Mass Effect isn't an RPG?!

[Spencer Petersen]

While the dialogue and character action/reaction definitely make it an RPG the combat and other sections are fundamentally similar no matter what character path you chose to take. The combat styles don't change, the enemies don't change the items and weapons you use don't change. I would classify it as a Half-RPG.

(If you don't agree with my "combat strategy is the same" assessment just think about this: Imagine you're watching someone play either Mass Effect while skipping over all the dialogue sections and then try to figure out if that was a Paragon or Renegade.)

 

[Engarde]

I usually classify the games like they play... I may mention Mass Effect in "RPG threads", but for me it played like a Shooter with talking bits (and I'd call Fallout 3 almost a total FPS)...

You may get confused fast if you want to make a general definition out of it or if you want to narrow/limit it to certain factors as more and more Shooters like the latest Wolfenstein (that had item shops, item upgrades, quests and even a "main hub" with several missions) etc. or Dead Space/Bioshock (with armor and weapon upgrades + different abilities and ability enhancers/perks) get more and more "RPG elements".

If it plays like an RPG (Baldur's Gate, Dragon Age) I call it an RPG, if it plays like a shooter e.g. you run around and actually shoot stuff... with a gun for the largest part of the game I call it a shooter.

You have put this well. We are all arguing over something largely subjective. Honestly, most people are set enough in their ways that is largely unlikely someone will have their opinion permanently swayed from these discussions.

I agree with you, too. I think Mass Effect played like a shooter with talkie bits. I did not much like the talkie bits either, but that is an entirely seperate thread.

 

[jamescorck]

Absolutely agree with you right there.

It's not hard to see why people refuse to call Mass Effect an RPG. They seem to just focus on the action, because it's not turn based, or it doesn't have damage points floating over the enemies' heads, or because it doesn't force you to grind up a load before facing the end of a level, etc. In that aspect Mass Effect has a lot of shooter, which is good! It makes the action digestable, thrilling, entertaining.

The RPG core and soul of Mass Effect resides in the story, the characters, the plot development and the dialogue. You do feel it to be your story, or at least the story of your Commander Shepard. When I play tabletop Role Games with my fellows on the weekends, that's what we focus the most on, the stories and the way we develop our characters. Mass Effect is like that. Instead of throwing dice you are launching grenades and blasting off aliens. Which is 100 times cooler.

 

[StBishop]

As long as your character's actions aren't linearly scripted, it's an RPG. This makes Mass Effect an RPG.

RPG is a highly debatable term these days. Japanese RPGs did most of the foundations in terms of video game RPGs, and they did so by involving player stats and highly customizable battle/equipment setups. However, now that Western RPGs have come onto the scene, we have people claiming that the key element of role-playing is the ability to indeed play a role, making decisions and driving the story and personality of the main character. So it's hard to really know what an RPG is in the first place.

I say any of these elements counts as "RPG elements," meaning that a game that incorporates them as a huge aspect of the game is an RPG. The first Mass Effect is absolutely an RPG. THe second is more debatable, but I would still call it an action RPG.

It's a sticky subject, but some people have gotten really picky about it. For that matter, often people will make up a new definition specifically to exclude some kind of RPG they don't like (I'm looking squarely at you, JRPG haters). You can't let it bother you; disagree, debate it if you want, but it's a typical occurrence.

This makes me think about Paper Mario. I had deduced that it was an RPG because of its use of experience points, and all RPGs to my knowledge have those. But now with the more Western style of unscripted action and nonlinearity based in having your character play a unique role in the story, is it still an RPG by Western Standards? Are the Pokemon games RPGs in that same standard?

It's all so confusing.

I thought pokemon games are JRPG's. Aren't they? I thought this was general concensus.

 

[Chunko]

The bit about it being about putting yourself into someone else's shoes. If that were the case I feel like HL2 would be an RPG.

I didn't say anything about putting on someone else's shoes.

I said create your own character.

Well in that case as much as I like mass effect your choices are limited in both appearance and choices. By those standards SR2 is an RPG.

 

[seditary]

A lot of agro going on all over the place here, surprised there hasn't been some moderator wrath thrown about.

Personally the fact that RPG is even muttered in consideration to a electronic entertainment device is incorrect.

RPG is not a computer gaming genre. There's RPGs, then CRPGs, and that's it. CRPGs are so broad there is no practical meaning to the term anymore and is only worth fun arguing in ridiculous threads such as this.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Apeshit? That seems more excessive than anything I've done here.

You're right, you didn't mention JRPGs (though your definition of RPG belies your intent). It has been mentionned in this thread quite a bit by others (which is exactly what a thread like this would become - and by the second post).

No, I didn't go apeshit. If I were, I would not be this civil ^.^

My definition of an RPG is for me alone and not the subject of this thread as it was only mentioned once and then dropped in favor of the comparisons of Mass Effect to KotOR. Unless you want to believe my secret "intent" was to antagonize JRPGs by not speaking about them at all?

If others have been talking shit about JRPGs, take it up with them. Otherwise, stop acting like everyone here is just out for a genre bashing.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Well in that case as much as I like mass effect your choices are limited in both appearance and choices. By those standards SR2 is an RPG.

I have a wonder as to if you even read my original post at all.

 

[Chunko]

Apeshit? That seems more excessive than anything I've done here.

You're right, you didn't mention JRPGs (though your definition of RPG belies your intent). It has been mentionned in this thread quite a bit by others (which is exactly what a thread like this would become - and by the second post).

No, I didn't go apeshit. If I were, I would not be this civil ^.^

My definition of an RPG is for me alone and not the subject of this thread as it was only mentioned once and then dropped in favor of the comparisons of Mass Effect to KotOR. Unless you want to believe my secret "intent" was to antagonize JRPGs by not speaking about them at all?

If others have been talking shit about JRPGs, take it up with them. Otherwise, stop acting like everyone here is just out for a genre bashing.

I read the first four paragraphs, if you're a good writer I should be able to get away with only reading the first.

 

[UBERfionn]

Your 100% right in my book.

It's about making and ROLE PLAYING your character.
JRPG's are not RPG's for that reason.

The same goes for you too.

RPG's are about role playing. Menu systems and exp help in the role playing but it's just one part of it. the core is the role playing.

I'm sure there are some JRPG's that do have proper role playing in them but mmost don't and are still labeled as RPG's.

JRPG's can be awesome but just because you have exp and menu's does not make you an RPG.

I can cop out or what it is one says with;
Just because you have choices in a game doesn't mean it's an RPG.

If you're going to point your finger at one specific type and say "That's not RPG".. Then you are wrong.

Sure just having choises in a game does not make it an RPG, but they do help towards makeing a connection to the PC.
Thats what I mean by Role playing. YOU are the hero, YOU suffer through his down's and rejoice when he wins. There is a connection in RPG's with the PC, he is your connection to the world, s/he is a part of you. That's what I mean when I say that by in large JRPG's are not RPG's.

 

[UBERfionn]

Your 100% right in my book.

It's about making and ROLE PLAYING your character.
JRPG's are not RPG's for that reason.

May I remind you that JRPGs were around long before the modern RPG? Maybe modern RPGs should just get a new name, like "Games that promise you will change the world your in but end up having extremely subtle and slightly disappointing changes", yeah, I think that works. The point of an RPG is not to shape the world around you, it's simply a game in which you can upgrade character stats and customize things like weapons, armor etc.

Have you ever played a tabletop RPG?
It's not just about the stats and equipment on the piece of paper. It's about Role playing. This guy on this sheet is you in the world created by the DM/GM. There is a connection between you and the character that is hard to define, but that is what makes an RPG.
Not the combat style, not the menus and not the exp.

 

[UBERfionn]

Choosing your Materia placement in Final Fantasy VII is no more or less role-playing than choosing who to save in Mass Effect.

In mass effect you felt not only for Shepard but also THROUGH him/her. In FFVII even if you feel for the character there is and extra step missing to make the connection that YOU are this awesome person, that you are doing these things and they are happening to you.

I understand the difference, but you're still focused on "being the character" as the only aspect of an RPG. It's not. It's only part of it.

You are right; that is a fundamental difference between the two styles. If "being the character" was the only aspect that defines an RPG, you'd be right. But it's not, it's only one aspect of an RPG, the absence of which does not disqualify a game from the genre.

Though I would also argue that the feel of being the character is a general property of video games as a storytelling medium, regardless of role-playing. That's what makes them so great.

It's hard to define the difference between between the connection felt in different game types but they are there.
I'm trying to be overly hard on JRPG's (they just present such an easy target) but they by in large are not RPG's.

Yes "being the character" is only part of it, but it is the main part, the part that defines it as different to other genre's. Modern warfare is not an RPG even though you play first person as the character because it lacks the connection. It would be possible to make a CoD game that was an RPG. I can see so many way's that it could work. It wouldn't even need menu's and exp, just the right kinda story telling.

 

[Sleepaphobic]

It all depends on one's own interpretation of the term "RPG". ME can be called an RPG but it is so basic and a very stripped down form of an RPG in the traditional sense. Maybe the term should not be interpreted literally, that's what I think at least.

I think making decisions doesn't automatically make a game an RPG. CoD would be an RPG as I can choose to use this gun or do smthg a certain way. What's the difference between that and being evil or good in a story?

Dragon Age, now that is what you call an RPG. Bioware can make a great RPG but for some reason they really feel like dumbing down a game, oh wait, I meant streamlining is the way to go now. Lets cut the inventory and give the player pretty much no variation in the weapons, lets also make it stupid easy on anything other than the hardest diffuclty. I think Bioware are going the wrong way, games should become deeper not shallower than a puddle.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I read the first four paragraphs, if you're a good writer I should be able to get away with only reading the first.

What kind of excuse is that?

"Oh, I'm sorry, good sir, but I could only be bothered to read part of your argument before I decided to respond in full without being fully informed. Well, it is your fault after all. Any good writer would only put his full opinion in the first four paragraphs and then leave the other five as pointless padding!"

 

[HellsingerAngel]

snip

snip again

Alright. This is getting out of hand. You both clearly have some experience with role-playing games as a genre, but you're missing one key factor in your argument: we're talking about different cultures! I've already discussed this in a previous threads as to why JRPGs are still RPGs, so I'll link it here, but reitterate my argument just for the fun of it: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.187403.5734058

The problem with your argument is not that either of your opinions are wrong, it's that the foundation of your argument is based solely on one societies views on what role-playing really is. You're taking the western definition and assuming it's the same as the eastern definition, which it isn't. Role-playing, whether video game or pen and paper, is seen as vastly different, but still similar, in both American and Japanese culture.

For Western culture, let's take a look at D&D. As many people have stated, D&D is a game based around character customization. You lay out your statistics, most likely involving stat scores, class choice, special feats, abiltiies and so on. You also get to pick your looks, so that you can feel a little more connected with your character. Finally, you can pick their personality, which in modern WRPGs is represented by the choice systems imbedded in the games. So, by Western definition, Mass Effect surely is an RPG game.

Now, I did say Japanese culture does look at role-playing a little differently, so I'll cover that now. My only real, in depth-experience with a Japanese role-playing game is one called Tenra Bansho Zero. It's a japanese developed pen and paper game that strays wildly from D&D in how it's played, but looks a lot like the JRPGs we know and love. You do still get to pick your class and they are very familiar with cyborg ninja, children piloting mecha with soul gems and samurai with demons infused into their bodies to enhance their strengths, as any sci-fi game from Japan would be like. The major difference is how it's played. Once you get rolling, you realise that you have very little control over your character, apart from their dialogue. Choices are all made for you through dice rolls and you whimsically are pulled from one scenario to another, trying to best act out your character as possible. It feels more like an improntu Kabuki Play than anything, which is kinda fun if you like being a thespian, but terrible if you're a control freak or min/maxxer. Combat is limited, usually, because the story being told by the Game Master is far more important to this type of role-playing.

Now, I'm not saying either choices are wrong. Different cultures act out role-playing differently, but there is one main tie that binds the genre together: story. Yes, I know it sounds cheesy, but in this day and age, where game stories have gone far beyond the simplicity of "save the princess" or "go kill Dracula", story is the link that RPGs have in common. I'm not just talking about the 10 hour "drive-in movie" sort of story, either. I'm talking about the "400 page novel" type of stories that only RPGs have the time to share. Story has always been a forefront in the genre and it couldn't be more apparent than now when other gameplay styles are starting to leak into our RPGs. As bad as it sounds, an RPg is most easily defined by its length of gameplay, demanding 40+ hours to complete and weaving a story of excellence through an expanding universe of character. The world is alive, unlike some games where the world is simply just there to provide a unique backdrop or some sort of gameplay mechanic that's interesting. Does this make games like Heavy Rain and The Legend of Zelda RPGs? Yes, it does. Do they have statistic blocks to customize your characters? No, they don't. However, they are certianly far closer to the ideals of Japanese role-playing than any Final Fantasy has ever been, which is strange and twisted in a way.

In any case, I hope this clears a few things up for you guys. I hope someday everyone can see JRPGs and WRPGs are all RPGs, just from different cultural backgrounds.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

Had a nasty feeling this would end up double posted. Sorry guys =)

 

[scythecow]

I'd call Mass Effect an RPG with third-person shooter elements. Yeah it's a hybrid, almost every game now is somehow a hybrid of the old classic genres. Not everything in the game is purely RPG elements, but more than anything else that's what it is. It should be safe to just say it's an RPG. What else could the focus possibly be?

Most of the fun in the game is in the dialogue and choices. Especially when it's with your own party. The freedom is fun, but no matter what you do and say it probably won't have a huge influence on your ability to get through the game.

For progressing through the game, the most important things are experience management and item management. Even when you're on the hardest difficulty there's relatively little strategy or skill involved in the actual combat. Spending skill points badly or making terrible financial choices can severely impact how hard combat is for you. It's not necessarily because you suck at the combat, but perhaps because you made mistakes building your characters or they're under-leveled. Thus, the most important parts of combat are standard RPG elements.

More generally it's an action RPG. The third-person shooter part is just specifically that the perspective happens to be third-person and your way of dealing damage happens to be shooting. Well, obviously!

If it was mostly with swords and the camera was moved to a fixed overhead view and they'd probably call it an overhead action RPG. It would still matter more how strong your character was and how strong your sword was than how well you mash the sword swinging button.

ME is a lot like Dragon Age Origins and Oblivion and Fallout 3. The combat system isn't very strategic like your standard JRPG, but it's an RPG. ME is only as much of a 3rd person shooter as FO3 is an FPS. They're all RPGs more than anything else even if combat is different in all of them. You level up and you power up your character(s). It's important! The hybridization is what makes it confusing, but they're all dice rolls and a leveling/stats system at the core.

Even if the story was only on par with the original Dragon Quest or something, if everything else was the same it's still an RPG before anything else. It's just an RPG with a weak story, of which there are many.

And yeah, you're playing the role of a character, but you're doing that in every game. Even if you're a mysterious unnamed force, you're a character. In Doom, you're a space marine. If you could change the space marine's gender and have conversations with the demons it would still be an FPS. The development and freedom in that character don't have anything to do with it being an RPG or not.

 

[Nazz3]

You didnt figure it out until now?

Its a space shooter with RPG elements.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

-snip-

I never mentioned JRPGs. I never argued against Zeithri's points other than asking him to calm down. So, why do you act so certain that you're telling me something I don't already know?

 

[HellsingerAngel]

-snip-

I never mentioned JRPGs. I never argued against Zeithri's points other than asking him to calm down. So, so why do you act so certain that you're telling me something I don't already know?

You're the OP and I find that the OP should know what's going on in their thread, and I quoted you to take a look at my post, as I believe it was well thought-out and answers your question as to what makes an RPG. The fact that I also quoted Zeithri was simply because that user is spouting a bunch of "JRPGs aren't RPGs" stuff. Sorry, I suppose my first paragraph is worded funny and makes it sound like you were arguing against eachother. I've just noticed a lot of JRPG bashing and a lot of contention as to what makes an RPG, which most people keep yelling "playing a role!" when in reality, it isn't and never was even with P&P back in the good old days. Not enough sleep makes arguments blur together, I suppose, but I thought you might find the information interesting? There are very few people that have looked into Japanese P&P, that is all.