I'm sure that elements of the Thrawn trilogy and other really big stories will probably carry over into the new films. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, one of these spin off movies has to be about Rogue Squadron.
Lucasfilm Makes It Official: Star Wars: Expanded Universe Is Dead
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Though he may be gone he will never be forgotten; Kyle Katarn will always live on in our hearts, in his deeds, his legends and the lessons he taught us. He was the one who taught me the way of a true hero. "Remember Jaden, abilities are inherently good or evil, it's how you use them" thus began my force lightning filled killing spree, slaughtering hordes of foes and force choke/flinging enemies off of edges. I recall laughing maniacally while I dangled them over the abyss, giving them a few precious seconds to think on their life choices before dropping them to their enevitable demise...*cough* err...eh-hem... for the greater good of course...true hero and such.
All this means is that the films (And presumably certain games) won't acknowledge the EU; this is nowhere near enough to kill the expanded universe.
Lucas Film can call it whatever the fuck they want; fans will continue to respect the EU, and book authors will as well if they don't want to incur the wrath of the fanbom. I'll bet that despite all this, Wookiepedia will do nothing more than pop a disclaimer over their articles and carry on as if nothing happened.
While Lucas was busy drawing up the concept for that insufferable creature that shall not be named, the EU authors, Bioware and Obsidian were dreaming up Darth Bane, Darth Nihlus, Darth Sion, Kreia, Bastila, HK-47, Korriban, Malachor V, The Starforge, the Mandalorians, the origins of the Jedi and the code of the Sith.
The EU of Star Wars dwarfs the official cannon, and is almost universally considered to be superior to the prequel trilogy, and is sometimes even thought to eclipse the originals.
George Lucas may have created Star Wars, but it has survived and thrived in the hands of of it's fanbase; if they want people to hold the films in a higher regard than the games and novels, they should start by making them better.
Lucas Film can call it whatever the fuck they want; fans will continue to respect the EU, and book authors will as well if they don't want to incur the wrath of the fanbom. I'll bet that despite all this, Wookiepedia will do nothing more than pop a disclaimer over their articles and carry on as if nothing happened.
While Lucas was busy drawing up the concept for that insufferable creature that shall not be named, the EU authors, Bioware and Obsidian were dreaming up Darth Bane, Darth Nihlus, Darth Sion, Kreia, Bastila, HK-47, Korriban, Malachor V, The Starforge, the Mandalorians, the origins of the Jedi and the code of the Sith.
The EU of Star Wars dwarfs the official cannon, and is almost universally considered to be superior to the prequel trilogy, and is sometimes even thought to eclipse the originals.
George Lucas may have created Star Wars, but it has survived and thrived in the hands of of it's fanbase; if they want people to hold the films in a higher regard than the games and novels, they should start by making them better.
Internal consistency is important in any story; if things can just happen for no reason than the entire point of hypothesizing is lost.xdiesp said:
I'm not sure what games count towards the EU material other than Jedi Academy so I'm going to say no in terms of games.sumanoskae said:
Books, I have read quite a few of some years back. I remember really liking them at first but I started to dislike them the more I read. To me the books read like fanfiction, which ended up putting me off them.
It doesn't surprise me at all, though I imagine it's going to make some people really unhappy in the fan community.
That said, such an official statement might have just been the first shot in a war that is going to wreck the entire thing depending on how it goes. Simply put, Star Wars has had some rather interesting contractual issues over the years and right now I'd imagine a lot of writers publishers are currently going over the fine print in their contracts and/or contacting their lawyers and notaries (notaries being important because they can be used to argue what the understanding of a complicated agreement was, which can trump what was actually written, this is why for a lot of contracts both sides will have at least one notary present to counter-sign... it can get complicated, I learned some stuff about it in school, but Contract Law wasn't a specialty).
So far George Lucas has pretty much "sold" the rights to Star Wars and the canon twice. The first time was in the creation of a bunch of "Young Adults" books with titles like "Prophets Of The Dark Side", and "The Glove Of Darth Vader" which weren't exactly wonderful. In this version which was the official future by agreement, The Grand Moffs decided to produce a false heir to step in on Papaltine's throne, who would actually be their puppet. This was a guy called Triclops (if I remember) who didn't have force powers, but faked them with cybernetics to "prove" he was the heir, using things like Tractor Beams to perform telekinesis, and energy projectors in his hands to throw "force lightning". The second time was when he sold the rights to "Dark Horse Comics" which lead to them doing a lot of work, George actually got into a legal battle with them over this when he wanted control of the property back, part of the settlement was if I remember that "Shadows Of The Empire" would be officially considered part of the canon along with some other things. In these cases George pretty much sold Star Wars because he underestimate how much money could still be made off of the property and how long it would go on, and pulled the "original creator" card to get sympathy when in court.
I'm unsure of the status of the current EU which picked up with Timothy Zahn's writings about Thrawn, and what was agreed on then. Indeed it was around this time that the term "expanded universe" started slipping into the popular vernacular. It went on so long to become unwieldy, with too many writers, and too many contradictory ideas addressing the same basic material (like Mandolorians and their nature). With the sheer number of people involved though a lot if it is going to come back to what agreements the publishers had.
See, "canon" can be a valuable thing. Half the point of a lot of published novels, and what allegedly makes them better than someone's "fan fiction" is that they were done under the license and had to be picked up/approved by the publisher holding it. Your published work being "true" and "the real continuation" is a big part of the selling point and something your professional career and the value of the parts of an ongoing IP you developed are going to be under.
I remember years ago, George Lucas allegedly said there would never be Star Wars sequels because he wasn't going to step into this minefield. He's sold the rights yet again, and honestly the current overall holder is big enough where I don't think he'll ever get full control back again (he's not dealing with a comics company this time), but even "The House Of Mouse" could be in for some serious headaches if individual writers and publishers show up contract-in-hand and a valid argument. The sheer number of suits, settlements, and/or pay outs could be staggering.
I'm also reminded of Sony running "Star Wars Galaxies" back in the day and how they apparently needed to get permission when they added things into the game, not to mention it's tie ins with things like the "Death Troopers" series (Zombie Storm Troopers). It seemed like very careful track of the rights and what was being used for what was still going on, and now all those same bean counters are going to be equally defensive here. Except in this case there will probably have to be guarantees of "this remaining canon" and "you'll need to mention these things in your material to validate my work or I'll sue for breach of contract" or whatever else.
I'm probably overthinking things, but it will be interesting to see how things turn out. To be honest it seems like the rather broad strokes they are taking here could backfire on a lot of levels. The guys doing the new movies of course want to pursue their own vision and not feel tied down by anyone else's work. Of course the guys who themselves were in the same position when they were writing and got the rights, think the same thing. I was never heavily invested in the EU to begin with (and feel some of it was rather dumb, and missed the point) so I'm fine with them axing it, but then again I neither had a career based around producing Star Wars material, nor did I invest heavily in EU material to the point where it becoming devalued or irrelevant bothers me.
That said, such an official statement might have just been the first shot in a war that is going to wreck the entire thing depending on how it goes. Simply put, Star Wars has had some rather interesting contractual issues over the years and right now I'd imagine a lot of writers publishers are currently going over the fine print in their contracts and/or contacting their lawyers and notaries (notaries being important because they can be used to argue what the understanding of a complicated agreement was, which can trump what was actually written, this is why for a lot of contracts both sides will have at least one notary present to counter-sign... it can get complicated, I learned some stuff about it in school, but Contract Law wasn't a specialty).
So far George Lucas has pretty much "sold" the rights to Star Wars and the canon twice. The first time was in the creation of a bunch of "Young Adults" books with titles like "Prophets Of The Dark Side", and "The Glove Of Darth Vader" which weren't exactly wonderful. In this version which was the official future by agreement, The Grand Moffs decided to produce a false heir to step in on Papaltine's throne, who would actually be their puppet. This was a guy called Triclops (if I remember) who didn't have force powers, but faked them with cybernetics to "prove" he was the heir, using things like Tractor Beams to perform telekinesis, and energy projectors in his hands to throw "force lightning". The second time was when he sold the rights to "Dark Horse Comics" which lead to them doing a lot of work, George actually got into a legal battle with them over this when he wanted control of the property back, part of the settlement was if I remember that "Shadows Of The Empire" would be officially considered part of the canon along with some other things. In these cases George pretty much sold Star Wars because he underestimate how much money could still be made off of the property and how long it would go on, and pulled the "original creator" card to get sympathy when in court.
I'm unsure of the status of the current EU which picked up with Timothy Zahn's writings about Thrawn, and what was agreed on then. Indeed it was around this time that the term "expanded universe" started slipping into the popular vernacular. It went on so long to become unwieldy, with too many writers, and too many contradictory ideas addressing the same basic material (like Mandolorians and their nature). With the sheer number of people involved though a lot if it is going to come back to what agreements the publishers had.
See, "canon" can be a valuable thing. Half the point of a lot of published novels, and what allegedly makes them better than someone's "fan fiction" is that they were done under the license and had to be picked up/approved by the publisher holding it. Your published work being "true" and "the real continuation" is a big part of the selling point and something your professional career and the value of the parts of an ongoing IP you developed are going to be under.
I remember years ago, George Lucas allegedly said there would never be Star Wars sequels because he wasn't going to step into this minefield. He's sold the rights yet again, and honestly the current overall holder is big enough where I don't think he'll ever get full control back again (he's not dealing with a comics company this time), but even "The House Of Mouse" could be in for some serious headaches if individual writers and publishers show up contract-in-hand and a valid argument. The sheer number of suits, settlements, and/or pay outs could be staggering.
I'm also reminded of Sony running "Star Wars Galaxies" back in the day and how they apparently needed to get permission when they added things into the game, not to mention it's tie ins with things like the "Death Troopers" series (Zombie Storm Troopers). It seemed like very careful track of the rights and what was being used for what was still going on, and now all those same bean counters are going to be equally defensive here. Except in this case there will probably have to be guarantees of "this remaining canon" and "you'll need to mention these things in your material to validate my work or I'll sue for breach of contract" or whatever else.
I'm probably overthinking things, but it will be interesting to see how things turn out. To be honest it seems like the rather broad strokes they are taking here could backfire on a lot of levels. The guys doing the new movies of course want to pursue their own vision and not feel tied down by anyone else's work. Of course the guys who themselves were in the same position when they were writing and got the rights, think the same thing. I was never heavily invested in the EU to begin with (and feel some of it was rather dumb, and missed the point) so I'm fine with them axing it, but then again I neither had a career based around producing Star Wars material, nor did I invest heavily in EU material to the point where it becoming devalued or irrelevant bothers me.
Who cares anyway, it's not like the books are going to dissapear and the movies have to work on their own. It would suck if you suddenly had to read a bunch of Star Wars books to watch a movie. Besides, who cares about continuity anyway? At this scale it just gets ridiculous imo.
Most of the chucklecunts celebrating this probably haven't even picked up one of the books in their life.
They can go fuck themselves frankly.
They can go fuck themselves frankly.
This really doesn't surprise me that much, now with JJ at the helm of the new Star Wars movies. Supposedly he left the NuTrek movies over merchandising rights-he was opposed to the idea of pre-NuTrek products being sold alongside and thus competing with NuTrek merchandise. He wanted to be the sole voice on Trek, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he'd demand that he be the sole authority on NuWars canon. Guy's just got too big a head to tolerate other folk infringing on his artistic vision.
On the one hand, this gives me a huge sigh of relief because the EU's no longer so huge and bloated with an all-inclusive canon and makes it easier to pick and choose things I like and ignore what I don't-since it's all essentially equally non-canon. (excepting whatever fanboy dross that JJ shoehorns in like he did in the first two NuTrek films). This means I no longer have to deal with that 'no canon darkside endings' garbage policy Lucas had for the video games, and can more easily ignore TOR.
On the other hand, that effectively closes the door on a lot of things I liked about the EU. All the nice starfighter additions (wouldn't be surprised if stuff like E-wings and TIE-defenders etc don't appear in the new movies) and of course a lot of the post-RoTJ stuff like the Jedi Knight/Jedi Academy games got another nail in their coffins.
On the one hand, this gives me a huge sigh of relief because the EU's no longer so huge and bloated with an all-inclusive canon and makes it easier to pick and choose things I like and ignore what I don't-since it's all essentially equally non-canon. (excepting whatever fanboy dross that JJ shoehorns in like he did in the first two NuTrek films). This means I no longer have to deal with that 'no canon darkside endings' garbage policy Lucas had for the video games, and can more easily ignore TOR.
On the other hand, that effectively closes the door on a lot of things I liked about the EU. All the nice starfighter additions (wouldn't be surprised if stuff like E-wings and TIE-defenders etc don't appear in the new movies) and of course a lot of the post-RoTJ stuff like the Jedi Knight/Jedi Academy games got another nail in their coffins.
I seriously don't see how people didn't see this coming. They chose a director that already stuck his shit covered hands in one great science fiction franchise, and now they gave him the other giant chunk of sci-fi to tear the hell up.SonOfVoorhees said:
JJ Abrams borked up the Star Trek franchise and now he's moved onto Star Wars. I just happen to be an unlucky person that I love both franchises.
I have a feeling that this is happening because they've given Abrams a large part of control of this, then he heard that the EU was something that Star Wars fans loved, so he said, "Oh they love that, then we've got to get rid of that." He probably was afraid it would get in the way of his "creativity" and "vision".
The man is like a plague on sci-fi, whatever he touches, gets sick, turns black, and falls to bits.
With my luck as a fan of a lot of science fiction franchises, I'm just waiting that after Abrams rampages through Star Wars, stamping it out, I'm going to hear he is doing a "re-imagining" of the Stargate franchise.
Though, I don't know how much more damage he can do to Stargate, since whoever got a hold of it at "SyFy" already took a wrecking ball to the franchise by making Stargate Universe(which made them cancel the Atlantis series for it, and when it failed, got the planned Atlantis movie production pulled), but I'm willing to bet Abrams will be more than happy to come along and beat a dead horse into smaller bits.
I'm feel you are talking about JJ Abrams and his Star Trek movies right(as they changed Star Trek canon by becoming a core part of the Star Trek MMO). Yup, he is quite the villain isn't he. I feel the pain all around. The man is a menace to lovers of science fiction, and as I a said above, I'm willing to bet he had a hand in saying that the EU of Star Wars isn't canon now.nima55 said:
Gosh, I hope his franchise murder spree stops before he reaches the likes of Stargate and Babylon 5. What he did to Trek (and almost certainly what's going to happen to Star Wars) is bad enough.Sonic Doctor said:
And yeah...the MMO. A lot of people seem to think that this isn't really going to change anything. I say "look at all the trenchcoat-wearing, tattooed Romulans running around in Star Trek Online". I think it's a safe bet that NuTrek will reinvent Star Wars on a similar level. And it will effect the novels and video games that follow. We aren't going to get a new trek game with Romulans as the same kind of sneaky jerks with bowlcuts because JJ blew up their planet and remade them into emo skinhead bikers. Likewise we are unlikely to get a new Jedi Academy game because JJ's Star Wars is unlikely to accommodate such post-RoTJ material. Heck, he might even decide to do something 'dramatic' by killing off a main (or even tertiary character). What will the future of the Rogue Squadron games be if JJ decides to kill of Wedge for cheap thrills like he blew up Vulcan or Romulus? What if he decides to kill off Lando, or someone like Luke?
That's exactly my thinking. There is no way Abrams didn't have a hand in pulling the plug on the Star Wars EU. The man loves to ignore what came before and say, "my vision is now canon." I seriously believe the man gets a sick pleasure from purposefully giving a middle finger to fans and of major franchises and say, "oh you like that, well it isn't part of my vision so it isn't important/or doesn't exist now."Oroboros said:
He is of the style of people I can't stand. People that don't understand what is important about franchises and what makes them extremely popular and now an iconic part of culture.
Now, I didn't hear that he fully left working on Star Trek. Hmm, I know Abrams has horribly injured and disfigured the Star Trek franchise with his films, but maybe, just maybe we can find a saint of a person to swoop in and heal the wounds and maybe excise the cancerous tumor that is Abrams' "Trek" films, to deem them non-canon, and then get the franchise running back to normal, maybe get a great new TV series that is on par with TNG and DS9, in the proper canon universe.
Seriously, I know I'm a glutton for punishment and a bit too hopeful. But really all whoever owns Trek now has to do is come out and say Abrams storyline is a mistake and retcon it.Oroboros said:
I know they are the ones that are guiding the Star Trek MMO, but it wouldn't be too hard to rewrite the game to get rid of Abrams work, it might take a couple years and a big expansion, but hey, it is possible. If any newbies to Star Trek whine, we can tell them to get with the program because we are restoring Star Trek to it's former glory.
Hey, I like STO, but only because I ignore any story points that heavily point out Abrams work, and I also have my characters wear classic TNG movie uniforms.
And that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for me to NOT see these movies. Not because I'm so fixated on a particular EU storyline that I wanted it in the movie, It's because this was a amazing opportunity to set up something completely new, different, and exciting for the star wars franchise. They could have gone so far into the future or like the KOTOR did and go into the long distant past that they could bring in anything they wanted. But because this is fucking Hollywood they said, "Think outside our little box? Perish the thought! Time to ring up all the old factors to get nostalgia from all those nerds who love throwing their money at us." And this is all I'm seeing out of this.
JJ is a glorified fanboy who can't actually direct but because he's a nerd everyone loves him. Everyone is getting excited for the "Return of Han solo" which in reality it's kinda sad that they have to drag him or anyone else into this. Nerds need to stop running off their nostalgia factor alone for judging if something is going to be good, because it's killing everything.
JJ is a glorified fanboy who can't actually direct but because he's a nerd everyone loves him. Everyone is getting excited for the "Return of Han solo" which in reality it's kinda sad that they have to drag him or anyone else into this. Nerds need to stop running off their nostalgia factor alone for judging if something is going to be good, because it's killing everything.
It was always dead to me in the first place. Never thought of it as anything other than fan fiction.
I get the why, but it still feels like this is a middle finger to the fans that have been keeping Star Wars alive by consuming all of the media released to the Expanded Universe. Some of the stories weren't great, sure, but more than half of the actual Star Wars films are also less than mediocre.
I'm not saying that Star Wars needed to be kept alive through the EU, the franchise's marketability practically prints money, but I really feel like this is going to ostracize certain fans even further from the new trilogy, but maybe they'd given up on getting those people anyway. But re-purposing certain characters seems like a stupid idea - either sever the EU completely or not at all. I'd rather not see Abrams' take on Thrawn after seeing how he and his crew handled Khan.
I'm not saying that Star Wars needed to be kept alive through the EU, the franchise's marketability practically prints money, but I really feel like this is going to ostracize certain fans even further from the new trilogy, but maybe they'd given up on getting those people anyway. But re-purposing certain characters seems like a stupid idea - either sever the EU completely or not at all. I'd rather not see Abrams' take on Thrawn after seeing how he and his crew handled Khan.
I really don't understand Star Wars fans feeling like they, "Wasted their time." If you enjoyed the books, who cares, you had a good time. If you didn't enjoy the books, well A. you should have stopped sooner, and B. You should be glad they are no longer part of the continuity.
Most of the EU was crap anyway, so really nothing of value was lost.
Yes, it lost the Thrawn trilogy, but it also lost Luke Skywalker saves space whales (yes, that is a thing).
Most of the EU was crap anyway, so really nothing of value was lost.
Yes, it lost the Thrawn trilogy, but it also lost Luke Skywalker saves space whales (yes, that is a thing).
^Bingo.sumanoskae said:
Internal Consistency is important for any story; fantastical or otherwise and not just some silly thing that only nerds harp on to be pedantic.
When one changes canonicity of anything, they're changing the internal logic.
Change it too often, and any notion of consistency is lost. Without consistency, there's no tension or closure.
Why get invested in any story without tension or closure?
Meaning: If a creator wants to declare something non-canon or retcon, they had better have a damn good reason: One that is better than "Because it's convenient for me."
Sadly, "convenience" is exactly the reason Disney is throwing out the entire expanded universe (and not just the parts they can't resolve in production). Now, I don't doubt that Disney is going to launch a "New EU" because they'd have to be stupid not to; there's a tremendous amount of money to be made there.
Yet, I'm not going to bother getting invested again.
If internal consistency is something Disney (or any creator) is willing to discard for the whim of their shareholders, well, good for them but new sources of revenue and higher profit margins for Disney are not the reason I got invested in Star Wars to begin with.
It might be interesting, it might be shite. Regardless, I'm staying far away.
(though with Abrams at the helm, I'm not confident at all)
I'm torn. On one hand, I absolutely despised the new Jedi Order, and that one book where Han Solo fought off zombies (sorry, "DEATH TROOPERS.") On the other hand, CADE SKYWALKER WAS AWESOME >.<