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TheMysteriousGX

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God, I love it when somebody comes in and says The Left is Neo-Liberal Third Way Reaganite Dems.

A group of people solidly to the right of Eisenhower on economic policy and the military-industrial complex. Most of them are venture capitalists and/or landlords, with a new app to rent to means test our way to victory.

Which, hey: if we're playing Team Games now, beats Team Right's "drive the undeserving into the wilderness" plan.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Preferring a lesser evil doesn't make them my "team"; I dislike the Democrats and would drop them like a sack of shit if a better, credible alternative came along.



If you can't offer something at the current price point... then there's your problem.

Healthcare and education are both structured in such a way as to maximise costs. Its in their very foundation. Hence why the US spends more on healthcare than most other countries, yet still receives abysmal coverage lagging behind those same countries. Address the structural price gouging, invest properly. Other countries do this. Its perfectly possible.
Democrats aren't the less evil though, they keep passing policy that makes things worse. Just because they sound like they have good intentions (genuinely or not), doesn't make them less evil if good intentions results in people being worse off.

The issue with college is that they aren't teaching anything worth a damn, not the investment into it. I don't know how you think investing even more into it would fix anything but make it more costly and just continue the downward spiral. College just makes you waste years of your life learning pointless things, paying more money than you need to, delaying your ability to start making money, which holds you back from saving money to buy bigger purchases like houses; say college is 10K a year and you have to go 4 years instead of 2 years (that's 20K more you have to pay/loan) and then that's probably at least 60K (30K/year say) you're out because you didn't work those 2 years already because school is twice as long as it should be so in essence, that's 80K you're out early on in your life (and that's probably the very low end too as I'm guessing college is more than 10K/year on average and 30K/year for a job is pretty low).
 

Silvanus

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Democrats aren't the less evil though, they keep passing policy that makes things worse. Just because they sound like they have good intentions (genuinely or not), doesn't make them less evil if good intentions results in people being worse off.
I have yet to see a single area in which the Republicans' proposals are preferable to the Democrats'.

The issue with college is that they aren't teaching anything worth a damn, not the investment into it. I don't know how you think investing even more into it would fix anything but make it more costly and just continue the downward spiral. College just makes you waste years of your life learning pointless things, paying more money than you need to, delaying your ability to start making money, which holds you back from saving money to buy bigger purchases like houses; say college is 10K a year and you have to go 4 years instead of 2 years (that's 20K more you have to pay/loan) and then that's probably at least 60K (30K/year say) you're out because you didn't work those 2 years already because school is twice as long as it should be so in essence, that's 80K you're out early on in your life (and that's probably the very low end too as I'm guessing college is more than 10K/year on average and 30K/year for a job is pretty low).
All I really take from this is that you don't see the value of higher education.

But considering how poor your scientific and political comprehension is, that doesn't really reflect badly on higher education.
 

Ag3ma

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The issue with college is that they aren't teaching anything worth a damn, not the investment into it. I don't know how you think investing even more into it would fix anything but make it more costly and just continue the downward spiral. College just makes you waste years of your life learning pointless things, paying more money than you need to, delaying your ability to start making money...
I agree with you to a certain extent. It is very likely that degrees are excessive for at least some of the people getting them, and shorter, cheaper alternatives may be beneficial and well worth society looking at. Part of the issue might be that education operates as a "signal", and this can then go through inflation. Students get a degree to set themselves above school leavers, but with so many getting degrees they then need a higher degree (Masters) to set themselves up another rung, and so on.

Anyway, where is there a problem here: who's paying to train people, then?

Degrees indicate a certain amount of ability and hard work, never mind a plethora of transferable skills (computer use, communication, writing, etc.) that are in demand. That's even if the subject isn't relevant to their degree, and of course it often is. Lower level qualifications may lack this level of discrimination.

You are then asking corporations to take this on - fewer or lower qualifications to assess candidate quality (and their staff impact the quality of their operations), and potentially to train them up in a lot of skills, which costs the companies money. Apprenticeships mostly went the way of the dodo for this reason: why does an employer want to take the risk and expense? Not least because in an era where it's no longer a "job for life" and people frequently change employer, an employer trains someone only for that person to take those skills elsewhere.

Scrapping degrees, or drastically reducing them, is thus not as easy as you might think because it's not just a HE issue, it goes all into employment, workforce and corporate issues too: it's a major headache that requires a lot of joined-up thinking and societal consideration, with a lot of competing interests at play. One might argue just let the market decide in a capitalist economy: if higher education is a "bubble", do nothing and let there eventually be a crash.
 

Satinavian

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Degrees indicate a certain amount of ability and hard work, never mind a plethora of transferable skills (computer use, communication, writing, etc.) that are in demand. That's even if the subject isn't relevant to their degree, and of course it often is. Lower level qualifications may lack this level of discrimination.
Well, theoretically you could copy Germanys vocational training system for nonacademic careers that has it roots in medieval trade guilds with their apprentice-journeyman-master system. Then you would have something to judge qualification for all those hands-on jobs.

But it turns out that nonacademic workers with proven abilities, status in the society and pride in their trade do want proper pay as well and having them organize themself in modern day trade guilds gives them collective bargaining power not much different from unions. So that won't happen in the US.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I have yet to see a single area in which the Republicans' proposals are preferable to the Democrats'.



All I really take from this is that you don't see the value of higher education.

But considering how poor your scientific and political comprehension is, that doesn't really reflect badly on higher education.
Republican proposals aren't basically let's not do this bullshit. Or just compare say Houston to San Francisco.

I don't find value in bullshit. Or are you talking about in the long run you'll make more money? If higher education is so great and valuable, why is everyone bitching about not being able to pay their student debt? How they can't afford houses or kids?

I don't have scientific comprehension... You guys keep saying XYZ works with no proof of it working, but I'm the one that doesn't know science...? Sure thing. And you keep proposing solutions that just don't work on basic logistics.

I agree with you to a certain extent. It is very likely that degrees are excessive for at least some of the people getting them, and shorter, cheaper alternatives may be beneficial and well worth society looking at. Part of the issue might be that education operates as a "signal", and this can then go through inflation. Students get a degree to set themselves above school leavers, but with so many getting degrees they then need a higher degree (Masters) to set themselves up another rung, and so on.

Anyway, where is there a problem here: who's paying to train people, then?

Degrees indicate a certain amount of ability and hard work, never mind a plethora of transferable skills (computer use, communication, writing, etc.) that are in demand. That's even if the subject isn't relevant to their degree, and of course it often is. Lower level qualifications may lack this level of discrimination.

You are then asking corporations to take this on - fewer or lower qualifications to assess candidate quality (and their staff impact the quality of their operations), and potentially to train them up in a lot of skills, which costs the companies money. Apprenticeships mostly went the way of the dodo for this reason: why does an employer want to take the risk and expense? Not least because in an era where it's no longer a "job for life" and people frequently change employer, an employer trains someone only for that person to take those skills elsewhere.

Scrapping degrees, or drastically reducing them, is thus not as easy as you might think because it's not just a HE issue, it goes all into employment, workforce and corporate issues too: it's a major headache that requires a lot of joined-up thinking and societal consideration, with a lot of competing interests at play. One might argue just let the market decide in a capitalist economy: if higher education is a "bubble", do nothing and let there eventually be a crash.
I didn't say to get rid of degrees, but let people go to college to actually learn the thing they want to learn vs all the bullshit of a "well-rounded" degree. A bachelor's should be 2 years easy. Over half my classes were pointless or stuff you're supposed to learn in high school. The class I learned the most in was the A+ certification class and that wasn't even part of my degree program. People don't have to be trained too much for most jobs, they need to have a basic understanding of something and then the company teaches you the rest/specifics of the job. Ford teaches their employees to be electricians vs hiring them because they get to teach them exactly what they need to be taught. The skills you listed should be taught in high school like computer use (I learned office software in high school over 20 years ago so unless high school has become worse...), communication, writing. Why would one need to hire someone with a bachelor's degree to do office work using say Word, Excel, Outlook, etc? It's why experience is the most important thing when hiring, you'd rather have someone with like 2 years experience in the job field vs someone with a masters with no experience. There's certain jobs that need a lot of prior learning but that's maybe 10% of jobs at most.

There is probably gonna be a crash with the next generation considering the current generation is greatly disillusioned with college (drowned in debt and can't buy houses) and they will probably tell their kids not to go because it's pointless. Even the new South Park pointed out the uselessness of college.
 

Silvanus

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Republican proposals aren't basically let's not do this bullshit. Or just compare say Houston to San Francisco.
Still just looking at the homelessness rate in an area, and the way that area votes, and assuming causation?

I don't find value in bullshit. Or are you talking about in the long run you'll make more money? If higher education is so great and valuable, why is everyone bitching about not being able to pay their student debt? How they can't afford houses or kids?
Higher education is valuable because it deepens your understanding of the topic and improves your skills. You seem to only ever focus on the monetary value of something. Education and the professional improvement that comes from it are virtues in themselves.

I don't have scientific comprehension... You guys keep saying XYZ works with no proof of it working, but I'm the one that doesn't know science...? Sure thing. And you keep proposing solutions that just don't work on basic logistics.
People do provide you with evidence, over and over again. You either misread it or dismiss it on a minor quibble, then pretend you were never given it in the first place.
 
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Ag3ma

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...but let people go to college to actually learn the thing they want to learn vs all the bullshit of a "well-rounded" degree. A bachelor's should be 2 years easy. Over half my classes were pointless or stuff you're supposed to learn in high school. The class I learned the most in was the A+ certification class and that wasn't even part of my degree program. People don't have to be trained too much for most jobs, they need to have a basic understanding of something and then the company teaches you the rest/specifics of the job. Ford teaches their employees to be electricians vs hiring them because they get to teach them exactly what they need to be taught.
Okay. But every job is different. A college course is broad-based because the aim is to prep you for multiple options and career paths, otherwise you walk out with limited options: that's bad for you and bad for companies that may find insufficient people trained in what they want. If you get trained how to do a job at Ford, that's great for a job at Ford and less so anything else.

College courses are also there to some extent to teach you how to be an independent learner. It's more than just monkey see monkey do. Research skills, independent study, concepts of how to do things rather than just the doing of things. This (in theory) should make it easier for you to pick things up on whatever job you go for when the company teaches you the specifics, and to adapt what you see and do to improve it.

The skills you listed should be taught in high school like computer use (I learned office software in high school over 20 years ago so unless high school has become worse...), communication, writing. Why would one need to hire someone with a bachelor's degree to do office work using say Word, Excel, Outlook, etc?
You don't need people with degrees just to use basic office apps. But degree level jobs tend to require extensive use of office and technical software packages. The average postdoctoral researcher does not have a secretary to type up their scientific papers and a technician to do the number-crunching on Excel / SPSS / etc.

And you can talk about how kids should learn this stuff at school all you like, but kids keep pitching up at university deficient in these skills, so universities have to get them up to standard (this is also why early year material overlaps with school material as you complained about, because some students didn't do the relevant subjects at school or don't remember what they were taught). The other thing to get is that these skills all have levels. When you write a final year degree essay, it needs to be a higher standard than an end of school essay. If you then go on to do a doctorate, you'll find out just much you need to develop your writing skills from bachelor's level.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Still just looking at the homelessness rate in an area, and the way that area votes, and assuming causation?



Higher education is valuable because it deepens your understanding of the topic and improves your skills. You seem to only ever focus on the monetary value of something. Education and the professional improvement that comes from it are virtues in themselves.



People do provide you with evidence, over and over again. You either misread it or dismiss it on a minor quibble, then pretend you were never given it in the first place.
And cost of living, crime, zoning, etc.

The only thing I found useful (and not towards learning a "work" skill) in college that wasn't my core curriculum was philosophy. All the other electives I was forced to take I literally learned that shit in high school. How is that improving my understanding of the topic? That is wasting my time and money. And, again, you can learn whatever you want on your own far more efficiently than going to college but then you can't really put that on your resume.

Nope, I'm literally still asking for evidence that lockdowns or masks work... Hint: It's because that evidence doesn't exist.

Okay. But every job is different. A college course is broad-based because the aim is to prep you for multiple options and career paths, otherwise you walk out with limited options: that's bad for you and bad for companies that may find insufficient people trained in what they want. If you get trained how to do a job at Ford, that's great for a job at Ford and less so anything else.

College courses are also there to some extent to teach you how to be an independent learner. It's more than just monkey see monkey do. Research skills, independent study, concepts of how to do things rather than just the doing of things. This (in theory) should make it easier for you to pick things up on whatever job you go for when the company teaches you the specifics, and to adapt what you see and do to improve it.



You don't need people with degrees just to use basic office apps. But degree level jobs tend to require extensive use of office and technical software packages. The average postdoctoral researcher does not have a secretary to type up their scientific papers and a technician to do the number-crunching on Excel / SPSS / etc.

And you can talk about how kids should learn this stuff at school all you like, but kids keep pitching up at university deficient in these skills, so universities have to get them up to standard (this is also why early year material overlaps with school material as you complained about, because some students didn't do the relevant subjects at school or don't remember what they were taught). The other thing to get is that these skills all have levels. When you write a final year degree essay, it needs to be a higher standard than an end of school essay. If you then go on to do a doctorate, you'll find out just much you need to develop your writing skills from bachelor's level.
What percentage of jobs do you think requires more than 2 years of college to learn (the proper foundation for)? Ford trains their people to be actual electricians. They have to pass the tests that all electricians do so they can leave Ford and can work elsewhere. It's just more efficient than the normal way of becoming of an electrician because they cut out all the bullshit. We wrote essays in high school and did research. I never learned a damn thing about actually researching in college, they just made you write pointless papers. All the new hires we get have no idea how to actually do anything. IT is literally about researching and troubleshooting and it's amazing how little skill people have in that area.

And you can get taught that extra stuff when you get hired. Why would you have to be taught how to use all the bells and whistles in Excel when even if you get a job that needs just a bell and a whistle, you'll forget it because you don't see the use of it at the time and just get inundated with it all? Then when you get hired, you either need someone to help you or you need to google it and relearn it yourself anyway. I magically started getting As on college papers when I got Ds on research papers in high school. I remember my college English class where half the class dropped after the 1st paper (only grades were 3 papers during the semester) and I got a 99 (and then same on the other papers), I honestly don't even know how they were graded because I got Ds in high school and it's not like I took some writing class to get better at writing. I think she just graded on being able to properly use citation styles like APA or MLA.
 

Silvanus

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And cost of living, crime, zoning, etc.
But can you actually draw a credible connection between these factors worsening and Democratic policy?

The only thing I found useful (and not towards learning a "work" skill) in college that wasn't my core curriculum was philosophy. All the other electives I was forced to take I literally learned that shit in high school. How is that improving my understanding of the topic? That is wasting my time and money. And, again, you can learn whatever you want on your own far more efficiently than going to college but then you can't really put that on your resume.
Kinda just sounds like you had a pretty poor course.
 

BrawlMan

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Please do not insult your fellow forum users - one week single-thread suspension issued
@Silvanus & @Ag3ma, forget about Phoenix and his shit pit arguments. This is getting way off topic now, so let's focus people! Except for Phoenix, because he never focuses on anything and being a contrarian and sucking the genitals of other contrarians, fascists, racists, sexists, or all of the above.

BTW @Specter Von Baren, you spelled Maine wrong.

Now then, how about we actually get this back on topic and not disrespect the victims with arguments that go nowhere?

No shit Mr. Army man! What was your first clue?!

Some new Intel.



What is it with these dumbass cops waiting until the last minute or until the massacre happens, whenever these guys make these type of threats online?


Somewhat unrelated, but still important.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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@Silvanus & @Ag3ma, forget about Phoenix and his shit pit arguments. This is getting way off topic now, so let's focus people! Except for Phoenix, because he never focuses on anything and being a contrarian and sucking the genitals of other contrarians, fascists, racists, sexists, or all of the above.

BTW @Specter Von Baren, you spelled Maine wrong.

Now then, how about we actually get this back on topic and not disrespect the victims with arguments that go nowhere?

No shit Mr. Army man! What was your first clue?!

Some new Intel.



What is it with these dumbass cops waiting until the last minute or until the massacre happens, whenever these guys make these type of threats online?


Somewhat unrelated, but still important.
Autocorrect is a *****.
 

Phoenixmgs

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But can you actually draw a credible connection between these factors worsening and Democratic policy?



Kinda just sounds like you had a pretty poor course.
You think republicans put into place any of that policy in San Francisco? Wonder why Portland unanimously voted to no longer allow public drug use, you think a republican put that in place? Republican policy is largely just not doing the dem bullshit. During covid, dems are like let's lockdown, let's force masking, let's force vaccines, let's close schools and republican policy was literally let's not do any of that.

My computer courses were actually better at the community college vs Purdue. All electives but philosophy was pretty pointless because I learned it all in high school. I was forced to take physics but I already took physics in high school. I was even forced to take the class at Purdue that was the A+ class because it didn't transfer over for some reason, and I already had my A+ cert but they still made me take it again.
 

Silvanus

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You think republicans put into place any of that policy in San Francisco? Wonder why Portland unanimously voted to no longer allow public drug use, you think a republican put that in place? Republican policy is largely just not doing the dem bullshit. During covid, dems are like let's lockdown, let's force masking, let's force vaccines, let's close schools and republican policy was literally let's not do any of that.
So in short, no, you can't actually demonstrate a causal link. You've just got correlation.

My computer courses were actually better at the community college vs Purdue. All electives but philosophy was pretty pointless because I learned it all in high school. I was forced to take physics but I already took physics in high school. I was even forced to take the class at Purdue that was the A+ class because it didn't transfer over for some reason, and I already had my A+ cert but they still made me take it again.
Exactly as I said before: just sounds like you had a poor course.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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So in short, no, you can't actually demonstrate a causal link. You've just got correlation.



Exactly as I said before: just sounds like you had a poor course.
Democrats put into place XYZ policy, that policy directly causes higher crime, but that's just correlation?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You think republicans put into place any of that policy in San Francisco? Wonder why Portland unanimously voted to no longer allow public drug use, you think a republican put that in place? Republican policy is largely just not doing the dem bullshit. During covid, dems are like let's lockdown, let's force masking, let's force vaccines, let's close schools and republican policy was literally let's not do any of that.
Excepting the Trump administration doing all of those things, considering all of them happened during his fucking term on orders from his government
 
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Silvanus

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Democrats put into place XYZ policy, that policy directly causes higher crime, but that's just correlation?
That would be causation. But you haven't provided the middle bit, that establishes cause. Without that bit you've just got correlation.
 

Ag3ma

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I never learned a damn thing about actually researching in college, they just made you write pointless papers.
And you know what I have to say about that?

That's your degree. Your learning experience and your responsibility. It's up to you to make something of it, and if you chose not to do so then unless there was something objectively deficient in your degree (i.e. the sort you could sue them for) it's your problem and your fault. Or of course that you just picked the wrong course, and that's also your fault.
 

Eacaraxe

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That's your degree. Your learning experience and your responsibility. It's up to you to make something of it, and if you chose not to do so then unless there was something objectively deficient in your degree (i.e. the sort you could sue them for) it's your problem and your fault. Or of course that you just picked the wrong course, and that's also your fault.
Okay, I just have to point out you're responding to a post -- written without a shred of irony -- that literally says "I never learned a damn thing about actually researching in college, they just made you write pointless papers." This is like saying "I never learned a damn thing about driving in driver's ed, they just made you push pedals and turn a wheel."

But I mean, he's talking about Purdue, so I get it. Purdue is a giant pile of shit surrounding an engineering and agriscience school. Kind of like how Notre Dame is a giant pile of shit that bribes its way to high rankings, that pretends it still has a good football team by hiding from the Big Ten and SEC.

So anyways, guns. Insert my rote "guns aren't the problem, the US being a third-world shithole with delusions of grandeur and a massive nuclear arsenal is the problem" post here. At this point I'd just be quoting my older posts about this with citations and statistics, so just forum search if you want to see what I'd just be repeating here. Key points include "we have the Gini coefficient of a third-world shithole" and "comparative violent and gun-related crime rates only apply if you're comparing the entire world, and not just Europe, Australia, and select east Asian countries as most anti-gun liberals (hypocritically) do".