Marion Zimmer Bradley Sexually Molested Me, Daughter Accuses
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The gist of the comment seemed to be "Are we sure it's for real". Maybe I just didn't read enough into their post but I don't know them from Adam beyond what they said and they asked if we were sure and then gave some potential scenarios where this person wouldn't necessarily be a reliable witness.LifeCharacter said:
I mean, I've heard some weird things said about people I personally know that I was shocked to hear. My response was exactly the same, "What? Are you sure?" But that wasn't denial, that was doubt. Those two things shouldn't be confused. Doubt is the basic form of justice of assuming a person's innocence until more information is revealed. Denial is saying that something isn't true despite existing evidence.
As far as I can tell, Zira didn't make a claim that the person was lying. Only asking if we had all the facts to know this to be truth or nearly enough. In my experience it has gone either way. Some were obviously guilty and some were obviously innocent with the majority remaining ambiguous in the guilt/innocence department. But in all scenarios I like to gather more facts before making a serious and stable opinion. Even here, I'll only commit to leaning towards the victim's side because of the situation at hand but I'm not about to judge the person with conviction unless I hear more facts. I also know that all I have is the statement of the daughter with no counter-statements confirming or denying the claims.
Ok, because I only found out about much of this at the beginning of the month and I can tell people are trying to catch up.
First, some facts about this accusation as a statement:
-Moira first mentioned this in a private email to a blogger (with a pretty small blog) who works in the sci-fi/fantasy publishing circles and had commented negatively on a puff piece Tor.com put up about MZB.
-The blogger got permission to share the email, as well as some poems that Moira had written about her mother that shed more light on the relationship/history.
-Moira is a professional harpist and music instructor, neither she nor her brother get any money from their mother's estate.
Second, some facts about MZB and the accusation:
-MZB covered for her pedophile husband for decades, even after they were separated. In her own words she said things like how she defended Walter Breen during a big scandal about his maybe molesting young men because she didn't think it was anyone's business because the kid didn't "strike [her] as a minor child" (even though he was 10 and 11 at the times in question).
-She also tried to adopt a kid without telling the guardians about her husband's past or that he'd spent time in bed with the boy because as far as she was aware her husband was impotent (with her, perhaps?) and nothing could happen that would "bother" anyone.
-Her secretary, lover (life partner?) testified at length about how yes she saw things and heard things around the house that seemed odd when she gave her initial statement or shared her written memory but there and now with her meal ticket/love in a civil suit she never actually SAW or HEARD or UNDERSTOOD anything. Like when MZB's daughter told Lisa that her mother had rubbed her breasts in the shower, obviously sharing something important to her, well Lisa mentioned it to MZB who said, "Children that age didn't have erogenous zones." Did Lisa ask if it was true, follow up on it in any way, or ever think about it again? Nope.
-Lisa also said that when MZB's son Patrick made it clear, during Walter Breen's criminal trial, that Walter had never molested him or his friends... well yes she did maybe get the implication that he may have been molested by MZB. No, no, she never followed up on that either.
Here are some relevant links:
SFF.net, where Steven Goldin keeps transcripts of depositions under oath by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Elizabeth (Lisa) Waters. Steven's step-son was one of those abused by Walter Breen, and his son eventually sued MZB and Waters for creating the opportunity for it to happen. You will find a number of admissions from MZB that she and her household knew things that absolutely flabbergast me (not least of which that her daughter had accused her father of rape, which apparently people put down to jealousy of the attention her brother got)
http://www.sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/index.html
Some background on the Walter Breen situation, remembering this is the guy MZB married and remained on very close terms with (same street, sleep-overs, etc) for a decade after their separation:
http://fancyclopedia.org/breendoggle
Here's a letter during that time-period by someone who was arguing against Breen's behavior (it's hard to tell with how breezily they describe situations "disturbing some" that would lead to the cops being called in any sane community) in a time when much of the fan community was outraged he'd been banned from a convention: http://breendoggle.wikia.com/wiki/Breendoggle_Wiki
First, some facts about this accusation as a statement:
-Moira first mentioned this in a private email to a blogger (with a pretty small blog) who works in the sci-fi/fantasy publishing circles and had commented negatively on a puff piece Tor.com put up about MZB.
-The blogger got permission to share the email, as well as some poems that Moira had written about her mother that shed more light on the relationship/history.
-Moira is a professional harpist and music instructor, neither she nor her brother get any money from their mother's estate.
Second, some facts about MZB and the accusation:
-MZB covered for her pedophile husband for decades, even after they were separated. In her own words she said things like how she defended Walter Breen during a big scandal about his maybe molesting young men because she didn't think it was anyone's business because the kid didn't "strike [her] as a minor child" (even though he was 10 and 11 at the times in question).
-She also tried to adopt a kid without telling the guardians about her husband's past or that he'd spent time in bed with the boy because as far as she was aware her husband was impotent (with her, perhaps?) and nothing could happen that would "bother" anyone.
-Her secretary, lover (life partner?) testified at length about how yes she saw things and heard things around the house that seemed odd when she gave her initial statement or shared her written memory but there and now with her meal ticket/love in a civil suit she never actually SAW or HEARD or UNDERSTOOD anything. Like when MZB's daughter told Lisa that her mother had rubbed her breasts in the shower, obviously sharing something important to her, well Lisa mentioned it to MZB who said, "Children that age didn't have erogenous zones." Did Lisa ask if it was true, follow up on it in any way, or ever think about it again? Nope.
-Lisa also said that when MZB's son Patrick made it clear, during Walter Breen's criminal trial, that Walter had never molested him or his friends... well yes she did maybe get the implication that he may have been molested by MZB. No, no, she never followed up on that either.
Here are some relevant links:
SFF.net, where Steven Goldin keeps transcripts of depositions under oath by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Elizabeth (Lisa) Waters. Steven's step-son was one of those abused by Walter Breen, and his son eventually sued MZB and Waters for creating the opportunity for it to happen. You will find a number of admissions from MZB that she and her household knew things that absolutely flabbergast me (not least of which that her daughter had accused her father of rape, which apparently people put down to jealousy of the attention her brother got)
http://www.sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/index.html
Some background on the Walter Breen situation, remembering this is the guy MZB married and remained on very close terms with (same street, sleep-overs, etc) for a decade after their separation:
http://fancyclopedia.org/breendoggle
Here's a letter during that time-period by someone who was arguing against Breen's behavior (it's hard to tell with how breezily they describe situations "disturbing some" that would lead to the cops being called in any sane community) in a time when much of the fan community was outraged he'd been banned from a convention: http://breendoggle.wikia.com/wiki/Breendoggle_Wiki
Well, I agree that the way the subject was breached certainly had that air about it. But those sentences are valid reasons to express reasons behind doubt. They're just saying, "This doesn't match the picture of the person I had" and "is the witness reliable?" I mean, people who think they know famous figures they've never met are naive at best but the belief that a statement contradicts what you know about a person isn't a bad thing as long as it can be overturned by reasonable means and evidence. Doesn't doubt immediately pop into your mind if something is said by someone you don't know about someone you do know and wouldn't think capable of such an act?LifeCharacter said:
The good thing about this girl coming forward is that if she wasn't the only one then we'll begin to see other people step forward in response to her courage. If not, we may never know for sure and I really hate that situation.
The implication of asking for additional information is to check the veracity of the witness. I would posit that the question, "Is this witness reliable" should always be asked and is not inherently bad. But "are they a liar?" is just another way to say the same thing, just not tactfully.
We do see a lot of assholes out there who just assume rape victims and such are liars. Those people should absolutely be called out but we've got to balance the act between calling those types out and not biting out at people who are just questioning the facts of the matter. Though you're right that the poster's method of questioning certainly lacked the sort of tact these situations demand.
Yes, questioning the facts can hurt the feelings of the victim. But the pursuit of innocence or guilt needs to take priority or we can't be a just society.
Interesting, we could at least consider MZB someone who aides and abets these kind of activities. That doesn't make her guilty per se, but it does lend more credence to the daughter's statements. Still, this could just as easily be a foolish defense of someone MZB loved. Got any evidence that would put MZB in question? Good stuff and links.Masked Brute said:
None of this changes what I said. It is played for a joke in comedy, entertainment, and to a lesser extent the news. The point was, even in the US you would be forgiven for thinking this wasn't a real organisation because, as I said, it's treated as a joke.albino boo said:
Whether or not it is a joke, or its sordid history, is completely irrelevant.
Is there any actual proof, though? I understand how it can be hard to doubt the words of someone who may have been abused, but surely we cannot pass judgement based on some blog posts?
None of us know if this is true. None of us know if this is false. Since it seems to matter to some people: I have read a few of her books, wasn't really impressed, but did read more than one.
There are certainly red flags, but we really can't know. Hopefully, witnesses will come forward with more information about this, though given the timeline, I'd worry that alleged victims might not see the point of publicizing their abuse. It's a lot easier to argue for accusing a living rapist than a dead one.
I think the moral of the story is that if you are being molested, get away and report it immediately. Moira coming forth decades ago would have been better for everyone involved, fandom be damned.
There are certainly red flags, but we really can't know. Hopefully, witnesses will come forward with more information about this, though given the timeline, I'd worry that alleged victims might not see the point of publicizing their abuse. It's a lot easier to argue for accusing a living rapist than a dead one.
I think the moral of the story is that if you are being molested, get away and report it immediately. Moira coming forth decades ago would have been better for everyone involved, fandom be damned.
One ticket for the "I don't know who Marion Zimmer Bradley is" train, please. And another for "Never gonna read her work" as well.
Correct, but it doesn't have to be someone that high profile as such, it can be someone admired on a smaller scale, that you know personally, or is big in your local community. Someone in your town's football club, or that nice kid next door, for example.Saetha said:
Whoa. I'd never read the Darkover books, but the name sounded familiar. So I looked her up on TVTropes, and holy shit, this woman apparently founded the Society for Creative Anachronism. Hope they don't catch any flak by association with this despicable woman. Hope her daughter recovers from the trauma of all this.
Christ, the world is bleak lately.
Christ, the world is bleak lately.
I had a huge ass post written up, but it looks to me like nothing will convince you. You like her, so you invent motives that there is absolutely no evidence for on the part of the victim, try and shoe horn in other writers who really have nothing to do with this, try and connect the people skeptical of her innocence with nazi's and witch hunters and call the victim "not-famous" like it is some sort of insult.Zira said:
Take this woman down off the pedestal. Then read post 45 of this thread.
When celebrities and famous people get accused of this type of thing, there are always issues with a lack of evidence. Because, in cases of abuse, there often isn't evidence. But this is one of the most clear cut cases of a revered person being accused of pedophilia.
Again, deciding other peoples motives for them. Incredibly poor form. Of course people you disagree with are just jealous of her. What other reason can there be for their opinion.
Do some research. Click the links people have provided in this very thread. In the news story at the very beginning.
We can't know for sure if she was guilty. We almost never can. But, as i said, cases of a beloved figure being accused of sexual abuse are rarely this clear cut.
Take her off the pedestal and judge her, not as an author you like, but as a woman.
Do some research. Click the links people have provided in this very thread. In the news story at the very beginning.
We can't know for sure if she was guilty. We almost never can. But, as i said, cases of a beloved figure being accused of sexual abuse are rarely this clear cut.
Take her off the pedestal and judge her, not as an author you like, but as a woman.
Everyone, every day, has to make judgments about the people around them. How trustworthy they are, whether their reputations are earned, whether they really did what friends/strangers/authorities say they did. Maybe these judgments are harsh, maybe they simply assist in making a decision that takes in dozens of factors, but they're not only common they are entirely necessary to everyday living (and are to a large extent, in fact, an underpinning of the jury system and police work and business and teaching and so on).Zira said:
The standards in play in a court of law are there for good reason, because the penalties are so steep, so while it's always good to weigh what's in front of you (or even better to do your own research) there is no legal or ethical requirement that a private citizen only decide whether they believe something if it's proved 100% or beyond a reasonable doubt.
It's understandable if people want to hold themselves to that standard regardless, but that's a personal standard and acting like anyone who believes differently is part of some vast irrational mob as a matter of course is foolish. Especially when you're perfectly happy to suggest that because the accused's daughter is a poet she obviously has the ulterior motive of selling the poetry she gave away for free on the internet, after having to be asked by a third party to make her statement public to begin with.
Considering the words that came out of MZB's own mouth I, personally, would tilt the benefit of the doubt far in favor of her accuser in this situation. And I certainly would need more reason than "she writes poetry" and "it's online" to think accusations of child abuse against someone who enabled child abuse were lies.