Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
How the fuck does a series that constantly tells you giant machines have controlled all of civilizations evolution aand are coming to kill and and it is only through the joining of all the races that we have even the slimmest of chances of survives hinting at a happy end?

Hell bioware themselves said ME 2 is darker then ME1 and that ME3 would be darker then ME2.

It was a constant downward spiral of darkness.
Again, that does not make sense. The games never said that the Reapers controlled evolution. You are making that up.
And it's not through the effort of all races that there is a chance of survival. It should be so, but it isn't.

And no one has anything against the games being dark, some are just bothered by it being stupid.

Edit:

beyond that Matriarch Aethyta in Me2 even tells you that the asari are unwilling to make relays, also the Cerberus daily news and thighs stated in ME1 BOT confirmed almost all reach on the mass relays, the keepers, and the citadel is banned.
Bans can be lifted. You are treating them as if they were natural laws. And, as I mentioned, research happens.
_____________________________
This debate reminds me so much of the one when Lost ended. Same kinds of arguments for it, really.

They made the same mistake, only they made an even bigger one - that's the only saving grace of ME's 10-minute-solution. At least it's short.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
MomoElektra said:
Play ME1 again, do it, no really, do it, becuase I think your dreams of space waifus have clouded your memory.

Get to the part on Virmire, specifically the part were Sovereign talks to you

He specifically states
"WE IMPOSE ORDER ON THE CHAOS THAT IS EVOLUTION"
and in a less direct quote he states
"WE BUILT THE MASS RELAYS AND THE CITADEL AND WE ENSURED THAT THROUGH YOUR DEPENDANCE YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THEIR SECRETS"

Actuality LISTEN to the dialog next time mmmk?
 
Mar 9, 2012
250
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
How the fuck does a series that constantly tells you giant machines have controlled all of civilizations evolution aand are coming to kill and and it is only through the joining of all the races that we have even the slimmest of chances of survives hinting at a happy end?
Vigil tells you that the Reapers relies on surprise and subterfuge in their attacks. In fact their first step during a cycle is to disable the Mass Relays and isolate the civilizations into small cut-off colonies, which they then pick off one by one. This strongly indicates that they consider a counter-attack by a united galaxy a big enough threat against them to take repercussions against it.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
MomoElektra said:
Play ME1 again, do it, no really, do it, becuase I think your dreams of space waifus have clouded your memory.
Yeah, right.

Get to the part on Virmire, specifically the part were Sovereign talks to you

He specifically states
"WE IMPOSE ORDER ON THE CHAOS THAT IS EVOLUTION"
and in a less direct quote he states
"WE BUILT THE MASS RELAYS AND THE CITADEL AND WE ENSURED THAT THROUGH YOUR DEPENDANCE YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THEIR SECRETS"

Actuality LISTEN to the dialog next time mmmk?
I remember that dialog well. Only I also understood it.

He means evolution=organic life. Synthetic life like them does not evolve, it harvests. They want to impose order on organic life by assimilating it. They do not want to meddle with evolution. Why would they? How do you even get that impression?

The dependance on the relays here is the one I mentioned before. It will make sure most advanced species, if not all, will stay close to the relays and as such be easier to locate and harvest (because they also can't run away). Nothing more.
 

Kahunaburger

New member
May 6, 2011
4,141
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
Get to the part on Virmire, specifically the part were Sovereign talks to you

He specifically states
"WE IMPOSE ORDER ON THE CHAOS THAT IS EVOLUTION"
and in a less direct quote he states
"WE BUILT THE MASS RELAYS AND THE CITADEL AND WE ENSURED THAT THROUGH YOUR DEPENDANCE YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THEIR SECRETS"

Actuality LISTEN to the dialog next time mmmk?
You seem to be under the impression that anything that is in a story is by definition something that makes sense in the context of the story. This perspective is very strange.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
Blachman201 said:
Vigil tells you that the Reapers relies on surprise and subterfuge in their attacks. In fact their first step during a cycle is to disable the Mass Relays and isolate the civilizations into small cut-off colonies, which they then pick off one by one. This strongly indicates that they consider a counter-attack by a united galaxy a big enough threat against them to take repercussions against it.
Vigil was also made by a race that was entirely destroyed by the reapers and sucked so hard at math that they couldn't giver the fail safe program enough power to keep them alive.

He also even stated almost all of his knowledge is pure guess work.

Kahunaburger said:
You seem to be under the impression that anything that is in a story is by definition something that makes sense in the context of the story. This perspective is very strange.
No I am under the impression that something told in the story and later justified by the games endings makes sense within the content of the story.

It is very strange you don't see that.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
Vigil was also made by a race that was entirely destroyed by the reapers and sucked so hard at math that they couldn't giver the fail safe program enough power to keep them alive.
Math was not the problem, time was.
They did not know how much time the Reapers would take, so math does in no way factor into this problem.

Again, you are making stuff up.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
MomoElektra said:
Math was not the problem, time was.
They did not know how much time the Reapers would take, so math does in no way factor into this problem.

Again, you are making stuff up.
Time and and how much power you would need to allow for your race to survive in that time is math

it is a function of

People X power usage per person per unit of time X overall time needed to stay asleep.

they failed at guessing the overall time needed to stay asleep part of their equation.

It was a failure of math
 

SgtJon117

New member
Dec 13, 2009
8
0
0
By Tartilus of the Bioware forums (I am not he;I just thought this should be shared)

I think it's important for us to consider that, at some point, a community manager is going to have to explain our thoughts to any number of developers, and accordingly it's important that a succinct list of our concerns with the ending is available. Those concerns are numerous, and here are the ones I'm familiar with so far:

1. The endings are extremely sad. This is a much-maligned criticism by individuals who associate depth with the perceived darkness of the endings, and that may or may not be a fair point. Regardless, it stands as obvious that many people were hoping for an ending which proffered some hope beyond that available in even the 'happiest' of endings.

2. The endings contain plotholes. The escape of the Normandy and the teleportation of her crew (including the formerly deceased) are the most obvious, but the lack of sufficient explanation regarding the Catalyst's efforts and origin also makes many of his/its motivations bizarre and unsatisfying.

3. The endings fail to fit in with the broadest themes of the series. Slightly different from 1, this criticism notes that the story of Commander Shepherd has always been a story of achieving the impossible with the help of a close crew and rigorous preparation. The endings as offered do not incorporate the crew, do not change significantly in response to your preparation, and while perhaps technically constitute doing the impossible, fail to meet even that low bar which is a solution that does not have an inevitable cross-racial holocaust and galactic dark age as its result.

4. The endings lack variety. This criticism can be directed at both the artistic and story aspects of the ending ? the results of the ending decision not only vary little (at least, and this is important, on a scale which is important to our experiences in the game), but the resulting cinematics have only minor differences, and the various sub-endings result in changes so small as to be entirely unnoticeable. Consider that some way could've been contrived to make the Synthetic option differ from the Control option in a fashion greater than a change in the color of the 'light' and a different Texture for Joker in the games final seconds.

5. The mechanics of the ending are not appropriate. Without repeating the various criticisms as regards the ending closely mirroring Deus Ex's, the culmination of the story with a game-show-esque approach to saving the world very much fails to be satisfactory, especially when Mass Effect has otherwise been about the integration of choice into the experience

6. The endings lack dependency on the player's choices prior to the last five minutes. This is important, because the entire rest of Mass Effect 3 was about reacting to previous decisions; consider that, provided one is able to fill the 'war asset' bar in a satisfactory manner via some other means, the decisions in the third game serve no purpose to explain, shape, or enhance the endings. This seems contrary to the spirit of the other 95% of the experience.

7. The endings do not make sense given the character of Shepherd. As has been state elsewhere, we are playing some heroic badass who has otherwise talked down to, shrugged off, and inevitably defeated everyone who threatened, cajoled, or otherwise tried to force him to do something he didn't wish to do. In the ending to ME3, this character offers no rigorous questioning, no protests, no counter-arguments, no discussion of any kind save a resigned sort of death-march which could not be more contrary to his character. This is distressing.

8. The endings have implications, perhaps unintended, which seem to ruin the ME Universe. Admittedly, many of these implications could be avoided, but the lack of contrary evidence fosters a suspicion that these matters were either otherwise not considered, or supposed to be generally acceptable. Indeed, they might even be, but only with proper elaboration, of which there is none.

9. The endings fail to provide closure. There is, as a diagram that is floating around illustrates, no falling action. No conclusion. I do not know what happened to my squadmates ? I do not, for reasons that may be bug related, even know which of them is alive. I do not know what happens to the universe, or to the people I've saved. I do not know how I'm remembered, or if any of the terrible things mentioned above actually happens. There almost could not possibly have been less information provided regarding the ending of the game, and that is incredibly distressing when the intention was to wrap up a series that had otherwise displayed all the signs of excellency and had a fond place in our hearts.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
MomoElektra said:
Math was not the problem, time was.
They did not know how much time the Reapers would take, so math does in no way factor into this problem.

Again, you are making stuff up.
Time and and how much power you would need to allow for your race to survive in that time is math

it is a function of

People X power usage per person per unit of time X overall time needed to stay asleep.

they failed at the overall time needed to stay asleep part of their equation.

It was a failure of math
Lol, no.

How do you solve that without knowing time?
You can't, hence it is not a math problem.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
SgtJon117 said:
1. Bioware themselves stated ME2 was darker then ME1 and that ME3 would be darker then ME2, why someone would believe the darkest game in the seires would end on the happiest note in the series is baffling.

2. they specifically say the Normandy is going to rejoin the sword team explaining why it was in-space. People need to pay attention to the dialog more.

3. The broadest themes of the series were self-sacrifice and self-determination, both of which the endings provided.

4. I do agree on this

5. Bioware had stated the choices you made in the first 2 games would affect how Me3's ending played it out. which they did. They changed the number of war assets the player had giving them a chance at one of the better endings earth destroyed/earth ok/ earth meh sequences and made it easier to get the Shep alive ending. Beyond that any notion that the choices would make some huge series of different text pop-ups at the end of the game was a notions created solely by the community and is only their fault for warping the words of bioware into some extreme to fuel their space waifu fantasies.

6. See above

7. when faced with the knowledge that these are the only choices he has most people would act the same way also.

8. If by implications he means the lack of relays mean everyone is fucked? then I would have to disagree, there is nothing that supports tat one day they wouldn't eventually make it back to the stars, in fact the self-determination bit kinda hints that they would.

9. If knowing that you saved the species of the galaxy from total annihilation and enabled them to self-determinate so they can make a better future for-themselves isn't closure then all I can say is those people lack imagination.

I remember back in the days of Bauldr's gate 1 when the entire game was so low detailed you had to basically imagine everything for the game to be sper epic.

Graphics have really erroded people into empty shells.


MomoElektra said:
Lol, no.

How do you solve that without knowing time?
You can't, hence it is not a math problem.
It is called guessing, or estimation.

They apparently didn't realize how long the total annihilation of an entire galaxy would take and thus guessed wrong.

They are poor guessers on what was the most important math problem their race ever had to solve.

what failures.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
2. they specifically say the Normandy is going to rejoin the sword team explaining why it was in-space. People need to pay attention to the dialog more.
The Normandy was in orbit around earth, the fight was in and around earth, the SWORD team was on earth... how does a jump through the mass relay factor in?

Seriously, I'm giving you one for creativity.

MomoElektra:

Lol, no.

How do you solve that without knowing time?
You can't, hence it is not a math problem.
It is called guessing, or estimation.


They apparently didn't realize how long the total annihilation of an entire galaxy would take and thus guessed wrong.
Exactly.

They are poor guessers on what was the most important math problem their race ever had to solve.

what failures.
Guesses and estimations are not math problems. Seriously, are you for real?
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
MomoElektra said:
The Normandy was in orbit around earth, the fight was in and around earth, the SWORD team was on earth... how does a jump through the mass relay factor in?

Seriously, I'm giving you one for creativity.
The Hammer team was on Earth, as that was the ground forces, the sword team are the space fleet, and they were near earth orbit fighting Reapers.

Secondly
-Normandy is in space
-Beam comes out of citadel
-Normady in the path of the beams
-Joker tries to outrun it
-Joker goes through the mass relays trying not to get hit not knowing the beam is gonna go through the relay also
-the beam moving faster then the ship, hits the ship.

That is how i assume it would have happened.

MomoElektra said:
Guesses and estimations are not math problems. Seriously, are you for real?
I never said guesses and estimations are math problem, I said they are used to find out parts of math problems

are you really gonna try to warp what I said to that extent?
At first I thought it was kinda funny, but now its just gotten pathetic.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
The Hammer team was on Earth, as that was the ground forces, the sword team are the space fleet, and they were near earth orbit fighting Reapers.
Minor difference.

That is how i assume it would have happened.
You know what they say about people who assume? Anyway, since it wasn't shown, it didn't happen. I have no problem with you assuming that happened, mind you. I have a big problem with you chastising people who complain that no explanation was given that they should pull one out of their arse like you do.

I never said guesses and estimations are math problem, I said they are used to find out parts of math problems
No, that is not what you said. It's also wrong.
You said the Protheans sucked at Math. But they didn't miscalculate, which would make them suck at math, they guessed falsely, like you admit. But guessing is not math, so a bad guess does not make one bad at math. It's not rocket science.

are you really gonna try to warp what I said to that extent?
At first I thought it was kinda funny, but now its just gotten pathetic.
That's a bit rich coming from you, since you make up stuff and change your point to fit your argument every second post.
 

distortedreality

New member
May 2, 2011
1,132
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
-Normandy is in space
-Beam comes out of citadel
-Normady in the path of the beams
-Joker tries to outrun it
-Joker goes through the mass relays trying not to get hit not knowing the beam is gonna go through the relay also
-the beam moving faster then the ship, hits the ship.

That is how i assume it would have happened.
The beams are directed towards and through the mass relays - why would joker fly through a mass relay if he was trying to avoid the beams? All he would have to do is stick around earth to avoid the beams. It doesn't make much sense no matter how it's twisted imo.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
MomoElektra said:
o, that is not what you said. It's also wrong.
You said the Protheans sucked at Math. But they didn't miscalculate, which would make them suck at math, they guessed falsely, like you admit. But guessing is math, so a bad guess does not make one bad at math. It's not rocket science.

are you really gonna try to warp what I said to that extent?
At first I thought it was kinda funny, but now its just gotten pathetic.
That's a bit rich coming from you, since you make up stuff and change your point to fit your argument every second post.
MomoElektra said:
SajuukKhar said:
The Hammer team was on Earth, as that was the ground forces, the sword team are the space fleet, and they were near earth orbit fighting Reapers.
Minor difference.

That is how i assume it would have happened.
You know what they say about people who assume? Anyway, since it wasn't shown, it didn't happen. I have no problem with you assuming that happened, mind you. I have a big problem with you chastising people who complain that no explanation was given that they should pull one out of their arse like you do.

I never said guesses and estimations are math problem, I said they are used to find out parts of math problems
No, that is not what you said. It's also wrong.
You said the Protheans sucked at Math. But they didn't miscalculate, which would make them suck at math, they guessed falsely, like you admit. But guessing is math, so a bad guess does not make one bad at math. It's not rocket science.

are you really gonna try to warp what I said to that extent?
At first I thought it was kinda funny, but now its just gotten pathetic.
That's a bit rich coming from you, since you make up stuff and change your point to fit your argument every second post.
Yes because a team fighting on the surface of a planet and on in orbit are such a minor difference?

I guess being underwater and on the surface of the moon are "minor differences" also?
.
.
Saying it wasn't shown thus it didn't happen is like saying because we don't see Shepard using the toilet he never did, or that just because we weren't explicitly told civilization rebuilt means the never did.

that is a terribly flawed argument since many of the things in many games are never shown or even outright stated yet they still happened.
.
.
Yes it is what I said, you just assumed I meant something different.

The Protheans do suck at math, the estimate they used, which was wrong, caused them to miscalculate the total energy needed for their life support systems.
-They miscalculated
-They miscalculated due to a bad guess
-Despite being able to build a mass relay they couldn't understand that killing off an entire galaxy took a long time
-whoever made that guess/estimate thus sucks at math.

Well I don't make stuff up, everything I said about the mass relays and The reaper evolution control was stated in-game.

It is a bit funny how terrible you are at trying to warp words.

At least Zeel did it somewhat efficiently.
 

Lassi Kinnunen

New member
Mar 11, 2012
2
0
0
Hyper-space said:
Hammeroj said:
And yes, "leaving it to the players' imaginations" is a cop-out.
Cause fuck you Stanley Kubrick, the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey was shit! Leaving shit to the viewer's imagination, what a cop-out!
2001 doesn't let too much for the viewers imagination. it's a visual illustration of the actual plot - it's not actually symbolic either(just read the book).

in me3 it's a visual interpretation of an ending to the story which doesn't fit with the rest of the story at all.

Now, here's the "best"(synthetic) ending as written by bioware on their flap board for mass effect:
synthetics/organics get merged through magic, normandy crash lands and joker and edi have babies on some garden planet. which is the reason for synthetics and the justification to have it in the plot even if it makes no technical sense at all.


but really the whole engulf galaxy in a magic wave really pisses on the few parts of hard scifi there was in the series. It's like they used a different writer for that. Because it's even more kid-scifi crap than Star Wars.

the war assets was a big letdown - why bother with the war assets having names if they have no meaning? acquiring them through scanning missions is boring, easy and repetitive, there should be some reward from them, like having some pseudo rts phase to the game in the last fight where they're your resources - but no.. no. I had geth on my side, what good did that do? nothing. the war assets are a tacked on element to justify multiplayer to cut down piracy(and 2nd hand sales).

It's not really that people couldn't take a "sad" ending, the endings aren't tragedy endings anyways. It's just that you're presented with play video buttons at the end - in even more let down version than even in deus ex1&hr, here you don't even have people telling you their opinions based on if they're dead or alive. it's as if the story forks right there, in the last 30 seconds of your game - and not in the first 30 minutes of your game as promised, that's harder to pull off though - the ending and storylines as they are now are just lazy, nothing dynamic there.

what's the use of citadel defense forces, if they can make no difference for citadel?

I mean, it's not as bad as KOTOR2, technically it's not unfinished, but it's nearly there as far as writing goes and seems like they didn't really have that much time to do the ending animations.

and for what's it worth, the mass effect universe still has faster than light travel after the mass relays get blown up.

it's just slower than using the jump gates(the jump gates.. sry mass relays are for long range quick jumps) for example normandy and all the spacefaring races in me can travel between local stars at speeds much faster than light, which while being a flaw in the scifi of the me universe does imply that you could still travel to the far reaches of the galaxy, you'd just need fuel depots built on the way and it would take a month instead of hours. the entire galaxy would still be more connected and accessible to the advanced races than what 13th century earth was to humans.

if I would have had a pre-final copy of the game and could have dictated changes, I would have told them to add a 3rd "war" phase to the game - that is, after beating cerberus you would do missions and fight the reapers, you would need to use your war assets to organize protection for citadel and for transporting citadel and crucible to the same place - in this 3rd phase all the assets and alliances you had forged would make the difference.


as far as choice and rpg went, the whole series didn't sprawl from me1 - the opposite happened, it became more like an interactive story where you have to just literally press the mouse button at pre-determined places(I actually let illusive man shoot me once, to see if there was any choice there, there weren't so the player character shooting illusive man could just as well have happened automatically).

as it is, even star control 2 has more epic choices to affect end battle than me's do. and this is not just about understanding the endings, those who say that it is don't seem to understand several points about the me universe themself(because several things pull the rug from under those presented endings - only way they can even work like they do is by "magic" which if it existed would ruin several other plot points, and that wouldn't be too bad if the endings were more distinct and the story better told).
 
Mar 9, 2012
250
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
Vigil was also made by a race that was entirely destroyed by the reapers and sucked so hard at math that they couldn't giver the fail safe program enough power to keep them alive.

He also even stated almost all of his knowledge is pure guess work.
Vigil's dramatic function is to provide the player with exposition on the Reapers and the Protheans. His views therefore more or less directly reflects the writer's thoughts on the subject.

Not to mention that Sovereign's subsequent actions follows what he described.
 

MomoElektra

New member
Mar 11, 2012
122
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
Yes because a team fighting on the surface of a planet and on in orbit are such a minor difference?
When it comes to why the Normandy went through the relay, yes. You do remember that's why we were talking about it, right?

I guess being underwater and on the surface of the moon are "minor differences" also?
Apparently not.


Saying it wasn't shown thus it didn't happen is like saying because we don't see Shepard using the toilet he never did,
Gah, no. One thing is relevant to the plot, one thing is not.

or that just because we weren't explicitly told civilization rebuilt means the never did.
That one you got right by accident.

that is a terribly flawed argument since many of the things in many games are never shown or even outright stated yet they still happened.
Shown does include talked about and such.


Yes it is what I said, you just assumed I meant something different.
So, you said "bad at math" and meant "bad at guessing" and I am at fault for not understanding you meant "bad at guessing"?

The Protheans do suck at math, the estimate they used, which was wrong,
Estimation has nothing to do with math. Only preschoolers thinks like that. How old are you?


caused them to miscalculate the total energy needed for their life support systems.
-They miscalculated
-They miscalculated due to a bad guess
-Despite being able to build a mass relay they couldn't understand that killing off an entire galaxy took a long time
-whoever made that guess/estimate thus sucks at math.
You keep confusing to calculate and to guess - those are two fundamentally different things!

Well I don't make stuff up, everything I said about the mass relays and The reaper evolution control was stated in-game.
Nope, as has been demonstrated you misunderstand simply a lot of it and the rest you make up in your head.

It is a bit funny how terrible you are at trying to warp words.
Hey, you are the one who thinks an estimation is like a calculation. Don't project your failings on me.
 

Aisaku

New member
Jul 9, 2010
445
0
0
One more reason to hate the Synthesis ending: Who can tell this isn't exactly what the Reapers suggested to the original Prothean survivors? We all know how well THAT ended.