Mass Effect 3: It's not the endings, its the final battle (And synthesis)

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JellySlimerMan

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Atmos Duality said:
I'm not dismissing criticism from Mass Effect; it was an ambitious series by its very premise, and that I think knowing that makes its failure sting all that much more.

However, if there is an ounce of truth in what I've read about the writers; e.g., them making shit up as they went along, then it's no surprise to me that this failed.
Branching plotlines is not something you write as openly at each step so you can change the story for the whim of mass-market appeal.
Well, making choice carry over to the next game isnt precicely a new thing:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OldSaveBonus

Its just not done very often, and who know how many games that were lost in the cloudy days before the internet, HAD that feature but it was not well know to the public (i can imagine the budget wasnt enough to market the bloody thing). Hell, i believe that there are JRPG that have not been exported here that has it.

But anyway, if not for the Save Import feature, all we have is a series whose branching is still nothing compared to, say, an RTS RPG in 3rd Person like "Sacrice", made in 2000.

Why not make a shorter but more branched out game, so the experience is more satisfing and directly to the point?

And if making branches off the narrative is too expensive, then why not sell the game by parts? For example, lets say that they have to make a sequel to Deus Ex 1 where a SINGLE game has to make a plot around ALL the choices possible and the 3 endings of the first game (for full disclosure, Deus Ex Invisible War actually managed to make a plot where ALL 3 endings were true....somehow)

They would never finish the game on time, UNLESS they talk to the fans and ask them which of the 3 endings would they like to be adresses FIRST on the next game. Because making a SINGLE game that adjust itself for all those options takes too long, too expensive, and the fans will get impatient, so why not make it by parts that they will later be upgraded or patched into a full game later on? The full version is STILL going to be made, it just that this way they would at least gain a bit of extra time and money, patching up the game until the idea of a game that took ALL the choices of the previous game is completed.

You may say that Mass Effect 3 is already doing that because of the constant DLCs coming up, but those dont add to the branching, those are just more places to visit and get EMS. What would be DLC that adds to the branching of the narrative? well, how about running with the rumor that was around OMEGA DLC? you know, the idea that OMEGA was a failed or incomplete Crusible? instead of spending time with the other Crusible, we could study this one and see why it didnt work before, maybe we could learn far ahead of time what the eventual 3 choices at the end would be and this will make Shepard and its squad (or even the whole alliance of species) discuss this newfound information to debate the implacations of using a Crusible AT ALL, since we now know that we can Control Reapers, Destroy all technology, or merge with the machines.

This drastically changes to plot because now we have the entire galaxy debating the PROS and CONS of each possible ending (thus aclimating the audience before they finaly get to choose a fate for everyone) the alliances that you made during the game are now about to rupture by the sheer presure this information has. The Quarians will go desperate in convincing everyone else that The Geth are a justificable loss by using Destroy, because they are a minor problem if they dissapear along with The Reapers, and that is preferable than having all organic life dying. The Geth would argue that Controlling the Reapers will be no different to what the heretic were doing, using the strenght of others instead of forging their own path. The Salarians will find repugnant to be in Synthesis with inferior species like the Krogan. The Asari will question how is being connected to the Reapers via Synthesis or Controlling them is going to protect everyone from being indoctrinated, since those can do it even without trying. So on and so forth.

But another implication rises up, and that is the fact that the Crusible seems to be designed to be used by ONE person. Meaning that, for example, a single person (whoever manages to reach those controls) will get to be the one controlling the Reapers.

But who will be able to reach it?? that sends the whole discussion to an even heated temperature. The Salarians would rather get there first before a Krogan would be stupid enough to assume control of the Reapers and inflict their warmongering ways upon all the galaxy. Others will not like the implications of a Quarian being melted in Synthesis, because that would make everyone like them, and thus have a vulnerable immune system.

After all that discussion (that you SHOULD be able to influence in some way to a particular ending you want), the races conclude that X ending is the best and EVERYONE should agree on it for the safety of the mayority. At this point, you can:

1) Accept to make the Crusible we have now to be modified to have 1 of the 3 endings, to make sure that whoever uses it, it will only have that one option that everyone agrees and not the others options that may fuck everything up.

2) Suggest that using a Crusible at ALL is a waste of time and resourses, and almost anything can go wrong if the thing doesnt work properly. Too much fate in something so fragile. And instead, use the resourse to make weapons and suport conventional weapons to defeat the Reapers.

In case you accept "1)" there is a gameplay mechanic where you use the Shadow Brooker Liara to monitor and control communications and information around the developing and altering of the Crusible. Why? because since the races are still too fucking dense to colaborate, there is the possiblity that someone doesnt adhere to the rules and sabotaje The Crusible to do what THEY want YOU (or whoever reaches it) to do.

An hypothetical would be: All the races voted for just have Synthesis as the ONLY ending available, but the Geth dont like that and they would rather change the Crusible to have only Destroy, because they would rather die than be connected to The Reapers and that also makes sure that everyone else has a future without the Reapers ever appearing again. If you dont convince the Geth or dont keep an eye on their movements, by the time you reach the part where you meet The Catalyst, instead of Synthesis available, Destroy would be the only one to choose. The Geth may even call you by radio or something and flat out tell you that they did it, and try to convince you to choose it anyway, because if you dont, the Crusible will be destroyed and everyone will die.

Well, that is a long ass hypothetical "ideal" branching by Add Ons DLC . Maybe another improvement over that wall of text would be patching path "2)" next. Add a gameplay mechanic were you divert resourses to a particular weapon to mass produce. Like producing 100 ships with Thanix Cannons and 5 Klendagon Weapons on Mars to shoot the Reapers from long distance to Earth. Or maybe make all ground troops be equipped with Anti-Indoctrination measures develop by researching Shiala and the people who became immune to Indoc because of being controlled by The Thorian, have those troops use Cains to kill Destroyer Reapers and receive orbital support from Salarian Dreadnoughts equipped with Thanix and Stealth.
 

JellySlimerMan

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MarsAtlas said:
Its an assumption made on the part that Harby is the leader of the Reapers, which is a contradiction of its own. Unless there's an imprint somewhere on the Citadel of what is really controlling the Reapers, there's no other logical alternative.
Leader or not, The Reapers certainly refers to him as an individual a lot of times. For example, remember the exchange of the dead reaper on Rannoch after you fight it?

Reaper: "Shepard"
Shep: "You know about me?"
Reaper: "Harbinger speaks of you. You Resist but you will fail"

If they are some kind of collective like the Geth (or like The Catalyst say about "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers") then why not say: "We speak of you. You Resist but you will fail"

Another possiblity of Harbinger being the leader is that he was the first Reaper made out of the Leviathan bodies. They probably appointed him as leader because, in a way, Harbinger IS the creators of the Reapers. Leaviathan made The Catalyst who obeyed their directive of preserving life and then made Harbinger out of their bodies. Maybe they obey Harbinger on the notion that the creators are still alive and carring their will by using Harbinger as a wessel?
 

JellySlimerMan

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AD-Stu said:
MarsAtlas said:
Again, why? Its stupid to give your enemy control over your fate, hoping they choose the self-defeating option, or at least force you into slavery.
Just throwing this out there again... the Starchild / Reapers don't necessarily consider organics to be their "enemies", as such. In their twisted way they believe they're doing what they're doing for the good of organics.

Do you think that changes the situation at all?
Ignoring that Sovereing wasnt a very nice person when refering to organics, i think you are reffering to the fact that The Catayst said: "You may be in conflict with the Reapers, but they are not interested in war", right?
 

JellySlimerMan

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MarsAtlas said:
The cutscene with the fleet is absolutely meaningless because of EMS. I can come in with as little fleets as possible and still win because I played a lot of multiplayer.
I wonder, how much EMS or Galactic Readiness can the multiplayer give you? its there a limit? if you can ACTUALLY do as little as possible on Single Player, making the worst choices with the lowest EMS you can get by the endgame, and then play multiplayer all the way until you get the best ending via high EMS, that would show everyone that even an idiot who let almost everyone die in the Suicide Mission can still get a big army and a perfectly defended Crusible.
 

JellySlimerMan

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Devoneaux said:
Lily Venus said:
Devoneaux said:
Except you never see the consequences of wiping the geth out. All it amounts to is a number on a bar, easily replaced by playing Multiplayer.
Hey, Tali, how are the quarians doing on Rannoch without the geth?

Oooh, look at all of those quarian ships joining the battle over Earth! But not a geth ship in sight! I wonder why...?
And yet choosing the quarians over the geth does absolutely NOTHING to change the outcome of events during the ending. If you pick the geth, you get the exact same choices as you would if you pick both. Really the only thing that changes is a line of dialogue here or there, but it's nothing extensive, where your success rides on the decisions you make. It's like how finding resources that go towards getting the crucible working is completely pointless because it will always get finished right when you need it regardless.
In theory anyway.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Crucible

The Human Reaper remains, unlike the other things that mostly need you to scan stuff, are a mandatory asset after finishing the Cerberus Base mission from the main plot, but even before starting the mission Hacket tells you that The Crusible is ready, so THR is just a cherry on top. I will, however, find it funny if the game actually tell you that The Crusible its completed with almost nothing.

You need 4000 EMS to get all the endings and single player can only give you 3250 EMS. You either need to play multiplayer or install The Extended Cut that lowers the EMS from 4000 to 3100.
 

JellySlimerMan

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MarsAtlas said:
Also, you can't go through the game without gathering War Assets for the Crucible.
Yes, but at the same time, those war assets aren't enough to get you past minimum EMS. Its literally the minimum requirement - how do your choices matter when its just to reach a minimum requirement?
But The Extended Cut lowered the minimum needed from 4000 to 3100, so you dont "technically" need the multiplayer anymore as it was in Pre-EC.
 

AD-Stu

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Before I go on ignoring my own advice, just a thought:

I think we can all acknowledege that, whatever our feelings about the Mass Effect series (huge fans, can't stand it, whatever) it was written by multiple people over several years and as a result its story, lore and universe is filled with contradictions, plot holes, retcons, knowledge gaps and inconsistencies. Unless someone high up at Bioware decides to come out with some definitive Word of God, a lot of what we're discussing here will never be answered definitively.

So how about we try to take a few deep breaths and maybe have a laugh or two while we talk about all this?

MarsAtlas said:
Why are we supposed to assume that though? We didn't even know what the Catalyst could do before docking - for all we knew it could've been a lame duck. Also, why did the decision had to be made right there? Why couldn't you get the smartest and most knowledgable researchers, scientists, and tech experts in the galaxy on board to find an alternative?
That actually highlights one of my biggest problems with the plot of ME3 and it's not the ending - it's actually the very beginning. "We have absolutely no idea what this thing is going to do, so let's put all of our eggs into its basket and hope for the best!" just seems like such an abysmally stupid plan.

For all we knew the Crucible could have been another Reaper trap, and connecting it to the Catalyst could have indoctrinated all organic species within a hundred light years of any mass relay, forcing them all to do a Gangam Style conga line into the nearest Reaper processing centre.

MarsAtlas said:
But not all species had a say in the choice to synthesize. Only one species made the choice, and even then, it was one person among billions of human beings. It would actually make more sense if it were only humans being systhesized, because that is consistent from Mass Effect 2.
Agreed, and it's another reason I hate synthesis - what gives Shepard the right to turn the entire universe into toasters with feelings?!?

MarsAtlas said:
That also brings into question the existence of the Collectors and the Keepers. Were they made into Reapers? Why were only Protheans conducting the duties of the Collectors, when there are hundreds if not thousands of potential species that they can repurpose in a data storage know that is a Reaper? Are Collectors just somehow better beyond a shadow of a doubt in every way possible than any other species the Reapers have encountered? If thats the case, why are the Keepers still around then? When the Reapers stopped being about conquest and started being about preservation, it invalidated the existence of the Keepers and the Collectors.
Don't forget the Adjutants! We don't even know what species they were but they were apparently good enough to keep hanging around... yeah, I've got no answers on this point either.

JellySlimerMan said:
Ignoring that Sovereing wasnt a very nice person when refering to organics, i think you are reffering to the fact that The Catayst said: "You may be in conflict with the Reapers, but they are not interested in war", right?
Acutally, I'm mostly referring to Leviathan, which explicitly stated that the Reapers / Catalyst were created to save organics from AIs. The fact that they didn't program them well enough / the Reapers twisted that mandate around into harvesting said species for their own good doesn't change the fact that they still think they're doing this for the good of the organic species.

In that context, I choose to write off the other quotes from Sovereign / Harbinger to the effect of "we are the vanguard of your destruction", "we will destroy you" etc as either artistic licence or translator failures :p
 

King Billi

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AD-Stu said:
Agreed, and it's another reason I hate synthesis - what gives Shepard the right to turn the entire universe into toasters with feelings?!?
What gives Shepard the right? You do! You're the one who ultimatly chooses what decision he/she makes at that point so I don't see why you can have a problem with the choice itself... just don't choose it.

I really don't get the objection people have to this one ending specifically..? Isn't it supposed to be a morally questionable choice? Is the option of saving the most lives ultimately worth sacrificing personal choice and diversity?

I just don't see how this choice is any different than several other difficult choices I've had to make in this series, just because Synthesis saves the most lives overall dosen't make it the objectively "Good" ending, you're forced to sacrifice something important whichever choice you make. It all comes down to what you personally value most, saving lives or preserving personal freedom.

Thats how I saw it anyway.
 
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Saviordd1 said:
But what really gets me is that there is no pay off on Earth. Jacks students aren't keeping my barriers up, I don't see grunt and wrex charge over a hill into a group of reapers, the rachni don't kill their indoctrinated cousins, Zaeed doesn't shoot a few enemies while muttering something about "guddaam bastads"

In short, there is no big moment with your friends. And that hurts because when you come down to it the entire series was about forging friendships and alliances to defeat a huge threat. Yet at the end all we got was the Alliance with a few other token members of the races added in fighting.
The worst part is that some cut dialogue strongly indicates that meeting squadmates and other races in the final battle was planned at some point:

Grunt:

Jacob:

Jack:

Zaeed:

Geth (some of this dialogue can be heard from Geth Prime if you kill off the Quarians):

So much wasted potential...

EDIT:
MarsAtlas said:
I'm glad I'm not the only person who was questioning that from the very beginning. I remember thinking something along the lines of "Hey, you remember how we killed Saren? We need to do make something that can separate their minds from their bodies", and thats what I was hoping the Crucible would be.
I have kinda hope for that too. As much as I think the Crucible plot was a stupid direction to go in, it would have tired things up somewhat nicely, and the control ending could possibly even have been worked in. Something along the lines of the Illusive Man trying to convince Shepard to help him hijack the project near the end, and then the player could pull a "Why do I need you, Jerec?" on him, and become galactic emperor or something.
 

AD-Stu

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Blachman201 said:
The worst part is that some cut dialogue strongly indicates that meeting squadmates and other races in the final battle was planned at some point:
Yeah, a lot of that dialog would certainly suggest that. Wonder if it was a conscious choice to cut that stuff, or if they just ran out of time to implement it?

Also, am I the only one that got a laugh out of the fact that Jacob only had 13 seconds worth of dialog, even less than Zaeed the fairly-dull DLC character? :p
 
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JellySlimerMan said:
Still bugs me how people think that Reapers CANT be defeated conventionally. Even without the Klendagon Weapon, Thanix Cannons, Cains, hit and run tactics of Turians in Palaven, and researching anti indoctrination by scanning the brains of the people manipulated by The Thorian like Shiala (we find out in ME3 that they are immune to indoctrination thanks to being a Hive Mind), we could have researched the Geth VR machine to see if we can get a version where you can infiltrate a Reaper network or mind and destroy the programing codes that make it work, making it braindead enough to blow it up later.

Alternatively, we could either reprogram if it is possible, to make Reaper attack each other by altering the IFF system they have. Or even better! since all Reapers are interconnected to one another, we could surf the Reaper mental network until we get to Harbinger or The Catalyst and confront it directly or wipe out its mind.

No need to destroy the shell ships, just make an Internet Powered Lobotomy, and Reapers begone. Too bad that the narrative forgets that such tools exist and that COULD be useful. Like how everyone forgot about The Conduit on Ilos even if it wasnt broken.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. The only reason, however, why they can be defeated conventionally is that they're tactically inept. You couldn't make the games any other way. Take their plan with the Keepers for example. Why send a signal to the Keepers instead of the Citadel itself?
Another nonsensical decision is to have the capital ships join the fight. If I were Harbinger, I would send swarms of Oculi or some other fully synthetic forces through the relays. They have 50,000 years and access to god knows how many resources to build an army that would dwarf everything we could throw at them. And I doubt that we could break through their computer systems. Legion himself tells us that even the Geth can't comprehend them. Except in ME3 where they somehow break through Reaper-code without explaining how they're suddenly able to do it.

EDIT1: Even with all their technology, the Reapers werent able to make their bodies as durable as the very Mass Relays they built. Think about it, wont be much more efficient in durability a body that can survive a NOVA explotion like the Relays do? it also makes the job of preserving life in their bodies alot easier.
That's my point. They're dumb for the sake of gameplay and storytelling. We would be screwed if they simply tried harder.
 

votemarvel

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Lily Venus said:
What indication is there that the Crucible can even be used in a way other than the options that the Catalyst tells Shepard about?
This is what annoys me about the Crucible. The races put so much effort into building the Crucible with absolutely no idea what it does or how to activate it.

It's a Reaper destroying weapon? How do they know? They don't know what it does.

All they knew about the Crucible was that it was a massive power source and eventually it connected to the Citadel. How did they know it just wasn't going to give a massive power boost to the relay network and bring in Reapers from the other parts of the galaxy!

This is why I, right up until the end, believed that the Crucible was a Reaper plant to get races to commit resources to building it that could have been used on upgrading their ships.
 

Yureina

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TheRussian said:
Yureina said:
*sips tea*

Boy, am I glad I never played this game. I can keep a safe distance from all the drama and BS that it has generated. :3
I'm right there with you. I never cared for the aesthetics of Mass Effect, they completely ruined any immersion I felt playing ME1, so I never finished a single game. And for all the people who are upset: it's time to let go, and move on.
Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed ME1 and ME2. But EA's anti-consumer activities disgusted me enough that I chose not to give them any more of my money, even if the price was not being able to play my (then) #1 wishlist game. Time ultimately seems to have rewarded me, since I've been able to sit back and watch all the drama ME3's ending has produced with a sense of detachment since I didn't actually play it.

So... thanks to EA for being wankers? XD