Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!

[SajuukKhar]

snip

-Being able to direct the evolution of every species for millions of years is so close to being true control the difference exists only in semantics.

-Dependance on the Mass Relay leads to adaptation of its technology as our own, adaptation of MR technology leads to all races developing along the relatively same technological and societal paths, controlling a species technology and society results in controlling its evolution. The Reapers used controlled evolution that dependance on MR based technology causes to kill organics. Saying the Reapers killed organics through controlled evolution and saying that they did it via dependance on the MR is saying the same thing. The former is caused by the latter and thus saying either the former or the latter is correct except saying the latter is just going one more step outwards, and totally unnecessary.

-It is based on the observations and experiences the makers of the Catalyst and The Reapers had, it is truth to them, truth to The Reapers, but may not be the truth to us, but the fact it is not truth to us does not make it not truth.

-The Reapers methods and purpose were based off of the information they had at the time of their original creation, which is to say the limits of their race, which is to say the belief that synthetics would end up destroying all organic life based on said races experience. That Shepard was able to get to The Catalyst shows that the information they been working on for millions of years, which was valid at the time of said creation, was no longer valid.

-See above

-As stated above his information was only valid until the point Shepard got to him, the Catalyst is a machine built with the limited knowledge of his creators. The fact that Shepard was able to get to him shows the information is no longer valid, all he can tell you is what he knows, and all he has known is what he was told when he was made, which as stated before is no longer valid.

Why people are treating his word like the literal infallible word of god, when it is merely the word of a machine and subject to limitations of knowledge is beyond me. It seems like a convent thing to ignore to say "it doesn't make sense".

-Incorrect the MRs as they were limited technological and societal growth by causing a dependance on their technology and things based off of their technology and causing stagnation due to a unwillingness to learn about said things out of a fear they might lose them.
--Hence why races from across the galaxy managed to make almost the exact same technology
--Hence why the study of the relays, The Citadel, and the Keepers was outright banned or extremely taboo, with punishments of death or imprisonment.
--Hence why the Asari, and other races, would laugh at anyone who suggested they build relays of their own

 

[Inkidu]

I'm as pissed as everyone here, but I don't think Bioware should release a new ending. I have reasons.

A.) You don't ask authors to write new endings when their book's blows. So why ask video game developers.
B.) Bioware is lauded for its writing. So, whoever came up with that should have the gall to stand behind his decision.
C.) Mostly though, I want it to be a black mark on their company forever. I don't want them to be able to fix it and say, "Lol, JK!". No, I want Bioware to look back on this for what it was. Lazy writing. Lazy writing with a poorly implemented way of choosing your ending. When I went into it all I saw was the central beam.

ME1: Dialogue choice.
ME2: Dialogue choice.
ME3: Fucking guess, asshole!

 

[Kahunaburger]

-Dependance on the Mass Relay leads to adaptation of its technology as our own, adaptation of MR technology leads to all races developing along the relatively same technological and societal paths, controlling a species technology and society results in controlling its evolution. The Reapers used controlled evolution that dependance on MR based technology causes to kill organics. Saying the Reapers killed organics through controlled evolution and saying that they did it via dependance on the MR is saying the same thing. The former is caused by the latter and thus saying either the former or the latter is correct except saying the latter is just going one more step outwards, and totally unnecessary.

So, if humans have discovered the mass relays in 1950, would they have failed to invent the three-blade razor with aloe strip?

-It is based on the observations and experiences the makers of the Catalyst and The Reapers had, it is truth to them, truth to The Reapers, but may not be the truth to us. but the fact it is not truth to us does not make it not truth.

 

[SajuukKhar]

So, if humans have discovered the mass relays in 1950, would they have failed to invent the three-blade razor with aloe strip?

Yes they most likely would have

There is a difference between
1. Technological stagnation once a species hits a certain point
2. Developing more technology because we haven't hit the stagnation point set out yet.

You are either purposefully ignore the difference to cause an argument, and based on your posts in other thread this seems to be the likely case, or you are simply unable either by willingness or a real inability, to understand the difference between the two.

Nice troll picture.

Anyways this conversation is based on the logic set forth in the ME universe, the fact that it isn't truth to us in the real world is irrelevant because the ME universe isn't our universe and isn't subject to the same truth

As you are well aware but seemingly ignoring in a very vain and transparent attempt to troll.

 

[Kahunaburger]

So, if humans have discovered the mass relays in 1950, would they have failed to invent the three-blade razor with aloe strip?

Yes they most likely would have

Well, that would explain the cuts on Shepard's face.

There is a difference between
1. Technological stagnation once a species hits a certain point
2. Developing more technology because we haven't hit the stagnation point set out yet.

You are either purposefully ignore the difference to cause an argument, and based on your posts in other thread this seems to be the likely case, or you are simply unable either by willingness or a real inability, to understand the difference between the two.

So wait, is the three-bade razor with aloe strip something that wouldn't exist in the Mass Effect universe if humans had discovered the relays in 1950, or is it something that teh reepars intended any species with body hair to discover? Because your argument becomes a little confused here.

this conversation is based on the logic set forth in the ME universe, the fact that it isn't truth to us in the real world is irrelevant because the ME universe isn't our universe and isn't subject to the same truth

As you are well aware but seemingly ignoring in a very vain and transparent attempt to troll.

So, your argument is now that the writers of Mass Effect intended for people in their universe not to act like real people? Do elaborate on this theory.

 

[SajuukKhar]

So wait, is the three-bade razor with aloe strip something that wouldn't exist in the Mass Effect universe if humans had discovered the relays in 1950, or is it something that teh reepars intended any species with body hair to discover? Because your argument becomes a little confused here.

Neither, because neither was implied or stated in the above options.

I suggest you read what other type before you comment on them next time, saves me the hassle and you the embarrassment

Those fall within the "technology developed because we haven't hit the set stagnation point yet" category.

But if you had actually read what I typed or understood what that phrase means you would know that mean it is just something we made because it happened to be between where we were then and the limit The Reapers put on our technological growth. It fell below the boundary of, "they shouldn't get past this point".

And just to point out so you don't make another terrible assumption or implication out of something that was never stated, again, that does not mean the Reapers planned for us to make those razors.

So, your argument is now that the writers of Mass Effect intended for people in their universe not to act like real people? Do elaborate on this theory.

Not at all, once again I fail to see how you can warp things other say so drastically as to come out with something so wildly different then the obvious meaning.

All I said was that the ME universe is not our universe and thus doesn't not hold the same "rules" as our universe, I never stated that the character of the ME universe don't act like real people or that Bioware intended it, again you make assumptions out of thin air.

The characters act on what limited knowledge they know, which in this case Shepard knows that The Geth fought a war with their creators, and that even with the new-found peace it is possible for the to start another war if certain events occur.

The Catalysts "synthetics destroy all organics" future is exceedingly possible even if the Geth and Quarrians are united, and you would have to be stupid to not see that.

Based on experiences in his cycle and the knowlage the Catalyst has Shepard's actions are not that unreasonable.

 

[Autumnflame]

I think Bioware is just trolling us.
Letting us rage then will come out with the most amazing true endings possible and watch us forgive them.
as the endings we wanted are brought to life

 

[SajuukKhar]

I think Bioware is just trolling us.
Letting us rage then will come out with the most amazing true endings possible and watch us forgive them.
as the endings we wanted are brought to life

The endings people wanted "aka riding off into the sunset with your space-waifu while Shepard helps galactic civilization rebuild", don't fit within the themes of the game or resolve major plot points from the first game.

 

[Kahunaburger]

So wait, is the three-bade razor with aloe strip something that wouldn't exist in the Mass Effect universe if humans had discovered the relays in 1950, or is it something that teh reepars intended any species with body hair to discover? Because your argument becomes a little confused here.

Neither, because neither was implied or stated in the above options.

Those fall within the "technology developed because we haven't hit the set stagnation point yet" category.

But if you had actually read what I typed or understood what that phrase means you would know that mean it is just something we made because it happened to be between where we were then and the limit The Reapers put on our technological growth. It fell below the boundary of, "they shouldn't get past this point".

And just to point out so you don't make another terrible assumption or implication out of something that was never stated again, that does not mean the Reapers planned for us to make those razors.

So if the reapers didn't plan for our hypothetical humans to develop the three-blade shaving razor with aloe strip, how can we say that the technology exists "before" the intended stagnation point? It sounds to me like it's a path of technological development that is continuing independent of the intended stagnation point. "Before" implies it's part of teh reepars' master plan.

So, your argument is now that the writers of Mass Effect intended for people in their universe not to act like real people? Do elaborate on this theory.

Not at all, once again I fail to see how you can warp things other say so drastically as to come out with something so wildly different then the obvious meaning.

All I said was that the ME universe is not our universe and thus doesn't not hold the same "rules" as our universe, I never stated that the character of the ME universe don't act like real people or that Bioware intended it, again you make assumptions out of thin air.

The characters act on what limited knowledge they know, which in this case Shepard knows that The Geth fought a war with their creators, and that even with the new-found peace it is possible for the to start another war if certain events occur.

The Catalysts "synthetics destroy all organics" future is exceedingly possible even if the Geth and Quarrians are united, and you would have to be stupid to not see that.

Based on experiences in his cycle and the knowlage the Catalyst has Shepard's actions are not that unreasonable.

Oh, so you just mistook this conversation with a different one for some reason. Everyone else on this thread was having a discussion about whether the people in the Mass Effect universe were acting like real people. Carry on.

Also, outbursts like this one:

I suggest you read what other type before you comment on them next time, saves me the hassle and you the embarrassment

don't really help your argument. They are pretty entertaining, though.

 

[Autumnflame]

The base concepts of the endings i had no problem with.
If Shepard had to die to secure victory then so be it.

"how" they did it is what the major problem is. and the lack of a sum up epilogue to say how the races fared.
did the krogan work out their aggression and become a more stable people.
did the quarian geth alliance work out.
what your squadmates did after you died.
humanities next steps.

that is what i want in an ending. closure. not waiting till mass effect 4 and be told what happened in the years between

 

[SajuukKhar]

So if the reapers didn't plan for our hypothetical humans to develop the three-blade shaving razor with aloe strip, how can we say that the technology exists "before" the intended stagnation point? It sounds to me like it's a path of technological development that is continuing independent of the intended stagnation point. "Before" implies it's part of teh reepars' master plan.

The Reaper's planned for the possibility of any technology made before the discovery of the Mass relays at which point they placed a limit that prevents races from going past The Mass Relays. they did not plan for specific races to make specific things at a specific time, only that what they made would be below them.

Saying that they made it before doesn't imply anything, I really don't see how you could make such a connection when it was never hinted at, at all.

 

[theonecookie]

So wait, is the three-bade razor with aloe strip something that wouldn't exist in the Mass Effect universe if humans had discovered the relays in 1950, or is it something that teh reepars intended any species with body hair to discover? Because your argument becomes a little confused here.

Neither, because neither was implied or stated in the above options.

I suggest you read what other type before you comment on them next time, saves me the hassle and you the embarrassment

Those fall within the "technology developed because we haven't hit the set stagnation point yet" category.

But if you had actually read what I typed or understood what that phrase means you would know that mean it is just something we made because it happened to be between where we were then and the limit The Reapers put on our technological growth. It fell below the boundary of, "they shouldn't get past this point".

And just to point out so you don't make another terrible assumption or implication out of something that was never stated, again, that does not mean the Reapers planned for us to make those razors.

So, your argument is now that the writers of Mass Effect intended for people in their universe not to act like real people? Do elaborate on this theory.

Not at all, once again I fail to see how you can warp things other say so drastically as to come out with something so wildly different then the obvious meaning.

All I said was that the ME universe is not our universe and thus doesn't not hold the same "rules" as our universe, I never stated that the character of the ME universe don't act like real people or that Bioware intended it, again you make assumptions out of thin air.

The characters act on what limited knowledge they know, which in this case Shepard knows that The Geth fought a war with their creators, and that even with the new-found peace it is possible for the to start another war if certain events occur.

The Catalysts "synthetics destroy all organics" future is exceedingly possible even if the Geth and Quarrians are united, and you would have to be stupid to not see that.

Based on experiences in his cycle and the knowlage the Catalyst has Shepard's actions are not that unreasonable.

Right I've been nice but now I'm going to come right out and say it

your are an idiot

right can we understand this ....... probably not

in the end the weather or not the relays are destroyed is meaningless if there destroyed there destroyed if there not there not

But your understanding of how technology progresses is fundamentally flawed technology is the solution to problems for tech to stagnate you have to run out of problems how we acquired the tech in the first place is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

 

[SajuukKhar]

Right I've been nice but now I'm going to come right out and say it

your are an idiot

right can we understand this ....... probably not

in the end the weather or not the relays are destroyed is meaningless if there destroyed there destroyed if there not there not

But your understanding of how technology progresses is fundamentally flawed technology is the solution to problems for tech to stagnate you have to run out of problems how we acquired the tech in the first place is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

I was making my arguments based off of how technology works in the ME unvierse not the real world, I fully understand it is diffrent IRL, and I never implied that is how it works IRL
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I've been nice but now I'm going to come right out and say it

your are an idiot

You seem to lack the ability to tell the difference between a games universe and the real one and are getting mad that the fake one doesn't follow the rules of the real one.

In the end the destruction of the relays DOES have meaning in the ME universe because the DEVS have strongly hinted in since the first game that it would.

The fact it might have worked out different in our universe is irrelevant to the series fictional one.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

It didn't spark debate. It sparked furious outbursts because the ending made no sense at all. It is logically fallacious, it is poorly written. It is a cowardly cop-out that makes no sense for the universe of Mass Effect if you payed any fuckin' attention to the previous 2 games.

Except I just explained how it did make sense.

Ill do it in shorthand so you understand it this time
-Reapers build relays to control evolution
-Reapers use controlled evolution to kill organics
-Reapers kill organics because they, by nature, end up building machines that kill ALL organics
-Shepard ends up at Reaper control
-Reaper control says "well you got here the cycle is broken forever"
-Reaper control also says "now that someone other then me is here other options are available"
-Shepard chooses option
-Option breaks the cycle
-Option ALSO breaks Mass relays freeing civilization from the technological limits placed on them because said limits are no longer needed.

You're missing the fuckin' point again. The ending doesn't make sense in the Mass Effect narrative. A game that lets you make choices that matter is suddenly taking away those choices.
And by the way, Reaper tech isn't an inherently bad thing. It used to be because it allowed Reapers to harvest organic life more easily and to control the path of evolution.

THAT EVOLUTION ALREADY HAPPENED! Destroying mass relays didn't make any positive difference. On the contrary. It reduced all speceis capable of space travel to pre-space travel life style. How the fuck is that a good thing? They already evolved the way Reapers wanted. Destroying mass relays didn't change anything about that. Organics weren't limited by their technology, they were limited in time because Reapers would eventually come to harvest them. With the Reapers gone they can continue to evolve on their own, without fear of being harvested. They can study mass relays if they want to. They can learn how to make new ones.

And by the way, if the ending really makes sense, then why was The Normandy in Mass Relay space and not somewhere near Earth? Also, why wasn't there an option to persuade the Catalyst to call off Reapers or to destroy them? A game that prides itself on providing you with choices, it really did a terrible job providing you with the most important ones in the end. How does that make any sense?

 

[MomoElektra]

I was making my arguments based off of how technology works in the ME unvierse not the real world
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No, you don't. You are making stuff up that hasn't been shown or can be derived from ME, and you are actively ignoring what it has shown.

The ME relays have been established to influence the species of the galaxies, yes. But they don't influence their biological or technological evolution. They act as a alarm clock (citadel) to show when it's time to harvest again and as bait to keep those species in a predestined space (so the Reapers can find them more easily).

If the Reapers are gone the ME relays are no threat anymore. And it's stupid to say they are dangerous because they were not invented by the species of the game, just as it would be stupid to say "it's dangerous to drive a car when you haven't invented the wheel yourself first".

Seriously, stop making stuff up that only makes sense in your head. Or don't, as mentioned, it is mildly entertaining.

_________________


Considering the ending, I have the same problems most do. The solution was stupid, and I didn't like its implementation. The ending was, all other mistakes aside, simply too short.

 

[SajuukKhar]

You're missing the fuckin' point again. The ending doesn't make sense in the Mass Effect narrative. A game that lets you make choices that matter is suddenly taking away those choices.
And by the way, Reaper tech isn't an inherently bad thing. It used to be because it allowed Reapers to harvest organic life more easily and to control the path of evolution.

THAT EVOLUTION ALREADY HAPPENED! Destroying mass relays didn't make any positive difference. On the contrary. It reduced all speceis capable of space travel to pre-space travel life style. How the fuck is that a good thing? They already evolved the way Reapers wanted. Destroying mass relays didn't change anything about that. Organics weren't limited by their technology, they were limited in time because Reapers would eventually come to harvest them. With the Reapers gone they can continue to evolve on their own, without fear of being harvested. They can study mass relays if they want to. They can learn how to make new ones.

And by the way, if the ending really makes sense, then why was The Normandy in Mass Relay space and not somewhere near Earth? Also, why wasn't there an option to persuade the Catalyst to call off Reapers or to destroy them? A game that prides itself on providing you with choices, it really did a terrible job providing you with the most important ones in the end. How does that make any sense?

The game choice system was never supposed to give you all those post ending crap depending on what you did.

It was always about having your choices from the first two games play out during the events of the 3rd, anything else is something people made up along wit the wild delusions of riding off into the sunset with their space-waifus.
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Except that evolution HASN'T happened yet, the galactic civilzations are still DECADES possibly CENTURIES away from understanding the Mass Relays and in-game evidence shows THEY ARE TOTALLY UNWILLING TO TRY TO LEARN.

Destroying the Mass relays forces the species of the galaxy to do what they had been refusing to all this time.. learn how to build relays for themselves.
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They said near the ending the Normandy was going to rejoin and help the sword team aka the space team. that is why he was in space.

 

[Kahunaburger]

So if the reapers didn't plan for our hypothetical humans to develop the three-blade shaving razor with aloe strip, how can we say that the technology exists "before" the intended stagnation point? It sounds to me like it's a path of technological development that is continuing independent of the intended stagnation point. "Before" implies it's part of teh reepars' master plan.

The Reaper's planned for the possibility of any technology made before the discovery of the Mass relays at which point they placed a limit that prevents races from going past The Mass Relays. they did not plan for specific races to make specific things at a specific time, only that what they made would be below them.

Saying that they made it before doesn't imply anything, I really don't see how you could make such a connection when it was never hinted at, at all.

How does this system determine what technology is "past" the mass relays? And how, exactly, would the discovery of mass relays prevent technology that is more advanced than mass relays such as, say, a three-bladed space razor with quantum strip*?

*a super-advanced device that uses dimensional folding to prevent shaving cuts and razor burn!

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

The game choice system was never supposed to give you all those post ending crap depending on what you did.

It was always about having your choices from the first two games play out during the events of the 3rd, anything else is something people made up along wit the wild delusions of riding off into the sunset with their space-waifus.

That's your opinion. One that very few in the world share. An RPG such as Mass Effect that's been hinting you with a happy ending all the way through should have had such an ending. Regardless of your wrong opinion.

Except that evolution HASN'T happened yet, the galactic civilzations are still DECADES possibly CENTURIES away from understanding the Mass Relays and in-game evidence shows THEY ARE TOTALLY UNWILLING TO TRY TO LEARN.

That's all in your head, you know? You say that evolution hasn't happened because that's what you want to believe. You say that galactic civilizations are very far away from understanding mass relays because that's what you want to believe.
Throwing them in pre-space era isn't gonna solve any of that. It's just gonna make it more difficult because they can't fuckin' study mass relays when they're destroyed. And how the fuck do you know if they showed any interest in understanding the technology of mass relays? Just because there's nothing about it in the game doesn't mean someone isn't studying them. But you made quite a nice story in your head I'll give you that.

Destroying the Mass relays forces the species of the galaxy to do what they had been refusing to all this time.. learn how to build relays for themselves.

Again, just your opinion. You can't know if they wouldn't try to build their own. And even if they wouldn't, how is that worse than being thrown in pre-space flight age? Sometimes progress is forced upon people. One nation builds something, and forces others to use it. They can evolve together even after being forced into using technology that isn't their own. Read a fuckin' history book if you don't believe me. You didn't have to learn how to build your own PC/console in order to use it, did you?

 

[Blachman201_v1legacy]

It was always about having your choices from the first two games play out during the events of the 3rd, anything else is something people made up along wit the wild delusions of riding off into the sunset with their space-waifus.

That tired old straw man again? Not all the people who are speaking out against the ending have something against Shepard sacrificing his life to save the galaxy, and not everybody have romanced somebody in their game. What most people want is just something to ensure them that their choices weren't invalidated by the ending.

They said near the ending the Normandy was going to rejoin and help the sword team aka the space team. that is why he was in space.

So why he is around Pluto? Pretty sure that was no combat going on out there, and Joker isn't a coward, so he wouldn't flee in the middle of everything.

 

[MomoElektra]

And how the fuck do you know if they showed any interest in understanding the technology of mass relays? Just because there's nothing about it in the game doesn't mean someone isn't studying them.

If it ain't in the games, it ain't happened or something like that. And it has been shown. The whole galaxy uses and studies mass effect and Reaper technology. Remember all those pesky little side missions and DLCs with Cerberus and other scientists doing gruesome experiments?