Mass Effect 3 Gets An Ending
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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The solution to an Endingtron-3000 isn't linearity, it's having an ending that follows logically from a variety of choices made throughout the game.
Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:FinalHeart95 said:
[link]http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/[/link]
To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.
He is completely missing the point because he is speaking of something he has no idea about and he is not even interested a lot to begin with by his own admission. He is just supporting Bioware so his editor will be happy.irishda said:
Ask Moviebob why gaming companies use focus group and the like then. That's ridiculous: game stories change all the time. But when it's corporation processes or "professional reviewer" insight, it's all fine and legit.
When it's fan feedback it is called entitlement. That's simply ideologic and the fact that gamers are willing to support this shit is depressing.
The writers HAVE NO CONTROL in videogames. They never had. Suggesting the idea that they are free like Cormac McCarthy to write their own tale is beyond ridiculous and insulting. Videogame writers need to take in consideration all kind of pressure in to account: business, design, burocracy, etc. etc..
What's wrong with fan feedback when it has been allready proved that in many games it has helped a lot? Fallout 3, The Witcher, Infamous 2. They have all been changed because of fan feedback.
The fact that the devs have changed the original ending as envisioned and supported by the original lead writer during the two previous games of the series is proof enough of my point.
LEAVE HIM ALONE!
I just thought it was strange that they decided to destroy the Relays, and essentially end the ME universe.
Shep dies heroically, sure, kind of expected. I don't think multiple endings where necessary, and even the final ABC was pretty pointless.
You pretty much got the full story of your crew members and know where their lives were heading, all good, no epilogue required. Right?
Then everyone in the galaxy gets stranded on half destroyed/deserted planets or presumably dies in space when their ships explode(?), um ok. It seems like the creators really don't want to make more ME games.
It would have been an easy out to just have a customized memorial service for Shep cutscene, with a bit for any of the surviving allies/armies the player had collected, and not end the universe.
Nevertheless, I'd play a Mass Effect Mercenaries prequel as long as it has more co-op.
Shep dies heroically, sure, kind of expected. I don't think multiple endings where necessary, and even the final ABC was pretty pointless.
You pretty much got the full story of your crew members and know where their lives were heading, all good, no epilogue required. Right?
Then everyone in the galaxy gets stranded on half destroyed/deserted planets or presumably dies in space when their ships explode(?), um ok. It seems like the creators really don't want to make more ME games.
It would have been an easy out to just have a customized memorial service for Shep cutscene, with a bit for any of the surviving allies/armies the player had collected, and not end the universe.
Nevertheless, I'd play a Mass Effect Mercenaries prequel as long as it has more co-op.
Probably because they don't. According to a number of people, Bioware promised that their choices would matter in the end, but it didn't, at least in their eyes. They felt that Bioware pretty much lied to them in this area, thus the reason that so many people are demanding that they change their ending (might be too late for that though). For once, I would like to see someone who disagrees mention that, even if it's denying it completely.Smertnik said:
Meh...I'm just tired of trying to explain what our problem with Bioware is to people when they just refuse to listen.
I'll try to make it really simple:
When you are promised a wide variety of vastly different endings by multiple people, multiple times...and what you get is one ending in 3 colours...that tends to piss people off. It's not about changing the ending to cater for each individuals preference, it's not about making it a super happy ending where everyone lives and goes home. It's simply about doing what was promised would happen. A lawsuit might sound extreme but what they did was effectively false advertising, and being "just a videogame" doesn't stop false advertising from being illegal and morally corrupt.
5 years of emotional investment into the multiple character creations, hundreds of dollars spent on the games and all the dlc. All of that to be met with a slap-in-the-face choice of 'A, B or C' followed up with a line of text reading "Sheperds a hero, now go buy some DLC" (paraphrased only slightly)".
By the sounds of it, they were holding back the 'real ending' from day 1 to be used as DLC, which makes it even WORSE that they would abuse their consumers in such a manner.
I'll try to make it really simple:
When you are promised a wide variety of vastly different endings by multiple people, multiple times...and what you get is one ending in 3 colours...that tends to piss people off. It's not about changing the ending to cater for each individuals preference, it's not about making it a super happy ending where everyone lives and goes home. It's simply about doing what was promised would happen. A lawsuit might sound extreme but what they did was effectively false advertising, and being "just a videogame" doesn't stop false advertising from being illegal and morally corrupt.
5 years of emotional investment into the multiple character creations, hundreds of dollars spent on the games and all the dlc. All of that to be met with a slap-in-the-face choice of 'A, B or C' followed up with a line of text reading "Sheperds a hero, now go buy some DLC" (paraphrased only slightly)".
By the sounds of it, they were holding back the 'real ending' from day 1 to be used as DLC, which makes it even WORSE that they would abuse their consumers in such a manner.
So... what? You'll only lay down The Dolla for happy endings?Sandytimeman said:
*slap*Major_Tom said:
Oh, and I guess you now like Deus Ex HR's ending too?
Human Revolution's ending is good. Inelegant, but it serves it's purpose to a tee.
OT: I finished it about 5 minutes ago. Whilst it is not the best ending ever, it is definitely not the worst thing in the world, by any means. And even if it was, people need to seriously consider what they want this industry to be before they demand a rewrite.
I can understand the desire for every sweeping epic to end like Return of the King, but at the same time, people need to accept that not every writer wants to end their stories like that - and that's who ultimately calls the story shots. Design-by-committee is rarely (if ever) good, and making that committee out of a few thousand people doesn't change that.
And whilst the thing with the kid was a little odd, they'd hinted at whatever he was fairly strongly.
But yes, I would have preferred a RotK, let's all get down with Frodo on the bed ending too - I'm a soppy fuck, I guess. And yes, I would have preferred an ending that did take into account your previous decisions; even so, your choices to do have consequences, they just happen on the journey, and not at the destination.
This summaries my feelings mostly: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/19/whats-right-with-mass-effect-3s-ending/
In combination with this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-the-end-of-an-epic/
Not a great ending, not the worst ending, could have been handled better, but the last 5 minutes should not wipe 90 hours of goodness, and we should not have collective creative control of a writer's work.
Funny how this comes from the same guy who said that if it were up to him he'd rewrite the new Star Wars trilogy after sending the ACTUAL author off to play with a colouring book.
Sure, it was a joke, but i'd really love to see him defending THAT abomination, which is ACTUALLY what the author wanted (or so he stated), while accusing us of being out of line when, it appears, most of the writing staff wasn't even aware of ME3's ending's content.
You dropped the ball, Croshaw. Big time.
Sure, it was a joke, but i'd really love to see him defending THAT abomination, which is ACTUALLY what the author wanted (or so he stated), while accusing us of being out of line when, it appears, most of the writing staff wasn't even aware of ME3's ending's content.
You dropped the ball, Croshaw. Big time.
It does not make sense still. The fact that they leave so they can do the same kind of holocaust over and over again, every bloody 50'000 years, make no sense at all if their goal is to protect organic life. Killing a child or an old man is still a form of homicide. Homicide is not the best way to preserve someone. Not to say that the whole 50'000 years cycle make no sense if it's related to technological advancement wich could go in any other way and it's hard to predict (instead it made sense in the original vision of the endings since it was linked to the way the ME universe worked in term of law of physics).irishda said:
But the Reapers themselves off course. Why kill any intelligent form of life every 50000 years if they could protect us form a race like the Geth? They could make any kind of miracle with their godlike powers. They could guide evolution anyway they want. They could intervene clinically and resolve any kind of problems with indoctrination and such.
That's not what the Starchild has to say on the issue. But most of all you must admit it is contrived at best.
That's all that the fan who have criticized the endings have said. Point is, I've read a lot of fan fiction and constructive proposal on ME3 ending. And most of them are better than the ending we actually get.
idarkphoenixi said:
No, everyone GETS that. EVERYONE understands this is why a lot of people are pissed (don't forget lots of people have listed other reasons too). There is no confusion on this point, and I promise you, Yahtzee understands people are mad because they didn't get what was promised. That's not what Yahtzee's arguing. No one is suddenly saying, "Let's not hold developers accountable." Some people might be saying, "Why the hell are you listening to presale hype?" but no one's saying developers lying isn't wrong.samaugsch said:
Yahtzee, and the majority of bloggers that don't agree with Retaking ME, are arguing that it's a bad precedent to set that every story can be changed if the fans yell loud enough and long enough. You're both on completely different pages and that's not entirely his fault.
Don't understand the Mass Effect ending furore. I mean, feel disappointment, sure. But petition Bioware to make a new ending? That doesn't "undo" the ending. The ending is the one they gave it; another would merely tack onto it, an alternate ending.
I was disappointed by the end of the Peter F. Hamilton's "Void Trilogy". That continued on from another two books, so in total I had read about 5,000 pages before reaching that ending. And it was disappointing. But I didn't go email the man and demand he re-write the ending. That would be ridiculous...
I was disappointed by the end of the Peter F. Hamilton's "Void Trilogy". That continued on from another two books, so in total I had read about 5,000 pages before reaching that ending. And it was disappointing. But I didn't go email the man and demand he re-write the ending. That would be ridiculous...
I never played Mass Effect anything. But, hearing the uproar, I was present when my heavily invested fiance finished it.
You know, listening to that old man talk about The Shepard story to the kid, the ending made sense to me in that Storyteller Recapping Legend sense, where it really doesn't make any sort of logical sense, but it's told because of the epicness of it. And then, when the kid asks for more Shepard stories? Oh yeah, that sounds like an invitation to explain the ending in a non-legend-story sense.
Plus, y'know, that big ol' grinning 'buy the DLC!' sign they hung up at the very end didn't ring any alarm bells? You have an ending that is essentially a cliffhanger, and then the old man, the kid and the DLC sign?
What I do know is that my fiance was very, very depressed. So, good job on the story department there, even though I do think it was pretty cheap thrills!
For an ending to a trilogy, it didn't feel like an ending to me so much as a 'come back later!'
You know, listening to that old man talk about The Shepard story to the kid, the ending made sense to me in that Storyteller Recapping Legend sense, where it really doesn't make any sort of logical sense, but it's told because of the epicness of it. And then, when the kid asks for more Shepard stories? Oh yeah, that sounds like an invitation to explain the ending in a non-legend-story sense.
Plus, y'know, that big ol' grinning 'buy the DLC!' sign they hung up at the very end didn't ring any alarm bells? You have an ending that is essentially a cliffhanger, and then the old man, the kid and the DLC sign?
What I do know is that my fiance was very, very depressed. So, good job on the story department there, even though I do think it was pretty cheap thrills!
For an ending to a trilogy, it didn't feel like an ending to me so much as a 'come back later!'
Again, the OP misses the point completely. What is it with journalists all `catching` blindness with this specific issue? You're not as invested in this series as some of the other journalists who've missed the point, but wow... Not one, other than the guys at GS, actually seemed to have given the fans a fair look.
The "artistic" direction they took isn't at issue. The standard of their work, which is frankly sub-fanfiction in the last 5 minutes-- a visual diatribe of plot holes(1) and inconsistencies with the lore that cheapen the entire investiture made by the fans, *that* is at issue.
1. Why normandy using relays? When and why did Joker leave the battle for Earth? How, without the sudden invention, construction and integration of beaming tech, do the squad members from London get aboard for the ass-pull EDEN WORLD FINALE? These and more.
There's also the small matter of these.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1
You make statements and promises and your game isn't bang on them, that's called overstatement. Sometimes you overstate the virtues of something and you take peoples' money when you otherwise wouldn't have. That's pretty wrong.
Then there's lying. Presumably you've seen the ending, Yahtzee. Don't you think it made a lie of virtually everything in the OP of that thread? Don't you think that when those promises made up a part of the basis for my purchase of the game, I'm well within reason to say "Make adjustments or give me the money back"?
What we want is a finale that makes fucking sense. That'd be nice. If they're feeling super generous, then a finale that I couldn't have written myself during a restless nights' sleep with a pen sticking out of my ass would be a WILD bonus.
I and my fellow complainants don't care about the narrative or "artistic" direction, this isn't about those things. They could make a finale we'd hate and quite a lot of us would still support them- I would. Provided that those promises still got met and it wasn't riddled with holes.
Once more for the other Escapists, that is NOT about integrity, it's about STANDARDS. Works of literature, STORIES, are not like paintings. You can't stand back and go "oh well, there is no good or bad, there's just the ARTÉSTES VISIÓNE", like some awful worshipper of 'fine art'. Stories can be screwed up by objective, cut and dried mistakes. And that happened here big time.
The "artistic" direction they took isn't at issue. The standard of their work, which is frankly sub-fanfiction in the last 5 minutes-- a visual diatribe of plot holes(1) and inconsistencies with the lore that cheapen the entire investiture made by the fans, *that* is at issue.
1. Why normandy using relays? When and why did Joker leave the battle for Earth? How, without the sudden invention, construction and integration of beaming tech, do the squad members from London get aboard for the ass-pull EDEN WORLD FINALE? These and more.
There's also the small matter of these.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1
You make statements and promises and your game isn't bang on them, that's called overstatement. Sometimes you overstate the virtues of something and you take peoples' money when you otherwise wouldn't have. That's pretty wrong.
Then there's lying. Presumably you've seen the ending, Yahtzee. Don't you think it made a lie of virtually everything in the OP of that thread? Don't you think that when those promises made up a part of the basis for my purchase of the game, I'm well within reason to say "Make adjustments or give me the money back"?
What we want is a finale that makes fucking sense. That'd be nice. If they're feeling super generous, then a finale that I couldn't have written myself during a restless nights' sleep with a pen sticking out of my ass would be a WILD bonus.
I and my fellow complainants don't care about the narrative or "artistic" direction, this isn't about those things. They could make a finale we'd hate and quite a lot of us would still support them- I would. Provided that those promises still got met and it wasn't riddled with holes.
Once more for the other Escapists, that is NOT about integrity, it's about STANDARDS. Works of literature, STORIES, are not like paintings. You can't stand back and go "oh well, there is no good or bad, there's just the ARTÉSTES VISIÓNE", like some awful worshipper of 'fine art'. Stories can be screwed up by objective, cut and dried mistakes. And that happened here big time.
http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/
Great read, pretty much nails it.
Personally, all for artistic integrity.
Had there been any in this case, the game wouldn't of shipped as is.
Is not THAT the point?
If properties are disposable, does that not mitigate the value of art?
How many Journalist have working experience in or with industrial design?
Is the art gambit simply a hedge to attempt to transcend commercial products (toys) to a different status as self justification for further purchases with an aging demographic?
Clearly Patcher of GT seems to think they are just "products".
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/what-would-pach-attack/728335
Concluding that the problem with "video games" is that "gamers" whine to much.
In a perfect world the business model would look more like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvDu3IysKiM&feature=related
Great read, pretty much nails it.
Personally, all for artistic integrity.
Had there been any in this case, the game wouldn't of shipped as is.
Is not THAT the point?
If properties are disposable, does that not mitigate the value of art?
How many Journalist have working experience in or with industrial design?
Is the art gambit simply a hedge to attempt to transcend commercial products (toys) to a different status as self justification for further purchases with an aging demographic?
Clearly Patcher of GT seems to think they are just "products".
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/what-would-pach-attack/728335
Concluding that the problem with "video games" is that "gamers" whine to much.
In a perfect world the business model would look more like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvDu3IysKiM&feature=related