I don't think I can watch jurassic park anymore...
I could do that once. I'm perfectly fine with it. When a hunter kills, they should always at least make use of what they kill, and I mean completely, the meat as food, the skin can be used as materials, even the bones can be fashioned into something useful. To not make use of everything disrespects the animal, it's why I don't see the problem with mechanically reclaimed meat. Sure we need to fix what goes in with it, but imagine how many more animals would have to die if we let that meat just go to waste, huh?
Y'know another thing that gets me on a slightly related note? How nature documentaries paint the hunting animals as evil and the prey as good. The hunter is only trying to eat, and the prey? Well, that's the way of the wild. They simply didn't run fast enough.
At least a damn tiger doesn't kill a deer simply to hang it's head on a wall...
We own some chickens and rabbits - and yes, we eat said chickens and rabbits (well, I eat the chickens, I don't really fancy rabbit meat).
But to your whole question of "Should meat eaters kill their own food" is say: no. That would pretty much set certain aspects of our society back a couple of thousands of years. The whole thing about buying stuff, is derived from trading stuff, which humans have done ever since we found out that some people are better at doing certain tasks than other people.
I will say, however, that I do not agree with the way certain animals are killed. About a year ago I had to edit a couple of montages of secret footage shot in a slaughterhouse. They didn't follow regulations and instead of instantly killing the animals (cows, in this case) with a blow to the head, they just slowly decapitated them where they stood, still alive. Not a pretty sight, not according to regulations and NOT how it should be done. We are omnivores and are supposed to consume a small amount of meat on a regular basis, but we've evolved to a state where we no longer have to chase after our meat, bite it in the neck and eat its intestines while it's still warm.
(Also, off topic, I never really understood vegetarians, even less vegans. Many of them I personally know say they do it because they respect nature, but nature made them omnivores, so isn't NOT eating meat and/or fish kind of disrespecting nature?)
WARNING:This is pretty much gonna be one of those self righteous, one sided, poorly written rants that have been done before, so feel free to ignore this and move on.
Let me start by saying that I was raised a vegetarian and have been a vegan for a few years, but what confuses a lot of people is that I'm not really anti-hunting. In fact, I respect those who hunt and kill animals for food far more than the average McDonald's customer. The reason for this is because the hunter at least understands the implications of his meal.
Many pro-meat advocates say that humans are omnivores and eating animals is part of the "circle of life", and I agree with this to an extent. The problem with this is that in the industrial age, we don't raise or prey on animals as much as we manufacture them. I know a lot of (usually female) people who say they'd never kill a chicken or a cow, yet they eat meat regularly. This is because they don't think of their burgers or chicken sandwiches as animals that were killed; instead, they think of them as delicious, cheap food that might have involved an animal at some point, "but it's already dead, so it's best not to think about it."
While it's not practical in modern times to slaughter your evening meal every day, everyone who eats meat should kill for their food at least once. If you can bring yourself to kill for food, then you have a stronger will than I do, and I have (almost) no problem with you eating meat. If you refuse to kill a cow, but demand 1$ Jr. Double Cheeseburgers, you're a hypocrite in denial, and I have no respect for you.
TL;DR: An animal was killed for you to have that sandwich, learn what it means to kill an animal.
EDIT: Just to clarify on a few things:
I said meat eaters should kill an animal at least once. That's my personal opinion; you can do whatever you want, not trying to force you to do anything.
The straw argument of "You should make an x before you use one." is ridiculous. We're talking about a process that involves the voluntary killing of something else, it's a bit different from wood carving/computer assembly ect... As far the "you should grow a plant before you eat one" argument goes: plants lack a nervous system and brain, so it's not really harming a plant to farm one, but for the record, I do have a decently sized vegetable garden in my backyard if it's any consolation.
It is true that every purchasing decision we make has implications we never see. Someone buys a pair of Nike sneakers, and they might have been made at a sweat shop that uses child labor; they just don't know or don't think about it. As a society, we need to learn more about the source of every product we buy, and make well informed purchasing decisions accordingly. I'm just arguing about the meat industry at the moment.
At the very least, you can learn about how animals are killed in factories via internet. It's not pretty, to say the least.
I've thought about this a lot, and frankly thinking about a chicken being murdered does not make it any less delicious. And I would kill for my food, but its pretty impractical.
I love that you reason away the murder and dismembering of vegetation as somehow morally superior to us omnivores. I also love that you suggest that we kill our food at least once, while most of us live in cities far removed from anywhere that would allow us to do so, let alone having the skills to catch prey in the wild. Because y'know we're more focused on petty things like IDK Science or furthering humanity, or jerking off or some such.
You seem to function on the basis that its somehow unnatural to eat meat, and that farming (or as you put it "manufacturing") is somehow wrong. You don't think for a second that a pig or a cow in a similar situation wouldn't do the same thing?
Actually, Human's can be pretty good to their prey. Compare our methods of killing to say the Komodo Dragon who waits for you to die a slow and agonising death by infection, or Snakes and Spiders who either eat their prey alive or bathe them in acid and drink them later. Most animals grow for the throat, not to cut the jugular or any major blood vessel, least not to let them bleed out, but to starve them of oxygen. Hold your breath for as long as you can. Imagine that, but with razor sharp teeth clenched around your neck. Pleasant? I thought not.
Yes, there is room for improvement. The point is, lets deal with some real issues like: free ranged vs caged or the little farmer being screwed over by the big corporation.
so if i want a steak, i have to go and kill a cow? that seems awfully wasteful, i mean i like steak, but i cant eat a cows worth, so the rest of that cows is going to waste, because others cant eat it, they didnt kill it. the
the kill what you eat mentality is flawed as one animal doesnt equal one meal for one person, the eat what you kill method will only lead to more dead animals
I agree with you to some extent, OP. I myself hunt and dont waste anything. But just eating elk, deer, duck and hare grows tiresome. And it isnt easy to live on what you sell from the hunt, even if it is for a high price. So naturally, I buy meat. Pig and cow, the cheapest two. But also chicken and turkey. I cant survive in the city by just going hunting whenever I feel peckish. I have to work for a living, and with the money I get, I buy food. Not just meats, but vegetables, rice, bread, everything I need to survive.
As far as Im considered, we are equal to all animals. We are animals. And as such, we are not above not eating them, as they do with others. And as for the argument that "Cows dont eat animals, why do we eat cows?" Well, that's just the circle of life. Some predators have no one but their own species to fight. You dont see anyone eat a lion, do you?
As for hunting for fun, Im not really sure what I think. It is silly, but if it is to keep the numbers of the species youre hunting or the species that species feeds on, I suppose it's okay. Still dont like the idea all that much.
And finally, as for those videos online where you see how animals are slaughtered? That's just the way it is. It's not more glorious when I gut a fish on the rocks with a knife. It's no more glorious when I skin an animal. But what I can agree on here is one thing: atleast I do it when theyve already passed on. Skinning or slaughtering a live animal is cruel, horrible and immoral. We are to show respect for our prey, and for our animal brothers. Pretty much all ancient hunter-gatherers had this down. I dont think theres any good reason for us not to.
The only animal I've killed and eaten was fish, if that counts.
This may reflect badly on me but the largest turnoff on killing an animal for me is not the act itself, but the mess I have to deal with associated with the act.
I should point out that I feel there is a world of difference between killing animals for food and killing animals most other reasons. I would have trouble killing an animal for sport.
edit: also as a side note, most people have not needed to kill their own for a very long time. That's how trade started, the existence of a meat dealer in a food market has been around for at least a couple thousand years, it's not a recent development. We're just so used to it now, that people don't consider where their ready made/prepared food came from. It's not 'right' or 'wrong', that's just the way it is.
No problem, just hand me that rake and stand well back, or bask in the glory of the meat dandruff and blood shower that you've now inflicted indirectly upon the animal of my choice 'cause I got a bit hungry.
I agree with your post in theory, but it's way too impractical and totalitarian.
That being said, what's your stance on medicine? All medicine is tested on animals before it's tested on humans. Should every person using medicine kill off an animal under the same circumstances as when they're put down after testing or not?
ummm how about we stay exactly how we are and vegans keep there opinions to themselves? just because you think you have moral highground dosent mean you do, and i love eating meat but i have no talent for hunting and killing, why should i hunt when there is someone who does it for you? the fact is humanity has done specialisation for over 40,000 years. not everyone hunted, and yet they all still ate meat. so i ask you this, should we scrap specialisation and have everyone as generic vegeterians? i think not!
I have a deep respect for some animals. Wolves, dolphins, elephants, basically most megafauna (100+ pounds).
But, have you ever met a chicken. They are stupid little balls of hate with no part in the circle of life, but to try to scratch up the things sustaining their lives. I fucking hate them and honestly want them all to go fuck off and die.
This is an animal so dumb they do drown in the rain. They are so fucking crazy that if you put too many in a pen, they assume there won't be enough food for all of them. Their conclusion: start fucking murdering each other in some kinda fucked up cage match. They also have simple brains that can be distracted by basically geometries to the point of paralization.
The moral of Moby Dick is that wishing revenge on an unthinking animal is pointless and existentially destroying. All I can say is Herman Melville must've never met a chicken because seriously
I have killed an animal to eat it. Done the whole nine yards too. Gutted it, skinned it and prepared it. Can't say it bothered me in the slightest but then again, I wasn't raised to think like a vegetarian or whatever. To be honest there was a sort of primitive pride in it so ye, thought I should just stick this in here.
You should be forced to grow your own food then. Thats your logic, dude.
Its way too impractical to force people to kill their food (and its retarded but thats a libertarian talking, so I'm all like "fuck government control and shit").
But you are right, this thread has been done before.
One rule for everyone as they say. I doubt that every vegan has either the means, the knowledge or the inclination to grow enough food to sustain their family for year, much less the practical ability to. And whilst I somewhat agree with the fact that people should know what it means to kill an animal for food it by no means should be a requirement.
Of course animals are manufactured for food, how else would we feed sooooooo many people. your vegtables are manufactured too, specifically and deliberatly grown for the purposes of being eaten. But no meat eating person would ever say, "oh, you should have to grow your own damned veg if you wanna eat it, see the real implications of your life choice."
And for the record, i've spent time fishing (depiste not particularly liking fish) and i've visited a slaughter house, smells kinda like a cheap butchershop.
Really it's up to each individual person what they do with their lives, I don't think there should be a requirement to eat meat, for one it would be a lot of extra work for governments to govern such a thing and for another regular people aren't trained in how to kill an animal humanely, they would probably cause the poor beast more distress than it otherwise would.
I will say I have killed, gutted and cooked* a rabbit before so im all good in your new world order.
[small]*Gutting and cooking was something I assisted in, the killing bit was all me though. it's remarkable how stupid rabbits are, you shine a light in it's eyes and it stops dead making it an easy target.[/small]
WARNING:This is pretty much gonna be one of those self righteous, one sided, poorly written rants that have been done before, so feel free to ignore this and move on.
Let me start by saying that I was raised a vegetarian and have been a vegan for a few years, but what confuses a lot of people is that I'm not really anti-hunting. In fact, I respect those who hunt and kill animals for food far more than the average McDonald's customer. The reason for this is because the hunter at least understands the implications of his meal.
Many pro-meat advocates say that humans are omnivores and eating animals is part of the "circle of life", and I agree with this to an extent. The problem with this is that in the industrial age, we don't raise or prey on animals as much as we manufacture them. I know a lot of (usually female) people who say they'd never kill a chicken or a cow, yet they eat meat regularly. This is because they don't think of their burgers or chicken sandwiches as animals that were killed; instead, they think of them as delicious, cheap food that might have involved an animal at some point, "but it's already dead, so it's best not to think about it."
While it's not practical in modern times to slaughter your evening meal every day, everyone who eats meat should kill for their food at least once. If you can bring yourself to kill for food, then you have a stronger will than I do, and I have (almost) no problem with you eating meat. If you refuse to kill a cow, but demand 1$ Jr. Double Cheeseburgers, you're a hypocrite in denial, and I have no respect for you.
TL;DR: An animal was killed for you to have that sandwich, learn what it means to kill an animal.
EDIT: Just to clarify on a few things:
I said meat eaters should kill an animal at least once. That's my personal opinion; you can do whatever you want, not trying to force you to do anything.
The straw argument of "You should make an x before you use one." is ridiculous. We're talking about a process that involves the voluntary killing of something else, it's a bit different from wood carving/computer assembly ect... As far the "you should grow a plant before you eat one" argument goes: plants lack a nervous system and brain, so it's not really harming a plant to farm one, but for the record, I do have a decently sized vegetable garden in my backyard if it's any consolation.
It is true that every purchasing decision we make has implications we never see. Someone buys a pair of Nike sneakers, and they might have been made at a sweat shop that uses child labor; they just don't know or don't think about it. As a society, we need to learn more about the source of every product we buy, and make well informed purchasing decisions accordingly. I'm just arguing about the meat industry at the moment.
At the very least, you can learn about how animals are killed in factories via internet. It's not pretty, to say the least.
As someone who lives in Suffolk, the most agricultural county in England, and goes shooting on a regular basis, and eaten said things which have been shot, (i.e. pheasant, rabbit, etc), this comes across as incredibly uneducated and downright hypocritical.
You say that you are a Vegan, yet, do you think that you take any notice of the implications of what you eat? And before you bring up your little inb4 in your post, do you understand the hardship that goes into growing everything which you eat? I'm gonna go ahead and say that you don't, because, if you did, you wouldn't be posting this ridiculous debate. It is backbreaking labour, hell, there's a reason the majority of the farmers I know are huge, musclebound, toned men. Because the work is intense, and, until you've done it, you can't apprieciate it, which is exactly what you've been saying about us meat-eaters, therefore, it is very condecending to expect other people to have to do things, which you yourself have not done.
Another thing, some people simply do not have the stomach for this kind of thing. A number of people, of both sexes, whom I know, would call me a monster for shooting that ikkle bunny wabbit that's oh so cute, yet oh so delicious. But I still do it. You know why? Because they are a pest, they destroy crops, we, as a country are inundated with them, because they breed like, well, rabbits, and because they taste good. Omnomnom.
I won't lie, I enjoy shooting. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt as much as a fox does. But then, as much as we all like to think differently, we are animals. Yet, I'll bet that, if I were to hand you a shotgun, ask you to point it at that woodpigeon, and fire both barrels, you couldn't. So stop asking other people to.
Yes, I think that everyone should be educated in where their food comes from, but they should not be asked to produce it.
(Btw, before you go attempting to pick my post to pieces, saying "oh you're a horrible excuse for a human being, you enjoy killing animals!", so do the majority of people who shoot and hunt. Also, there are some animals I refuse to shoot, such as hares, and, using hares as an example, I'll explain why. Rabbits, as already explained, are a pest. Vermin. there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, in the English countryside alone. They destroy crops and cost farmers thousands of pounds every year. Hares, are not. They were culled, many years back, to such an extent that they became rare. They do not destroy crops, and we are loath to see them. For every hate I spot, I'll see at least 500 rabbits. That is not an exaggiration. Therefore, I will shoot rabbits, but not hares.)
Bottom line, I don't kill. I eat. Someone who kills can kill for me, it's their job, long as I get my bacon.
Seriously, vegans and vegetarians always cry out for people not to be judgmental towards them. What they don't seem to realize is that IT HAS TO GO BOTH WAYS. Hypocrites, all of em.
We actually had this debate several months ago, and there were a lot of holes raised in it then.
Firstly, the entire reason our society has developed into the way it has is because we no longer need to take time growing our own food or hunting it. Also, for every vegetarian who cries 'you should kill an animal before you eat it,' I'd like to see them grow enough vegetables to feed themselves for the amount that my one animal could feed me for. If I kill a cow I have meat for many, many meals. I know from my father that growing vegetables is incredibly hard and demanding work, often with a payoff that isn't quite worth the effort you put in. I can kill a cow with very little work on my part, and then eat heartily, a vegetarian would expend more time and effort making their food than they would receive by eating it. Practice what you preach, then realise that doing so would result in you starving to death long before your first crop has even grown.
Secondly, does this become some sort of barbaric ritual? When should meat eating children kill their first animal? Should we hand little Johnny a bolt gun and a pig at age twelve and say 'go nuts son, otherwise you're going to have to be a vegetarian for life!'
Thirdly, vegetarians can basically fuck off as far as I'm concerned. Our planet could not even begin to hope to sustain us all if we needed to raise the ludicrous amount of crops we'd need for an all vegetarian diet. We eat meat for so many reasons, including that it's almost entirely biologically natural. You wouldn't expect a bear to suddenly become a vegetarian, or a baboon. Just because we have developed the ability for some sections of society (and also this is primarily a Western First World middle class thing) to be able to survive on only one type of food, there is no reason to start demanding things of the majority of the human race just to justify those few who feel somehow superior for eating fruit and nuts all the time.
I respect those who hunt and kill animals for food far more than the average McDonald's customer. The reason for this is because the hunter at least understands the implications of his meal.
Learn what it means to kill an animal.
Everyone who eats meat should kill for their food at least once.
As far the "you should grow a plant before you eat one" argument goes: plants lack a nervous system and brain, so it's not really harming a plant to farm one, but for the record, I do have a decently sized vegetable garden in my backyard if it's any consolation.
Some people who call themselves hunters don't understand the meaning, it needs to be taught. People do need to learn what it means to kill an animal. I learned what I know from my grandmother that the kill and the animal are sacred, use as much as possible. Also farming is a good skill to have but plants do have life.
My only grievance against you is that you cheapen life. You can not force everyone to kill at least one animal, you should teach but never force them to do anything, especially to learn that they must have a want for it.
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