ThingInTheCoat said:
The.Bard said:
I just beat the game at 1am last night and I can FINALLY join in on this discussion!
For starters... snip-snip
Bard, I can admire the idea of the Indoctrination theory. I really can. Hell, I even believed Shepard was being subjected to some sort of fishy Reaper control the instant Harbinger's beam blind-sided him. But that idea quickly fell apart as the ending continued, and I can't see any reason why we shouldn't just accept the ending at face value.
The truth is, nearly every point the Indoctrination theory sets forth can be Occam's Razored down to a much simpler, more obvious explanation, or else simple coincidence, or else sloppy writing. I'm going to give a brief run-down of every one you mention.
1) The final radio transmission says NOBODY made it to the beam. Odd seeing how both Anderson & Shepard seemed to.
2) All game long, James CONSTANTLY talks about hearing a strange hum in the shuttle deck when shepard is around.
3) The last dream before the final mission features Shepard watching the little boy run into a copy of him/herself, all evil looking, and then they both ignite in flames. Given the repetitive nature of the dreams, I think it very fair to read into this. Just a bit.
4) How did TIM control both Anderson AND Shepard? And everytime he tried to exert control, the black lines fade in on Shepard's face, like control of him/her is strengthening (or weakening!?).
5) We are told Shepard's entire team is killed, but they appear in the Normandy Synthesis ending (haven't played the others out yet). Given the subtle details everywhere else, I sincerely doubt this was an oversight on Bioware's part.
1) The final radio transmission was being sent out while Shepard was lying, apparently dead, on the ground, so Command would probably just chalk him up alongside the other casualties and turn their attention elsewhere to regroup. There's also the possibility that the destruction of his armor made his life-signs flat-line on their end. Anderson following you onto the Citadel is a little trickier to explain, although I
guess you could dismiss it as him getting up from the rubble and following you after you got on, implausible as that may be. No idea on how to explain the "dark hallway" he claims to be in, since there are no other "dark hallways" between you and the control panel.
2) What do you mean about "all game long?" As far as I've noticed, he only mentioned it once. Keep in mind that Vega is standing in the docking bay of a space ship -- a docking bay, of course, which is beneath the giant thrumming engine core. Why is this a suspicious thing to say -- in idle dialogue before a battle, no less, when his nerves would be at their jumpiest. I'm pretty sure that is what the writers were attempting to convey: his nerves.
3) What made you think the copy of Shepard was evil-looking? My Shepard looked simply peaceful, even as the flames engulfed him. A more obvious explanation is that this was simply foreshadowing that Shepard would join in death those he couldn't protect -- a foreboding of potential failure to stop the Reapers. Bioware seems to have clearly been trying to humanize Shepard, and the dream sequences were one of their methods.
4) If the Illusive Man could control one man with Reaper tech, why is it odd that he control two? The black tendrils creeping in represented the "song of oily shadows" of Reaper control -- only in this case, it was Reaper control by way of the Illusive Man's tech.
5) No fucking idea. This is perhaps some of the more compelling evidence, I think, in support of the theory, but given the sloppy, rushed nature of the rest of the ending, it was probably just a case of reused art assets. They didn't want to make a separate cutscene to account for every squad configuration you took down to Earth with you, so they made one cutscene for each ending and you just happened to see one that had at least one of your squad members in it.
Now, fair's fair, my explanations may be simpler and, on their face, more plausible, but that's not to say they're certainly
true; that's an assumption in itself. There are, however, much more damning evidence that runs contrary to the Indoctrination theory:
For instance, if the theory is correct, then why, if Shepard has low EMS, does only the "Destroy" option present itself? If the Reapers are trying to Indoctrinate Shepard's mind, then presenting only one option -- their destruction -- with no resistance seems a bit . . . dumb. This is especially dumb if you've chosen to destroy the Geth during the game, since there is now
no reason to take that only option.
Furthermore, what is the point of the cutscenes
after the choice on the Crucible? Why, after you choose
anything, does Harbinger take the time to show you images of Reapers flying away or falling to the earth, Mass Relays exploding spectacularly, and the Normandy attempting to outrun the blastwave and crash landing on an alien world? What function does that serve? Building from that, why -- especially during the "Destroy" ending, where it appears
after the scene of Shepard waking in the rubble -- does an epilogue appear? An epilogue which features, no less, the same alien sky the Normandy crashed beneath and which depicts an old man and grandchild presumably generations descended from the original survivors. Their dialogue even gives us the impression that humanity has been unable to reach the stars since the Mass Relays exploded, which pretty well implies that the events we saw at the end happened as we saw them. Why -- and how -- does Harbinger impart that little nugget into Shepard's brain after he breaks free?
Lastly, the Mass Effect series -- hell, all of Bioware's games -- have
never been this oblique and psychological; they've always been purely straight-forward adventures -- adventures with mature and complex themes, to be certain, but always straight-forward in execution. So why now, in the last ten minutes, should I expect this change? Why should I suppose that Bioware has applied this level of sophistication and complexity, when
nothing prior to this has even approached this level of subtlety?
To compound all of this, none of the released documents, interviews, and statements give any real indication that they have any ace up their sleeve or that this is not their honest-to-God, intended ending. They've always been frank about how this is the way the wanted it to end, and if they were planning something, why did it take a massive petition, a wave of Amazon returns, and review-bombing, for them to make the simple, small concession of planning "game content initiatives" to "add more closure." Why wouldn't Casey Hudson or someone just come out in the face of this controversy and say, "Hey, we know you're confused about all this, but don't worry -- we've got it covered. You wouldn't
believe the shit we've got in store." It just doesn't add up.
I like the indoctrination theory. I really do. In fact, it shows a level of imagination in the fans that Bioware should be jealous of. But the fact is, there's just not as much going for it as people believe. It's mostly just boxing shadows on the wall, so you shouldn't really blame people for accepting what they see at face value. Personally, I find it bad writing on their part even if it
is indoctrination, since there's so much conflicting evidence either way.
And you know what? Fuck it. Believe in it if you want, even if it doesn't totally make sense. It's a better idea than what Bioware tossed us, at any rate, so substitute their reality for your own.
P.S. Goddamn, I didn't realize I wrote that much. Forgive the shit-brick of text.
P.P.S. During the writing of this, I watched the gameplay of the Crucible approach on Youtube to refresh my memory, and
goddamn if that shit just doesn't jive. Bioware's writing team
certainly couldn't have dropped the ball that much by accident, could they? It's just so fucking
weird to take that sequence of events at face value, even though I doubt the Indoctrination theory.
Dude, I was an English major. Not only did I read your entire shit-brick of text, but I salivated at reading it, because I'm dropping a shit-brick of text right back at you!!! XD To keep this SOMEWHAT readable, I've hidden much of the prior and current content in spoiler tags to keep it easier to swallow!
FINAL NOTE AS I COMPLETE THIS: I AM SO SO SORRY. THIS IS EVEN LONGER THAN THE LONG LONG THING I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DO SHAMUS' JOB FOR HIM. 8P
---------
ON REWRITES VS INTERPRETATIONS:
For starters, I want to differentiate between two concepts: "rewriting" and "interpretation." The difference between them is subtle, but notable. An interpretation is basically you soak in what you're given and come to a conclusion/reaction. Extensive thought may help you understand your interpretation, but it's not necessary. In no way are you actively changing the facts you are presented with - just interpreting them.
A mental rewrite, however, requires bending, ignoring, or changing facts in order to lead to a different conclusion. You are not following the path the storyteller created for you - you are hacking and exerting yourself to change it, and on subsequent views/readings, probably require notes and/or plugging your ears and lalalalalaing to keep up the facade.
For me, the ending of ME3 is an interpretation. The first time I beat it, indoctrination came into my mind. It all felt so very off, and not in a lazy, haphazard way. There are signs. Signs pointing to things. I tend to be an observant person, so I readily concede not everyone would pay attention or intrepret the signs like I did, but they are there, and they fit in place for me in such a way that my mind jumpted to indoctrination. What I'm saying is, this wasn't a conclusion I had to delude myself into reaching. It came to me readily, at which point I googled for more info and found the evidence threads with a chock ton of things I didn't see my first time through.
A mental rewrite to me would be PJ's Lord of the Rings films. I loooove Tolkien. I loved the first two LotR movies. I DESPISED Return of the King my first time through. To this day (much to my wife's dismay), the ONLY way I can watch the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy on film is by actively making shit up to fill in the MANY MANY holes that last movie has. Here's one example: Sam leaving Frodo. In the books, dude is a bro to the end. In the movie, he gets all sniffly when Frodo tells him to leave and he leaves. WTF?! He KNOWS Gollum will kill Frodo. WHY would he cry like a ninny and leave him to die? Jackson does NOTHING to tell us Sam had any other intent but to go home until he finds the llembas. So for me, I need to actively remind myself every time I see that movie that Sam ISN'T leaving. No, no, in MY REALITY,
his intention from the start is to find the bread, and then track Frodo down.
You see the difference? I have to actively delude myself in a rewrite. Indoctrination theory - to me, at least - is smooth as butter. It just freaking fits.
ON "BIOWARE PLANNED THIS ALL ALONG" -vs- "BIOWARE ABANDONED THE IDEA AND THREW IN A LAST MINUTE HACK JOB ENDING":
Things in favor of "Indoctrination Plan From the Start":
- The many bits of in-game evidence (interpreted as tips of the hat to the player)
- In February, they said in big loud words: "HOLD ON TO YOUR ME3 SAVES!!!!" (Mayyybe they were talking about ME4 pulling some data over, but I think they mean (FREE) DLC)
- The quote (sue me, I can't find the exact phrasing) they tweeted a few weeks back to the effect of "If only people knew what was coming with the DLC, they wouldn't be so angry."
- They've been working on the game for TWO years, on an engine that was already established. It is difficult - almost implausible - to believe they "ran out of time" on the ending and rushed it.
- They had a two month extension to "polish" the game. If this is true, it's hard to believe the ending could have been rushed, given the level of detail everywhere else.
Thing in favor of the hack job:
- The many bits of in-game evidence (interpreted as incompetence / gaping plotholes by Bioware)
- To pull off the indoctrination plan, Bioware would have to intentionally sacrifice money and fan favor from angry people for the sake of keeping the 'real ending' quiet, which probably wouldn't float past EA.
- They had a two month extension to "polish" the game, but in reality were throwing shit together (I really don't believe this, but it's possible)
To your points in response to my points:
1)
I agree, the radio transmission about nobody making it to the beams COULD have been in reference to them thinking you're dead, but coupled with everything else, I still think it is evidence that something is off. Especially when time slows down. The game repeatedly uses time slowing down during dream states.
2)
James & the hum: I should point out that I am a borderline OCD gameplayer. My Mass Effect game completions hover on 60-70 hrs apiece. ME3 took me 71hrs 08minutes to beat. This comes into play specifically in regards to Vega. When I beat a mission, I talk to everyone on the Normandy. Then I go through every part of the citadel. Then I scan everything I can. Then I beat a mission and repeat the Normandy/Citadel/Scan steps.
Why is this important? Because if you talk to James once after EVERY mission, he will mention the hum at LEAST 10 times. Granted, the actual line is only one or two pieces of recorded audio repeated, but the normal James line for exhausting dialogue is "Hey." or "Commander."
Why would they have him every so often mention the strange hum? ESPECIALLY when the codex entry for indoctrination starts off with hearing a hum??
Taking this one step further, Kotaku reported a week or two ago that if you pause the game in the War Room, you can hear the "Vigil" song being played by the machinery. (http://kotaku.com/5895616/mass-effect-3s-musical-secret)
Shuffling our feet forward yet AGAIN, if you pause the game in the Shuttle Bay, the machinery plays something else... one of the geth combat songs from the first game. It's a synthy thing, but it's so there! I'll have to break out the soundtrack to grab its name.
This level of detail being implemented across the board is
so strange when you consider the ending-as-is contains more holes than the back of Javik's head-piece-thing. Are we to believe that they put ALLLL of this effort into ALLL these tiny details, and then simply forgot or didn't care that Shepard shoots Anderson but Shepard is the one bleeding, or that they killled Ashley and then forgot about that when putting her on the Normandy? That is more ludicrous to me than believing the ending is indoctrination.
3)
I am afraid to load that save to check the last dream, as I'm afraid it will overwrite the "Restart Citadel" mission, but my Shepard was SOOOO evil looking in that dream. Maybe it's a Paragon / Renegade thing (I was a devout Paragon), but he was giving me the full on BroShep rapeface. There was nothing pleasant about it. Ok, I found it on youtube, but it's not exactly what I was hoping for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m_LOEeKdak
At 19 seconds, as Shep looks up, he has a slightly evil smirk, but I need to load up my save, because I swear the final look as he's burning was a wide full on evil grin. I openly admit it is
possible I'm misremembering that final look, but I distinctly remember saying out loud "oooooooookayyyy, that wasn't
tooo creepy." as it happened. I will let you know what I find after reloading it tonight. I'll take a picture if my memory is correct.
4)
TIM controlling Shep/Anderson with Reaper tech by itself isn't fishy. What IS fishy is that TIM is indoctrinated. If HE can control Shep/Anderson, then it would stand to reason that Shep/Anderson must be indoctrinate-able. In what world would the Reapers not be all over that like bears on honey? In fact, I was playing with a concept that TIM is actually the good guy, fighting to break Shepard out of Indoctrination since the start of ME2, but that might be stretching too far, and will require an extensive note-taking replay of ME2/3. If I ever do this, I will let you know my findings.
5)
The Crew. So I reloaded and did the Destruction ending last night, and I paid more attention to things. In addition to the Crew showing up on the Normandy, why is the Normandy fleeing the system to begin with? And why does Joker look like he just saw a ghost? These are massive holes, and the only way I can chalk it up to Bioware incompetence is to go back to the development looking like this:
- Spend two years designing ME3. Create exceptional "Indoctrination Ending" (Alternatively, ignore ending entirely until game is 99.9% finished - which again, seems highly unlikely given the polish everywhere else)
- Get extension from holidays to March. Pull out and destroy indoctrination ending. Create new, rushed ending that coincidentally fits lock-and-key into original indoctrination ending. (This seems as oddly paradoxical as the "we don't want you to die by synthetics, so we're sending in synthetics to kill you so that synthetics don't kill you!" premise)
I just can't wrap my head around any world in which the ending was rushed. The game is so well crafted, from start to finish. Whether we like every second of every hour or not, we can't deny time and energy were put into this game's construction. I absolutely refuse to believe they just stopped caring in the 11th hour and threw this together intending it to go
as is. It takes more suspension of disbelief for me to swallow
THAT then it does for me to accept the whole thing is Reaper indoctrination and the "real" finale is forthcoming (I hope).
AND... when you take the Destruction path, Shepard awakens in the rubble of London! I just don't see how the Citadel could have exploded with him on it and his armorless body somehow crashes back to earth in London - still moving. It makes so much more sense to me that the "awakening" is moments after being hit by Harbinger's insta-indoctrination beam and Shepard in fact never left Earth.
ON HAVING LOW EMS / ONLY DESTROY OPTION:
why, if Shepard has low EMS, does only the "Destroy" option present itself? If the Reapers are trying to Indoctrinate Shepard's mind, then presenting only one option -- their destruction -- with no resistance seems a bit . . . dumb. This is especially dumb if you've chosen to destroy the Geth during the game, since there is now no reason to take that only option.
That's a very good point. A low EMS only gives you Destroy as an option? I didn't know that. Hmmm. OK, let's think here. What would a low EMS score represent? A small threat, effectively, right? The Reapers "Don't Fear the Shepard" (haha!) in this case, as he's failed to bring a real threat to them. So perhaps - if this is indoctrination - they are testing his loyalty. If the bit about "we only destroy high level organics" is true (Javik knows of Asari/Salarians/Humans, so I'm guessing this is true and the low level organics were spared in the last culling), then perhaps a low EMS score means you are so unworthy they don't even care enough to find out if you would really destroy them or not. I'll have to think about this one more. That's not the tightest theory, by any means, but a higher EMS score represents a higher threat, so maybe they only get scared if you bring a high EMS, where they go all: "OOh, you got moxie, kid! Maybe we'll keep you around for your dna! Don't you wanna give up on this "kill us plan" and just give in to indoctrina... er, no,
Synthesis. Yea, yea, definitely not indoctrination. *ahem* Forget I ever said that word."
ON POST CRUCIBLE CUTSCENES:
Furthermore, what is the point of the cutscenes after the choice on the Crucible? Why, after you choose anything, does Harbinger take the time to show you images of Reapers flying away or falling to the earth, Mass Relays exploding spectacularly, and the Normandy attempting to outrun the blastwave and crash landing on an alien world? What function does that serve? Building from that, why -- especially during the "Destroy" ending, where it appears after the scene of Shepard waking in the rubble -- does an epilogue appear? An epilogue which features, no less, the same alien sky the Normandy crashed beneath and which depicts an old man and grandchild presumably generations descended from the original survivors. Their dialogue even gives us the impression that humanity has been unable to reach the stars since the Mass Relays exploded, which pretty well implies that the events we saw at the end happened as we saw them. Why -- and how -- does Harbinger impart that little nugget into Shepard's brain after he breaks free?
You're making me work for this!
I like it!
For starters, I was bummed that the credits spoiled Buzz Aldrin for me. I was like "BUZZ ALDRIN WAS IN THIS GAME?!?! WHERE WAS THAT?!" and then they showed him to me minutes later. Jerks.
I haven't entirely wrapped my head around the post-Crucible cutscenes. Here are some possibilities I've narrowed it down to:
A)
Indoctrination propaganda. Why? In the case of Synthesis or Control, it's a way to placate Shepard and KEEP him indoctrinated. "Look, Shepard,
YOUR FRIENDS survived, and they
ARE HAPPY with your choice of Control/Synthesis! GOOD BOY!" In the case of Destroy, they might want to give you a false sense of victory, but I feel that Destroy is actually Shepard breaking free of the indoc (thus going back to him in London).
(Do they just show the squad mate you brought with you exiting Normandy, or is it always your love interest? I brought Ashley on the final mission, and she is also my love interest, so I honestly don't know if they differentiate between the two.)
B)
Shepard hallucinating. We've seen indoctrinated people frequently, and the thing they all exhibit is a propensity to freak the fudge out when confronted with things that indicate their choice to help the Reapers is bad. Saren, TIM, and Dr. Amanda Kenson ALL wig out when Shepard throws the "Dude, you are so totally screwing over all organic life right now" in their faces. Indoctri-Shep would be completely incapable of coming to terms with the fact that he just killed all his friends and every living being in the universe. He would very easily write it off: "No, no, no they
totallysurvived! The woman I love survived, my shipmates surived! Everyone survived! Praise be the Reapers!"
C)
They are messing with time on us. Normandy really DOES crash and land on that planet, but they only show (for me at least) Joker/Edi/Ashley exiting it, or Joker/Ashley/Javik. The soon-to-come "real ending" would be a flashback to what happens in between Shepard's decision and the Normandy's fate. (I won't call this one likely, per se, but a large gap of time would explain how the squadmates got to the ship and bugged the hell out.) Imagine if we find out that Destroy-Shep is on the Normandy with them, too... you just don't know it yet!
As far as the Stargazer and his son, this is sooooo open to interpretation. Maybe it happened years later. Maybe it happened centuries later. Maybe it's cycles. Maybe they just wanted a philosophic wrap-up to fuck with us. I'm not sure, but I didn't take it as a direct tie-in, as much as a spiritual one. Sort of like... I can't even think of a comparable ending at the moment. It felt more like an epilogue to the fans, more than the story. Especially - holy shit, this just hit me - the kid says "Tell me another story about the Shepard!" and Buzz replies with "Well, ok,
ONE MORE!" Shit, I didn't even think about that before. If WE are the kid and Bioware is Buzz Aldrin, then there is
ONE MORE story coming! ... I'm actually shocked I didn't realize this earlier. Don't you see? They totally said
One. More. Story. But we haven't gotten it yet! That was the message! That is the point of that cinematic! That is the proof! AHAHAHAHAH! I AM SO AWESOME! WOOOOO!!!
ON BIOWARE'S NON-USE OF THIS IN OTHER GAMES:
Lastly, the Mass Effect series -- hell, all of Bioware's games -- have
never been this oblique and psychological; they've always been purely straight-forward adventures -- adventures with mature and complex themes, to be certain, but always straight-forward in execution. So why now, in the last ten minutes, should I expect this change? Why should I suppose that Bioware has applied this level of sophistication and complexity, when
nothing prior to this has even approached this level of subtlety?
It all depends how deeply you want to look. I would argue that they have used it more-than-sporadically in several of their games, (would need time/research to pull up legit examples) but it usually is under the surface and easily ignored if you so choose. ME2 used subtle Biblical references in several of Legion's quests (heck, even his name is a Bible reference). They use subtle music & audio cues (as mentioned above) to psychologically impact us... I don't see it being THAT out of character for them, especially considering how easy it is to jump from "We should indoctrinate Shepard." ---> "No... we should indoctrinate the PLAYER!"
IN CLOSING:
I like the indoctrination theory. I really do. In fact, it shows a level of imagination in the fans that Bioware should be jealous of. But the fact is, there's just not as much going for it as people believe. It's mostly just boxing shadows on the wall, so you shouldn't really blame people for accepting what they see at face value. Personally, I find it bad writing on their part even if it is indoctrination, since there's so much conflicting evidence either way.
Well, I 100% respect the people who think the ending is legit and hate it. There is no
definitive all-powerful evidence anywhere, so ultimately, this is all up for grabs. My only gripe with people who hate the ending are those who refuse to concede there is
ANY room for interpretation, when there clearly is.
Do me a favor. Read the codex description for indoctrination (boldiness by moi!), then watch the entire ending again. I just really at the end of the day can't fathom this being an accident:
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
I'm not going to pretend any of this is conclusive evidence, but it's more than an imaginative fan base rewriting the ending for Bioware. Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide what's happening. I can happily choose indoctrination without feeling like I'm lying to myself. And unlike Return of the King, which pains me because I
DO have to lie to myself, this is an easy ending for me to accept in the slim chance Bioware doesn't release ANY clarifying endgame content. I just wish more people were open to at least talking about it. You clearly are, and for that, you Thing in the Coat, I applaud you.
Thank you again for engaging me in conversation on this. I have been
DYING to discuss the ending with someone, and most of my friends at this point haven't beaten the game yet, or, like my brother-in-law, just want to spout on about how much the ending is a PoS, no room for any other interpretation. You have really made my day! XD