maybe there DOES need to be copy protection on games

[Nigh Invulnerable]

The only protection I have right now as a customer, is piracy, and try before you buy.

Seriously, man? That's a pathetic argument. Your only "protection" is piracy? We all know adverts are meant to promote, so read reviews, look on forums, get user feedback before you buy. Hell, isn't that the entire point of half Escapist forums?

How's that sound? Sounds a hell of a lot better than saying "I have to steal to protect my investment."

How about developers give us halfway decent demo versions before we buy a game? That way I know if I'll like the way it plays before I invest $60 in a game that may be utter crap to me. Reading reviews, checking out forums, etc. can only take you so far. I've seen many positive reviews for games I thought were boring. Case in point, the Metal Gear Solid series. Everyone is all over Kojima and his 'epic' story, but I got tired of the formula during my play through of MGS 2. Everyone continued to rave and rant about the third and fourth installments, but I never forked out the dough because it was too much money for something I couldn't test out to see if they'd changed anything. Basically, developers need to let us test drive a game before we sink our money into it.

 

[The_Rev]

How about developers give us halfway decent demo versions before we buy a game? That way I know if I'll like the way it plays before I invest $60 in a game that may be utter crap to me. Reading reviews, checking out forums, etc. can only take you so far. I've seen many positive reviews for games I thought were boring. Case in point, the Metal Gear Solid series. Everyone is all over Kojima and his 'epic' story, but I got tired of the formula during my play through of MGS 2. Everyone continued to rave and rant about the third and fourth installments, but I never forked out the dough because it was too much money for something I couldn't test out to see if they'd changed anything. Basically, developers need to let us test drive a game before we sink our money into it.

You're right; the developers are at fault for a) not making good enough games (because if they did, no one would steal them) and b) not providing good enough demos, which would deter people from stealing because no one wants to steal a crappy game.

In that world, why would developers charge anything at all in the first place? In a perfect system, people would be able to get all the games for free, and if they liked it, contribute what they thought the game was worth. Only that's not what happens. For every honest gamer out there who does just that, there are 9 or 19 or 99 pricks who not only take it for themselves, but make it available for a few more.

Software piracy is the reason so many good companies have a hard time getting enough funding to develop games, to hire programmers and the rest of the staff to make a really good game. Everyone bemoans the EA Games of the world, and complains that innovation and creativity are being plowed under for bad titles that perpetuate a previously successful series. But those huge companies are best at making enough cash to fund PC games, and the little developers can't, because 99% of their finished product is being stolen.

So 3 reviews went on and on about how good it was, you bought it and thought it sucked. Don't blame your difference in taste for piracy, expand your search for information, man. Games aren't free.

 

[Johnmw]

DRM isn't limited to PC's either. It's on consoles in a lesser, but still annoying, way. If I were to say, buy a piece of DLC or Arcade title on XBL and got a new Xbox, only the account the item was downloaded with can use it when their online. While this is nothing in comparison to what PC players get, it still is really annoying the fact that I can't play Psychonauts because I got a new XBL account.

I agree. The 360 live download games are awesomoe and annoying in equal measure. My 360 RROD'D and was replaced i reclaimed my account and now can only play my downloaded live games when im online. Unfortunaly i live in student accomadation adn can only have one device plugged in at a time . So, i have to delve into the abyss of wires behind my big computer (GOD I HATE WIRES), rummage around, unplugging most of my peripherals due to my fists of ham, and unplug my network cable. All this because microshaft don't trust their customers with a game that cost £8.00

 

[Sparrow]

I'm not reading that, because there is no bitesized chunks, and I'm lazy. Therefore I shall comment on the title.

Yes, there does.

Or better yet, copy protection on the console itself. Or, copy protection that actually works anyway.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Copy protection was never a problem when it was just a Cd key/check its the manner in which it exists is the problem, you can spend as much money as you want but Razor1911 are still going to crack it anyway the other 99% of the population wouldn't even know what to do

 

[Twilight_guy]

*whistles* wow, lots of anti-protection people here. Anyways, protecting game data is a smart idea. It doesn't stop pirating but it does deter it. It also makes it so pirates need more skill to crack a game, which decreases the number of people who can do it and thus the number of pirated copies there will be. People hate DRM becuse it's an inconvience, okay. Let's go in a different direction, how about Valve's idea? http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php#CEG. There idea binds games to the consumer That seems less inconvenient, unless you wanted to pirate a game. I think we should be looking for a solution that protects games and doesn't limit access.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

How about developers give us halfway decent demo versions before we buy a game? That way I know if I'll like the way it plays before I invest $60 in a game that may be utter crap to me. Reading reviews, checking out forums, etc. can only take you so far. I've seen many positive reviews for games I thought were boring. Case in point, the Metal Gear Solid series. Everyone is all over Kojima and his 'epic' story, but I got tired of the formula during my play through of MGS 2. Everyone continued to rave and rant about the third and fourth installments, but I never forked out the dough because it was too much money for something I couldn't test out to see if they'd changed anything. Basically, developers need to let us test drive a game before we sink our money into it.

You're right; the developers are at fault for a) not making good enough games (because if they did, no one would steal them) and b) not providing good enough demos, which would deter people from stealing because no one wants to steal a crappy game.

In that world, why would developers charge anything at all in the first place? In a perfect system, people would be able to get all the games for free, and if they liked it, contribute what they thought the game was worth. Only that's not what happens. For every honest gamer out there who does just that, there are 9 or 19 or 99 pricks who not only take it for themselves, but make it available for a few more.

Software piracy is the reason so many good companies have a hard time getting enough funding to develop games, to hire programmers and the rest of the staff to make a really good game. Everyone bemoans the EA Games of the world, and complains that innovation and creativity are being plowed under for bad titles that perpetuate a previously successful series. But those huge companies are best at making enough cash to fund PC games, and the little developers can't, because 99% of their finished product is being stolen.

So 3 reviews went on and on about how good it was, you bought it and thought it sucked. Don't blame your difference in taste for piracy, expand your search for information, man. Games aren't free.

I never suggested games should be free, only that I should be allowed to try it out before I spend my cash. I understand that there's a huge team of people behind most games and they need to get paid, but if I keep getting games that aren't great and have no way of recovering that loss, then I'll find games for cheaper (free).

 

[The_Rev]

I can only say that there are tons of ways to get a decent idea of whether or not you'll like a game before spending cash on it, the absolute last of which should be stealing it. I tend to wait a few months after a game is released before buying it. That gives the developer a chance to release the first patch, and gives the boards time to get populated with talk about it's relative "goodness".

[edit] Absolutely nothing I say here is going to keep anyone from doing what they've either been doing or believe they have a moral right to do, I'm just throwing an opinion out there. Please forgive any rudeness on my part, I have a hard time with some of the above arguments defending piracy. I have no sympathy for the music industry, who has made a market out of screwing the artists, or the movie industry, who pay stars millions. But the gaming industry is different, populated with people just like you and I, gamers and programmers and bit-heads, who spend forever coding and compiling, working to create games they love and hope that others will as well. So when you pirate games, you're screwing the little guy, not some big-bucks bald money grubbing CEO.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

The only protection I have right now as a customer, is piracy, and try before you buy.

Seriously, man? That's a pathetic argument. Your only "protection" is piracy? We all know adverts are meant to promote, so read reviews, look on forums, get user feedback before you buy. Hell, isn't that the entire point of half Escapist forums?

How's that sound? Sounds a hell of a lot better than saying "I have to steal to protect my investment."

Adverts are there to twist the truth to entice you to buy. Previews are there to entice you to buy. Reviews are only allowed out after the fact, and forums and feedback only work after people have been suckered enough to purchase it in the first place. Considering developers only care about initial sales on opening week and they basically "forget" about the game to be ready for the next big thing is not my fault, and I as a consumer shouldn't have to suffer for it.

Since I am a PC game player, if I buy a game I cannot return it for a refund in any way shape or form for any reason. I'm stuck with it. Therefore, I "preview" a game before I buy it, much like taking a car for a test-drive. If I like it, I will buy it, much like a car. If there is something I dislike about a car, I can generally bring it back and exchange it or some such as well. Not only that, as a customer, I am generally protected by warranty vs. defects, something that I don't get from PC games with bugs and glitches.

Besides, there's no theft involved if they aren't losing a product, ergo stealing would be the wrong term to use.

 

[The_Rev]

You don't take the car off the lot and drive it around for a week before heading back to the dealership to pay for it, do you? Bad example, for sure, but paying for it after you take it doesn't make it right.

Adverts absolutely try and get you to buy it, and previews will make every effort to include all the good bits to try to whet your appetite. Reviews are NOT only allowed after the fact; a ton of reputable mags will only review finished code, and publish a review just post/prior to release, you just have to be aware of the reputation of the reviewer and make a choice. Forums and feedback are exactly what you should be reading before buying. If you don't, then you're the sucker that jumped the gun and believed the hype.

If you're too busy or impatient to do some research, and can't wait 30 days to buy a new release to get some info from a source you trust, then you deserve to be suckered. Unfortunately, every programmer, coder, and developer in the PC game industry has to pay for your laziness.

 

[Kstreitenfeld]

In theory gaming needs anti-piracy measures. In practice, all an anti-piracy measure becomes is an open invitation for pirates to crack it then use it as an excuse for piracy. Some companies like Stardock seem to realize this and think "OK, DRM is a waste of money that gives no return on investment, so let's just treat our customers decently and figure that we can't stop thieves anyway so it's not worth inconveniencing people who actually get their wallets out."

This. Not to mention that just because someone pirated a game, does not mean that they won't buy it. Many people pirate games just to try them out before they buy.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

If you're too busy or impatient to do some research, and can't wait 30 days to buy a new release to get some info from a source you trust, then you deserve to be suckered. Unfortunately, every programmer, coder, and developer in the PC game industry has to pay for your laziness.

Unfortunately, I'm supposed to pay for their laziness instead.

PC games don't follow the same "rules" as every other game system. I can't rent or return them. I can't return a faulty or shoddy product. How is this right? You haven't answered how I as a consumer am protected in advance of buying the product.

The system is borken right now, and piracy proves it. Piracy =/ theft. Right now it's protection from companies who take advantage of consumer ignorance. And DRM does nothing to prevent it.

 

[Nutcase]

NO, NO and TRIPLE NO!

Copy protection must be BANNED!

It can't be banned, but there is an argument for that copyright should not apply to anything encumbered with DRM.

Copyright equals giving creators of content a monopoly to benefit from the work. It is finite, meaning whatever is under copyright is meant to move into public domain at some point. The rationale for granting this monopoly is that it ultimately serves the public by promoting the creation of the content.

DRM consists of technical access measures designed to prevent access to the work. Laws like the DMCA have popped up in many Western countries which outlaw bypassing or removing said technical access measures, and there is no time limit for that. So while the (protected work + DRM) bits eventually move into public domain, it will forever be illegal to access. The public is not getting what it is supposed to in exchange of copyright monopoly; therefore, the monopoly should not be granted.

 

[The_Rev]

You haven't answered how I as a consumer am protected in advance of buying the product.

When you buy a car, the law gives you an out with the lemon law; if the car is a serious piece of crap, they take it back. But protecting you from a bad game? That's like saying you want to return a CD because you didn't like the music.

I'll answer your question for a third time: do your research, and if you don't like what you read/see/hear, don't buy it, or wait until it's at a price point where you deem it worth the cost. Sheesh, do we have to tattoo it on some body part to get the point across? All you've come back with is saying you don't trust anyone else's opinion, so you should have the right to pay nothing for any game up front, basically saying you'll only pay the dev/coders what you think it's worth after you've played it.

So go for it, pirate away, man. And guys like me will continue to pick up the slack for guys like you.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

You haven't answered how I as a consumer am protected in advance of buying the product.

When you buy a car, the law gives you an out with the lemon law; if the car is a serious piece of crap, they take it back. But protecting you from a bad game? That's like saying you want to return a CD because you didn't like the music.

So the law only works for one thing? If I buy something I don't like from Wal-Mart, I can return that too. If I don't like the service at McDonalds, I can do it, even after taking a chunk out of the burger. But if I don't like a game, or if it doesn't work for some reason, I'm stuck with it...Maybe they should fix the laws then...

I'll answer your question for a third time: do your research, and if you don't like what you read/see/hear, don't buy it, or wait until it's at a price point where you deem it worth the cost. Sheesh, do we have to tattoo it on some body part to get the point across? All you've come back with is saying you don't trust anyone else's opinion, so you should have the right to pay nothing for any game up front, basically saying you'll only pay the dev/coders what you think it's worth after you've played it.

The downloading is part of the research as they have given me no other recourse for such. Or maybe you are one of those that thinks Big Rigs is a quality game that those who bought it should be stuck with it, no matter what.

So go for it, pirate away, man. And guys like me will continue to pick up the slack for guys like you.

You can go ahead and think that if it helps you sleep better. Me, I want the system to change as it's broken, even though I've supported the system just fine. You can go ahead and pick up "my" slack, although there is nothing different from what I do than people buying from Gamestop...it equates to the same thing.

 

[The_Rev]

Man, you have an opinion, and I don't agree with it. You and I could go around and around for pages and pages, and it wouldn't change either of our opinions on this particular subject. So let's just let this dog lie, shall we?

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

Man, you have an opinion, and I don't agree with it. You and I could go around and around for pages and pages, and it wouldn't change either of our opinions on this particular subject. So let's just let this dog lie, shall we?

Done.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

OK, let's turn this around. If DRM doesn't work to deter pirates, what WOULD? I'm actually very interested in what people think about this.

I'm thinking Valve has got the right idea. Steam helps immensly with getting people cheap games quickly and easily, and it also means they can put a world-wide release into effect to placate places like Australia and Russia, who don't seem to get games until at least 12 months after their release date in the rest of the world for some reason. Discuss.

10 simple ways to do so. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/5961-10-Ways-to-Fight-Piracy]

Here's why the "I lock my doors at night and turn on the alarm" comparison/analogy doesn't work.

That shit actually works.

 

[razer17]

NO, NO and TRIPLE NO!

Copy protection must be BANNED!

i applaud you good sir.
but DRM only hurts us the paying user. basically every games has DRM, but they still get copied. the best, and only way i can think of, is to put really good multiplayer in. even then you can play on cracked servers.
Look at Spore. it had draconian DRM, but it was cracked on day one, and then became the most copied game of last year. does DRM work? clearly not.