel" if you can understand what I am talking about.

Yet in FFXII, XIII, and XIII-2 it all feels like we are playing a game that is just trying to take other game ideas that have worked out and then try and jam FF into it and expect it to work. Neither of those 3 games I listed have any sort of FF feel to it. Many of the characters just come out flat and boring.

For all its flaws FFXII actually had some things I liked about it just not enough to redeem it. While FFXIII's universe is just one big pile of poo that SE refuses to flush.

No I see where you're coming from. I'm a Silent Hill 'fan', so I'm used to this kind of thing.

I think where we differ is that I never grew up playing Final Fantasy and the first one I ever played was FFXIII and I enjoyed it. I don't have a personal point of reference other than people screaming at me for how wrong I am for liking it and that I should try such and such in the series. Looking at the whole series I can see FFXIII being completely polarizing, and that might be because, from what I understand, that they were changing things on the fly while trying to get the game out.

There are things wrong with FFXIII that I will readily admit to not liking, but I did think XIII-2 fixed a lot of what was wrong with the one before it. Do I think the third one is gonna convince people to try it out for doing things different? Probably not. Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic about this one because I want to know if the changes they do justify anything in the game.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

Not possible. FF is at it's core cheap as hell. The point is to out-cheap the enemy. Dark Souls and Demon's Souls are very fair.

 

[KingdomFantasyXIII]

As a fan of FF13 but not FF13-2, I have to say this sounds more and more interesting as time goes on. Reading up on what the creators are doing this time around makes me more and more positive on this spinoff game than I have on the majority other FF spinoffs. The only FF spinoffs I have ever liked were Crisis Core: FF7, Dissidia, Dissidia 012 and Theaterythem.

 

[bjj hero]

Dark souls isn't difficult.

Its just cheap. Ive been able to take the traps, they can be spotted if youre paying attention. I can deal with the ambushes that only work because the camera is shit. Ive got over thinking the shield mechanics are broken because Id entered an area I wasnt ready for early with no way of telling I shouldnt be there. That early on I was mulling over whether the shield is not an option in the game or that I was getting the mechanics fundamentally wrong.

Once youve took time to block and look at the attack patterns its not that hard, I just exploit the shit AI. From enemies that will sit still while I take 15 minutes to shoot them to death over and over again, to skeletons that will happily dive off cliffs like lemmings to Fatties that will stand shouting while I back stab them over and over, knights that will come just within my range to be hit then wander off over and over again until dead. The game seems to have been thrown together.

But last night I was 1 shotted by a living chest with no "tells" this would be any different that the tens of other chests Ive opened. No chance to dodge/block just an animated eating sequence and about 4 hours worth of souls and humanity gone. Dont think Ill be loading Dark Souls up again. I like tough and challenging, Ive beaten contra, thunder force, R Type, bionic commando, ninja gaiden, gouls and ghosts... but that was just the developer being a tool.

OT, its about time they tried something different with FF, Ive not played a "traditional" JRPG in ages. I kind of feel been there done that with all of it. If it shapes up they may get me on board.

 

[Trueflame]

If true, it sounds like a better battle system than what FFXIII games have had so far. I don't really care if the Final Fantasy series sticks with true turn based gameplay like in FFX, or has an ATB gauge like in FF9, or takes a more action oriented approach like Kingdom Hearts. I just want it to have good characters, a good story, good music, and good overall presentation levels. That's what separates FF games from others in the genre, I believe. They also need to maintain strong RPG elements like customization, various attributes and equipment, and so on. That's another area where the FFXIII games dropped the ball, because even though they had the sphere leveling mechanic, as though trying to call back to FFX, it didn't allow for any of the interesting customization that the latter game offered. All in all, I'm cautiously optimistic, and at the very least if they screw it up here, it'll be good training for FF15.

 

[karloss01]

Hope it does well, for me I only liked the PS1 Final Fantasies once they started messing with the formula after IX it started to fall apart.

 

[Colt47]

From the sounds of it this game is going to be for a very specific audience given the implications. Majora's Mask and Ephemeral Fantasia worked out fine since if the apocalypse happened time just rewound. However, we really don't know how this game is going to work with the time beyond there being seven to thirteen days. Also, Dark Souls mechanics doesn't mean Dark Souls difficulty.

 

[Seracen]

Square Enix should really just be trying to do their own thing. Chasing someone else's idea will lead to disaster if there's no passion for the concept.

If there is, I retract the statement. However, I've cared little for this series in particular, and FF in general, of late. They need something fresh, a return to form, and copy-pasting a mechanic that has no business in FF will do them no favors.

I'm actually excited about FF15, but even I have to admit the gameplay looks more like DMC than FF (as long as it isn't DmC...).

Anyone else feel like S-E is trolling us with the HD remakes? 8-10...really?

I'd honestly prefer they remake 1-6 over the next decade with all the spiffy graphics.

 

[duchaked]

yeah well I've already got my eyes on 15...hoping that one turns out good

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This game just looks better and better the more I hear about it. I'm especially interested to see how the time limit plays out in practice.

I don't know why people are complaining about the loss of turn-based combat now, when Final Fantasy hasn't really had it since IV and the previous two FF XIII games didn't even pretend to be turn-based.

ATB was a turn based battle system. Both 12 and 13 had turn based systems behind the scenes. If it's strictly turn based that you are talking about, you forgot about 10 and 10-2.

Didn't X-2 have ATB? I know it at least took time for characters to act once you gave them commands.

Anyway, it's true that ATB isn't fully real-time in the way that Lightning Returns proposes to be, but it also isn't turn-based in the same way that, say, Xenosaga, Breath of Fire, or even FF Tactics are. It's never really one character's turn in an ATB system, because other characters can be deciding and taking actions at the same time (i.e. an enemy can attack while you're making your menu choices, or you can attack or select what you want to do while an enemy prepares to attack). XIII and XIII-2 were even farther away from pure turn-based combat than usual because they required you to react to enemy abilities as they happened (i.e. an enemy would begin an animation, an attack name would appear over its head, and the game expected you to switch paradigms before the enemy animation had finished).

 

[WeepingAngels]

This game just looks better and better the more I hear about it. I'm especially interested to see how the time limit plays out in practice.

I don't know why people are complaining about the loss of turn-based combat now, when Final Fantasy hasn't really had it since IV and the previous two FF XIII games didn't even pretend to be turn-based.

ATB was a turn based battle system. Both 12 and 13 had turn based systems behind the scenes. If it's strictly turn based that you are talking about, you forgot about 10 and 10-2.

Didn't X-2 have ATB? I know it at least took time for characters to act once you gave them commands.

Anyway, it's true that ATB isn't fully real-time in the way that Lightning Returns proposes to be, but it also isn't turn-based in the same way that, say, Xenosaga, Breath of Fire, or even FF Tactics are. It's never really one character's turn in an ATB system, because other characters can be deciding and taking actions at the same time (i.e. an enemy can attack while you're making your menu choices, or you can attack or select what you want to do while an enemy prepares to attack). XIII and XIII-2 were even farther away from pure turn-based combat than usual because they required you to react to enemy abilities as they happened (i.e. an enemy would begin an animation, an attack name would appear over its head, and the game expected you to switch paradigms before the enemy animation had finished).

I think that ATB is certainly closer to turn based combat than real time. In fact, I found ATB to often be slower than true turn based combat, especially when comparing 9 to 10.

Everyone wanting Kingdom Hearts combat should just play Kingdom Hearts. You don't hear us turn based fans asking for Kingdom Hearts to become more turn based.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This game just looks better and better the more I hear about it. I'm especially interested to see how the time limit plays out in practice.

I don't know why people are complaining about the loss of turn-based combat now, when Final Fantasy hasn't really had it since IV and the previous two FF XIII games didn't even pretend to be turn-based.

ATB was a turn based battle system. Both 12 and 13 had turn based systems behind the scenes. If it's strictly turn based that you are talking about, you forgot about 10 and 10-2.

Didn't X-2 have ATB? I know it at least took time for characters to act once you gave them commands.

Anyway, it's true that ATB isn't fully real-time in the way that Lightning Returns proposes to be, but it also isn't turn-based in the same way that, say, Xenosaga, Breath of Fire, or even FF Tactics are. It's never really one character's turn in an ATB system, because other characters can be deciding and taking actions at the same time (i.e. an enemy can attack while you're making your menu choices, or you can attack or select what you want to do while an enemy prepares to attack). XIII and XIII-2 were even farther away from pure turn-based combat than usual because they required you to react to enemy abilities as they happened (i.e. an enemy would begin an animation, an attack name would appear over its head, and the game expected you to switch paradigms before the enemy animation had finished).

I think that ATB is certainly closer to turn based combat than real time. In fact, I found ATB to often be slower than true turn based combat, especially when comparing 9 to 10.

Everyone wanting Kingdom Hearts combat should just play Kingdom Hearts. You don't hear us turn based fans asking for Kingdom Hearts to become more turn based.

I feel that you are attributing an argument to me that I have never made. I have nothing against turn-based combat and have never suggested that turn-based games should switch to real time systems. I merely said that the real time combat system I am seeing in trailers for Lightning Returns looks like a lot of fun and that I don't understand people complaining about the departure from turn-based combat in a sequel to Final Fantasy XIII, which is already mechanically divergent from every other FF game to the point that a significant portion of the fanbase raised the same complaints against its original combat system. I understand the feeling more in relation to XV. I think it will probably be fun, but I wouldn't particularly care to see the main FF series completely abandon turn-based or semi-turn-based systems in favor of Kingdom Hearts-like combat (actually, what interests me most about what we've seen of Lightning Returns is the extent to which it deviates from that model).

While I would agree that ATB is quite distinct from the combat of a real time action game, it still feels quite different from most truly turn-based systems to me. The FF XIII games in particular made me feel more like I was issuing real-time orders to a squad in a small-scale strategy game than anything like the sort of direct management I'm used to in games like Shadow Hearts.

 

[newwiseman]

Remove the name Final Fantasy from the title and I may care.

To me Final Fantasy should always be some form a turn based combat, and after that story story story; sadly Square seems to think the key to FF is graphics graphics graphics... Oh well.

 

[Sack of Cheese]

I for once can't stand Lightning, bring back Fang instead, and Vanille. The real protagonists of FF13.

 

[Okysho]

What's wrong with having a decent action RPG with the amazing storytelling elements from the JRPGs that we love mixed with good gameplay? If that's what square is trying to do, why should we whine about that?

I hear a lot of people complain that JRPG turn-based combat is what keeps them away (I heard a lot of other things about JRPG stories too, but that's not the focus here) but when that factor is eliminated and suddenly it's real time, it's crap? Namco has been doing this for years with the Tales series and I'm pretty sure The Last Story proved to be a good JRPG with real-time combat too. What's the problem here?

 

[My name is Fiction]

Dark souls isn't difficult.

Its just cheap. Ive been able to take the traps, they can be spotted if youre paying attention. I can deal with the ambushes that only work because the camera is shit. Ive got over thinking the shield mechanics are broken because Id entered an area I wasnt ready for early with no way of telling I shouldnt be there. That early on I was mulling over whether the shield is not an option in the game or that I was getting the mechanics fundamentally wrong.

Once youve took time to block and look at the attack patterns its not that hard, I just exploit the shit AI. From enemies that will sit still while I take 15 minutes to shoot them to death over and over again, to skeletons that will happily dive off cliffs like lemmings to Fatties that will stand shouting while I back stab them over and over, knights that will come just within my range to be hit then wander off over and over again until dead. The game seems to have been thrown together.

But last night I was 1 shotted by a living chest with no "tells" this would be any different that the tens of other chests Ive opened. No chance to dodge/block just an animated eating sequence and about 4 hours worth of souls and humanity gone. Dont think Ill be loading Dark Souls up again. I like tough and challenging, Ive beaten contra, thunder force, R Type, bionic commando, ninja gaiden, gouls and ghosts... but that was just the developer being a tool.

OT, its about time they tried something different with FF, Ive not played a "traditional" JRPG in ages. I kind of feel been there done that with all of it. If it shapes up they may get me on board.

The wood of chests are of a lighter wood, the chain is also in the reverse position. If you look you can see them open up for a sec to breath. Also you can button mash to break the graples. The game doesn't hold your hand so you call it broken.

 

[bjj hero]

The wood of chests are of a lighter wood, the chain is also in the reverse position. If you look you can see them open up for a sec to breath. Also you can button mash to break the graples. The game doesn't hold your hand so you call it broken.

We have to disagree then. A chest in a dark room, there is no reason to take a minute or two to watch a chest and see if its breathing when every chest in the past 20 plus hours Id opened had been just fine. Thats a cheap shot. Even more so than the ambushes that only work because the camera is terrible.

And whos to know you can "mash" your way out? Ive not button mashed at anything in the game (so far its a game of timing and picking your shots, button mashing doesnt seem a good or intuitive fit) so why would I expect it to make a difference there?

I dont expect my hand to be held, Ive avoided guides and stuff because I dont want to spoil anything but that was a cheap shot. If anything is broken though its the awful AI. Terrible PS1 level stuff with monsters getting stuck, willingly jumping off cliffs or standing still while you shoot them to death with 40+ arrows. Invisible lines enemies wont cross so I can sit one side and chip them to death without any risk. Monsters I can just walk around and back stab... Its a long list. Did anyone play test it?

Heres hoping FF can do better with the AI.

 

[My name is Fiction]

The wood of chests are of a lighter wood, the chain is also in the reverse position. If you look you can see them open up for a sec to breath. Also you can button mash to break the graples. The game doesn't hold your hand so you call it broken.

We have to disagree then. A chest in a dark room, there is no reason to take a minute or two to watch a chest and see if its breathing when every chest in the past 20 plus hours Id opened had been just fine. Thats a cheap shot. Even more so than the ambushes that only work because the camera is terrible.

And whos to know you can "mash" your way out? Ive not button mashed at anything in the game (so far its a game of timing and picking your shots, button mashing doesnt seem a good or intuitive fit) so why would I expect it to make a difference there?

I dont expect my hand to be held, Ive avoided guides and stuff because I dont want to spoil anything but that was a cheap shot. If anything is broken though its the awful AI. Terrible PS1 level stuff with monsters getting stuck, willingly jumping off cliffs or standing still while you shoot them to death with 40+ arrows. Invisible lines enemies wont cross so I can sit one side and chip them to death without any risk. Monsters I can just walk around and back stab... Its a long list. Did anyone play test it?

Heres hoping FF can do better with the AI.

Even though darksouls stays away from videogame motifs like red explosive barrels game logic provides that if you ever get grappled button mash. Also since I assume it was the first chest that got you why did you have 3 hours of souls on you!? Unless you was noming on every soul you got which was a bad idea, or on humanities, which the gains in loot chance scale up to 10 that was a disaster waiting to happen. One homeward bone could have saved all that.

 

[bjj hero]

Even though darksouls stays away from videogame motifs like red explosive barrels game logic provides that if you ever get grappled button mash. Also since I assume it was the first chest that got you why did you have 3 hours of souls on you!? Unless you was noming on every soul you got which was a bad idea, or on humanities, which the gains in loot chance scale up to 10 that was a disaster waiting to happen. One homeward bone could have saved all that.

Again, theres been no other "mash" mechanic all game. Ive had messages in the about block, roll, strong and light attacks. Something potantially life saving like that should have been made clear or hinted at. Hence I had no idea until you mentioned it and Ive moved on to other games.

As far as the stock Id lost. Humanity is for item drops and pvp, once youve kidled the fires youve needed to theres not much else to spend them on so it collects. I was saving souls for absolution (Which seems really over priced) as Id earler cut that cat in the woods thing a new arse hole and wanted to make friends again. Id said "no" to it without quite understanding what he was asking. I wanted to see what yes did. I didnt fancy using a homeward spell as Id come through all manner of traps to get this far and was trying to reach the next fire.