men involved with domestic violence

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PeterMerkin69

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Thyunda said:
Why wasn't he in danger?
The worst thing that happened to him was the equivalent of someone bumping into him in a crowded area and even then he could have shut it down if he wanted to do so. Let me know when they release the footage of her doing something significantly worse than slightly displacing him.

Hey, maybe he lives 92 miles away from the nearest family member or friend and can't actually afford to leave, given that she paid for most of his possessions and he'll lose them on his departure.
Maybe he should have sold his Adventure Time memorabilia on eBay and bought a bus ticket to home, or gotten a job, or did something, anything, to help himself?

Maybe he feels pressured to stay and that he's with a girl he doesn't deserve and so he should be grateful she's even with him, and that a real man can handle the beatings. Maybe it looks consensual, but maybe he's just too trodden on to get back up.
If he can handle the beatings then it isn't a problem; if he values whatever he thinks is so special about her over his well-being then there isn't a problem. If he's too trodden to get back up then what difference does it make?
 

Suhi89

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I want to make a disclaimer before making this post. I am all for feminism. Equality between the sexes is a no brainer. Feminism has done fantastic things for raising the conciousness around DV against women. If you are a feminist and the below doesn't apply to you, I'm not attacking you. #notallfeminists.

Unfortunately it is undeniable that the mainstream feminist movement has been terrible with the issue of DV against men. I don't think it bares any responsibility for the actual violence, but it does actively work against male victims (and also female victims of female abusers). Most feminist understanding of DV is based around the Duluth model, which according to Wikipedia,

"As of 2006, the Duluth Model is the most common batterer intervention program used in the United States."

It defines the Duluth model as

"based on a second wave radical feminist theory positing that "domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners""

There is literally no space for either Male victims or female abusers in that statement, which, given the statistics of female abusers and male victims shows that there is a fundamental flaw.

Moving onto specific organisations, I'm English so I'm going to raise 3 DV charities and what they say about the subject. Starting with Refuge, one of the biggest DV charities (and avowadly feminist). Under the Refuge logo, it says the following,

"For Women and Children. Against domestic Violence"

Again, ignoring male victims entirely. Under the About Domestic Violence section it says the following.

"Domestic violence is the result of an abuser?s desire for power and control. Women are considered less important by many in our society and this creates an imbalance of power between the sexes.

As a result male abusers are too often allowed to get away with their actions."

But at least it does mention male victims lower down the page...

"Although men can be abused too, the statistics show that in most cases it is women who are abused.

· One in four women is abused during her lifetime.
· One in nine is severely physically abused each year.
· Two are killed each week ."

Oh, ok, so if you're a male victim, we don't care because you're in the minority. This seems to be bourne out of the statistics but the male victim minority is much higher than this seems to imply. An intersting aside on Refuge. It was the charity first started by Erin Pizzey who, again from Wikipedia,

"Pizzey said that militant feminists?with the collusion of Labour's leading women?hijacked her cause and used it to try to demonise all men, not only in Britain, but internationally... Pizzey says that it was after death threats against her, her children, her grandchildren, and the shooting of her dog, all of which she states were perpetrated by militant feminists,"

She claims that the reason for those threats and attacks were that she dared to suggest that women could be abusers and men could be victims.

The next organisation is Women's Aid (a feminist organisation). In the About Domestic Violence section, we have the following

"The vast majority of the victims of domestic violence are women and children, and women are also considerably more likely to experience repeated and severe forms of violence, and sexual abuse. Women may experience domestic violence regardless of ethnicity, religion, class, age, sexuality, disability or lifestyle....The majority of abusers are men, but in other respects, they vary: ...Their behaviour may originate from a sense of entitlement which is often supported by sexist, racist, homophobic and other discriminatory attitudes. "

Not the word vast in that statement. Again, erasing male victims although again, the page gives them some lip service (even less than refuge however).

These aren't fringe movements. These are two of the biggest DV charities in the country and get millions in government funding. They are the 2nd and 3rd links on Google when you search for domestic violence. They flat out ignore 30-40% of victims and help perpetuate the harmful myth that men cannot be victims, that women cannot be abusers. There are mainstream feminist organisations, you have the feminist Duluth model, it's an unfortunate fact that mainstream feminism has actively held back the recognition of male victims and female abusers. Again, I repeat, not all feminists, but those who are in a position to actually influence policy. Sometimes these groups actively campaign against Male shelters (This is from memory. I will be happy to find sources for this if asked for, but Google should be able to help).

I want to end with this, because it made me really angry. Domestic Violence London is a website run by our NHS and the vast majority of the site gives advice to female victims. It does, however, have a section entitled "Domestic Abuse Against Men" Instead of giving advice to men who may be being abused and think they've found a resource for them, it says the following

"Domestic abuse is often talked about in a gendered manner, but it is important to recognise that men experience domestic abuse as victims too. Men's experiences are likely to be significantly different to women though.

The research that is available suggests that women are more likely than men to experience domestic abuse in their lives and to suffer repeated victimisation. They are also more likely to be injured, or have to seek medical help. Another difference is that men are less likely to be murdered by female abusers; Home Office figures reveal that on average, 100 women a year and around 30 men a year are killed within a domestic abuse context. Women are almost exclusively killed by men whereas in contrast approximately one third of the men are killed by other men and a little under a third are killed by women against whom they have a documented history of abuse."

I mean, so fucking what? This is the one small section on the website about DV against men, and it takes half the page essentially saying, yeah it happens but it's not as bad, look see you're a man so you may be being abused but women have it worse. I also believe that 100 women a year is incorrect but is often quoted.

For anyone who is interested in the subject, Ally Fogg writes very well on it (and he's generally pro feminism too). Also, it's worth reading the tragic story of Earl Silverman who is mentioned above.

Apologies for the length of the post. Should I have used quote tags? This is something I care about and it does make me angry to see so many victims just ignored or only given a passing mention. As said above, I'm pro feminism, but like any political movement ideology can get in the way of fact and this is one area where mainstream political feminism, unfortunately, has a blind spot.
 

FavouriteDream

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PeterMerkin69 said:
Look, women are physically weaker than men;
You want to fix that sentence? I know dozens of women who are just as strong if not stronger than the average male. I also know a bucket load of females who may not be stronger than men - but they are highly trained in martial arts and could kick most guys' ass.

Most women are physically weaker than most men. That is a factual statement. But you can't make huge blanket statements like yours and then expect to people to care about what you have to say.

PeterMerkin69 said:
he was in no danger of being overpowered by her and could have defended himself, but he chose not to.
So it isn't abuse if the victim is physically stronger than the abuser? Riiiiiiight.

That is so damn stupid I don't know where to begin.

Abuse almost always is more complicated than just physical tussles with each other. A lot of the time there is emotional abuse, manipulation, mind games, threats, black mailing and strategies that involve the victim being completely withered away emotionally.

This primitive belief that if you are stronger than someone then you aren't a victim is fucking deplorable. It's such ridiculous logic that is somehow accepted by people like you. Try to apply your logic to other crimes.


PeterMerkin69 said:
Despite his advantage, he shrank away like a cartoon elephant who caught a glimpse of a cartoon mouse. That, in and of itself, is enough to warrant laughter.
And what would have happened if he fought back, and pushed her onto the ground and physically restrained her?

The police would have been called. He would probably be arrested. No, he wouldn't be charged with anything because he could probably prove he was defending himself - but if he restrained her I guarantee someone would have jumped in and phoned the police, especially if she started screaming when he did so.

PeterMerkin69 said:
Moreover, men still wield more power in practically every society on Earth, so in the long run there's absolutely no reason for him to be in a situation like that. Even if he didn't 'have it coming,' it was 100% consensual. How do you NOT laugh at someone who does that to himself?
This is disgusting, awful rhetoric that enables all kinds of abuse. "They got themselves into this mess! It's not our fault!" is essentially what you are saying. Once again, I reiterate - things are more complicated than what you are making out and emotional abuse is the issue here.

PeterMerkin69 said:
That wasn't even domestic abuse, it was below the threshold of playful roughhousing.
Legally speaking, you're totally fucking wrong. If someone reported that and the police got enough evidence to prove it happened and the victim pressed charges then action would have been taken. Restraining orders, AVOs and even punishments could and would be given out to the abuser.

You are legally not allowed to forcefully touch anyone without their consent. If I come up to the street and push you, grab your head and shove you against a fence and scream at you - you have every right under the sun to press charges and the court system is legally obliged to deal with me.


PeterMerkin69 said:
To call it domestic abuse is an insult to victims of actual abuse.
Because grabbing someone, shoving them and yelling at them is totally okay!
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Suhi89 said:
I think much of the misunderstanding is that services for domestic violence against men and women must necessarily be separated, and treated separately due to the risks involved, greatly restricting resources available. The difference you see in the attention given is due to the scale of the severity of the violence. The vast majority of hospitalizations, serious injuries and deaths from violence are perpetrated by men, so that is the focus of the resources. With men overwhelmingly being the perpetrators of serious injury and deaths, and with the extreme shortage of resources to address this issue they consider that to be the biggest problem that has to be tackled and address that first. Many of the shelters are so overwhelmed they cannot even take women with children that do not show signs or have proof of injury such as hospital records, visible bruises, police reports ect. Not only men fall through the cracks due to this resource shortage, lesbians, emotionally abused men and women, and women and men who have been assaulted but do not show signs of injury(even if they are actually physically injured) often have very few options or resources.

I can understand why a "women's domestic violence" organization would only address women's issues, but I would think that a National domestic violence organization would address the whole spectrum. This applies to all victims:
http://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

I am not informed about the resources available in the UK, however, I can see the issue with the refuge site as it appears to be a "generic domestic violence site" yet, it only addresses women and children. When you look for men's help:
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/domestic_abuse/where_to_get_help
There does not even appear to have a 24 hour men's hotline for help. That definitely is an serious issue that needs to be addressed, there should always be a 24 hour help available. Yes, the resource distribution would necessarily allocate more resources to women's domestic violence, but to not have at least a 24 hour hotline is definitely a serious issue. Surely they could find enough University Student volunteers to allow for a men's hotline?
 

Pieturli

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I think it has to be pointed out that the average man is significantly stronger than the average woman. Testosterone is a hell of a drug. This is certainly not to say that women can't get strong, just that they tend not to start out as strong, or get as strong, as guy would if they both trained for strength. There are obviously exceptions to this, but again, I'm talking about averages. Anyways.



I think it is good that this stuff does get attention. Just about a year or two ago a man here in Finland was being attacked by his wife and called 112 (Finnish 911) and the operator basically laughed at him, and said "You're getting beat up by your old lady?". So yeah, this kind of thing does happen.
 

wulf3n

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NeutralDrow said:
Schadrach said:
NeutralDrow said:
Domestic and sexual violence perpetuated by any sex against any sex is a feminist concern,
...which is why it's not that hard to see feminists arguing against abused men having any services or in favor of excluding men who are forced into intercourse by women from counting as "raped", or who support "primary aggressor" (read: arrest the man no matter what) domestic violence policies?
This is a world where atheists can argue that religious people should be rounded up and shot for their own good, Christians can argue that gays should be stoned to death, wingnuts can suggest that the solution to all gun violence is to give everyone unregulated access to guns, and birth control advocates can suggest that the poorer classes should stop breeding entirely. It's not that hard to find an extreme position for any belief, regardless of their core, and not terribly surprising that people are going to claim whatever label they think applies to their extremity. No label is untainted, true Scotsmen be damned.

So unless you're outright accusing me, as a self-professed feminist, of arguing that men are the source of all evil and should be treated like second-class scum, I fail to see what your point is.
It's less about the extreme ends of the spectrum and more about the disingenuous nature of the assertion that domestic violence to any gender is a feminist concern.

While I don't doubt most feminists are against domestic violence in any form, domestic violence against men doesn't appear to be much of a concern.

I googled charity for victims of domestic violence and out of the first 10 websites I checked only 1 mentioned men at all.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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wulf3n said:
NeutralDrow said:
Schadrach said:
NeutralDrow said:
Domestic and sexual violence perpetuated by any sex against any sex is a feminist concern,
...which is why it's not that hard to see feminists arguing against abused men having any services or in favor of excluding men who are forced into intercourse by women from counting as "raped", or who support "primary aggressor" (read: arrest the man no matter what) domestic violence policies?
This is a world where atheists can argue that religious people should be rounded up and shot for their own good, Christians can argue that gays should be stoned to death, wingnuts can suggest that the solution to all gun violence is to give everyone unregulated access to guns, and birth control advocates can suggest that the poorer classes should stop breeding entirely. It's not that hard to find an extreme position for any belief, regardless of their core, and not terribly surprising that people are going to claim whatever label they think applies to their extremity. No label is untainted, true Scotsmen be damned.

So unless you're outright accusing me, as a self-professed feminist, of arguing that men are the source of all evil and should be treated like second-class scum, I fail to see what your point is.
It's less about the extreme ends of the spectrum and more about the disingenuous nature of the assertion that domestic violence to any gender is a feminist concern.

While I don't doubt most feminists are against domestic violence in any form, domestic violence against men doesn't appear to be much of a concern.

I googled charity for victims of domestic violence and out of the first 10 websites I checked only 1 mentioned men at all.
Violence against any gender IS a feminist concern. In the US, 90% of homicides are committed by men. Men are overwhelmingly killing more men and women. Feminist believe this is due to Patriarchy. Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
UK stats are not looking much better:
https://fullfact.org/articles/bad_and_dangerous_to_know_do_men_commit_almost_all_crime-28939

You also bring up a good point with the lack of charities for men. A huge obstacle for creating access to resources for male victims of domestic violence is finding men to donate their time and money to assisting other men. It is not that feminist do not care about male victims, it is that they lack the resources to provide for the women and children victims already and need men to also step up and volunteer their time as well. Men have to be available to assist other men, and sadly not that many men are willing to do so. Women can help men as well only to a certain extent, but just as you have "women's only" facilities, you need "men's only" facilities as well, and not enough men are stepping up to make that happen. Men are more likely to complain about not having the services, but less likely to step up and create them.

According to " feminism" this is due to patriarchy making it unacceptable to men to seek help for being beaten and appear to be " womanly" and not masculine enough. The pressure on men to not appear " weak" or "girly" is due to patriarchy, and seeking help for being abused is considered weak by " macho" men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo

Domestic Violence resources are allocated more to women due to more women than men being seriously injured or killed, and men are not stepping up and volunteering to create more resources for men. Men have to become more active in helping other men if you want this to improve.
 

wulf3n

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Lil devils x said:
. A huge obstacle for creating access to resources for male victims of domestic violence is finding men to donate their time and money to assisting other men. It is not that feminist do not care about male victims, it is that they lack the resources to provide for the women and children victims already and need men to also step up and volunteer their time as well. Men have to be available to assist other men, and sadly not that men are willing to do so. Women can help men as well only to a certain extent, but just as you have "women's only" facilities, you need "men's only" facilities as well, and not enough men are stepping up to make that happen. Men are more likely to complain about not having the services, but less likely to step up and create them.
I agree completely, but that's also why I take exception to the notion it's a feminist concern. I mean essentially what you're saying is "It's a feminist concern but men have to deal with it themselves" which essentially makes it not a feminist concern.

It's ok that Feminism is only concerned with helping women, a charitable organisation that stretches itself too thin helps no one, but just because the goal of feminism is equality that doesn't mean it's helping everyone equally.

Lil devils x said:
According to " feminism" this is due to patriarchy making it unacceptable to men to seek help for being beaten and appear to be " womanly" and not masculine enough. The pressure on men to not appear " weak" or "girly" is due to patriarchy, and seeking help for being abused is considered weak by " macho" men.
Well I disagree with that. As the video showed it's not just the "patriarchy" that's perpetuating that perception.
 

Thaluikhain

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wulf3n said:
Well I disagree with that. As the video showed it's not just the "patriarchy" that's perpetuating that perception.
Er...it is, unless you are using some very unusual definition of "patriarchy" there.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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wulf3n said:
Lil devils x said:
. A huge obstacle for creating access to resources for male victims of domestic violence is finding men to donate their time and money to assisting other men. It is not that feminist do not care about male victims, it is that they lack the resources to provide for the women and children victims already and need men to also step up and volunteer their time as well. Men have to be available to assist other men, and sadly not that men are willing to do so. Women can help men as well only to a certain extent, but just as you have "women's only" facilities, you need "men's only" facilities as well, and not enough men are stepping up to make that happen. Men are more likely to complain about not having the services, but less likely to step up and create them.
I agree completely, but that's also why I take exception to the notion it's a feminist concern. I mean essentially what you're saying is "It's a feminist concern but men have to deal with it themselves" which essentially makes it not a feminist concern.

It's ok that Feminism is only concerned with helping women, a charitable organisation that stretches itself too thin helps no one, but just because the goal of feminism is equality that doesn't mean it's helping everyone equally.

Lil devils x said:
According to " feminism" this is due to patriarchy making it unacceptable to men to seek help for being beaten and appear to be " womanly" and not masculine enough. The pressure on men to not appear " weak" or "girly" is due to patriarchy, and seeking help for being abused is considered weak by " macho" men.
Well I disagree with that. As the video showed it's not just the "patriarchy" that's perpetuating that perception.
No, I am not saying that feminist are saying that men have to deal with it themselves, not at all. Feminism is against the patriarchy and macho beliefs that endorse the violence in the first place and are trying to show how this is detrimental to society. Feminist ALSO will help in the expansion of their own programs and resources but ALSO require more man power and additional resources to do so. Of course feminist can help the men out, the problem is that is not what is being asked of them, instead they are being blamed for not doing it all for them. The men have to step up so that feminist CAN give them a hand, not just sit back and complain that they didn't do all the work for them.

Actually the video in the OP shows that Patriarchy is very much a problem, not the opposite. Having a woman attack a man and people do nothing about it only endorses patriarchy not disproves it. If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it. Under Patriarchy, men are not supposed to be weak, so of course no one is going to help him "He is a man". Under Patriarchy, it matters not what the woman does because the man is always stronger, tougher and the woman poses no threat so no one will help him.
 

wulf3n

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Lil devils x said:
instead they are being blamed for not doing it all for them. The men have to step up so that feminist CAN give them a hand, not just sit back and complain that they didn't do all the work for them.
It's not blaming. Just pointing out that feminism doesn't really help men.

Lil devils x said:
If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it.
A catch all word that has no real meaning?

edit:

A bit too facetious. My point was that in the first half of the video you see women rising up over the "patriarchy" that promotes men having power over women, by standing up to the man, and protecting the woman, but no one whatsoever stood up for the man.

What does it say about those who will fight the patriarchy for womens rights but not mens? Is it really just the "Patriarchy" that's the problem?
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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wulf3n said:
Lil devils x said:
instead they are being blamed for not doing it all for them. The men have to step up so that feminist CAN give them a hand, not just sit back and complain that they didn't do all the work for them.
It's not blaming. Just pointing out that feminism doesn't really help men.

Lil devils x said:
If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it.
A catch all word that has no real meaning?

edit:

A bit too facetious. My point was that in the first half of the video you see women rising up over the "patriarchy" that promotes men having power over women, by standing up to the man, and protecting the woman, but no one whatsoever stood up for the man.

What does it say about those who will fight the patriarchy for womens rights but not mens? Is it really just the "Patriarchy" that's the problem?
The first half of the video shows no such thing. Women rising up does not mean " women rising up in violence", that is not "rising up" at all, "rising up" means to be better than violence, not participate in it. Women can take part in and condone Patriarchy as much as men can. Patriarchy most definitely has meaning.

Not having adequate resources or enough men willing to participate does not show that feminism isn't helping men. Men have to get up and help themselves so women CAN help them otherwise there is nothing to "help" men with. If men are not bothered enough to volunteer, how can women help them make a successful program? Feminism can be and IS very beneficial to men if men allow it to be. Feminism encourages men to step away from patriarchy and not be afraid to ask for help. By seeing macho and patriarchy for what it is, and the consequences of it you can also help society progress forward to move past it to become a post patriarchal society where men and women are equal and it is not a bad thing to be " girly" or "womanly", it is okay for men to ask for help and they are no less " manly" for it, instead it is just a part of being "human".
 

generals3

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Lil devils x said:
If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it. Under Patriarchy, men are not supposed to be weak, so of course no one is going to help him "He is a man". Under Patriarchy, it matters not what the woman does because the man is always stronger, tougher and the woman poses no threat so no one will help him.
Wrong. In a real patriarchy such a thing would never happen. Because in an actual patriarchy a woman who even dares to lay a hand on her partner/husband would be severely punished.
 

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generals3 said:
Lil devils x said:
If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it. Under Patriarchy, men are not supposed to be weak, so of course no one is going to help him "He is a man". Under Patriarchy, it matters not what the woman does because the man is always stronger, tougher and the woman poses no threat so no one will help him.
Wrong. In a real patriarchy such a thing would never happen. Because in an actual patriarchy a woman who even dares to lay a hand on her partner/husband would be severely punished.
Of course in a "full Patriarchy" women would be beaten/stoned/ killed for such actions against a man, however, luckily western society has progressed quite far from that and hopefully is in the "death throws" at the end of Patriarchy. Although, society may never recover fully from the effects of Patriarchy, we can hope it becomes the " barbaric past" we wish to have no part of sooner rather than later.

Under patriarchy, women are also portrayed as being too weak to be a real threat to a man, they are considered inferior, so there is no sympathy for a man who could not handle his inferior woman. Failure to keep your woman in her place would make a man appear weak and cause embarrassment to him instead. Yes, the man would punish the woman, but if he failed to do so he would be humiliated.
 

Thyunda

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PeterMerkin69 said:
Thyunda said:
Why wasn't he in danger?
The worst thing that happened to him was the equivalent of someone bumping into him in a crowded area and even then he could have shut it down if he wanted to do so. Let me know when they release the footage of her doing something significantly worse than slightly displacing him.

Hey, maybe he lives 92 miles away from the nearest family member or friend and can't actually afford to leave, given that she paid for most of his possessions and he'll lose them on his departure.
Maybe he should have sold his Adventure Time memorabilia on eBay and bought a bus ticket to home, or gotten a job, or did something, anything, to help himself?

Maybe he feels pressured to stay and that he's with a girl he doesn't deserve and so he should be grateful she's even with him, and that a real man can handle the beatings. Maybe it looks consensual, but maybe he's just too trodden on to get back up.
If he can handle the beatings then it isn't a problem; if he values whatever he thinks is so special about her over his well-being then there isn't a problem. If he's too trodden to get back up then what difference does it make?

Maybe he can't get a job and that's why he's reliant on her? Some people can't go home, y'know. Some people were forced to leave in the first place.
Anything she did to him in the video was the exact equivalent of what he did to her. You saw how people reacted to him doing it to her, so why is it any different that she does the same to him?

Look, I'll put this in simple terms because you apparently haven't been outside in the past ten years. It is not okay to physically abuse anybody. It is never the victim's fault. If you hit somebody, it doesn't make them responsible just because they didn't knock you out in response, it just makes you an opportunistic twat. Is that clear enough for you?
 

Thaluikhain

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wulf3n said:
What does it say about those who will fight the patriarchy for womens rights but not mens? Is it really just the "Patriarchy" that's the problem?
You're assuming that men defending women isn't part of the patriarchy. Women being lesser, and thus requiring men to defend them is a big part of the patriarchy.

Taking your point more generally, though, yes, it's a big problem. People tend to be a lot more interested in having their rights fought for, than others. It's not so much an issue of feminism being there to support women at the expense of men, but that it's often an issue of feminism being run by women who are white, straight middle class cis able-bodied and so on, at the expense of women who aren't.

Dismantling the patriarchy benefits everyone, no matter what their gender. Using, for example, racism while doing so, only benefits a given value of "everyone".
 

generals3

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Lil devils x said:
Of course in a "full Patriarchy" women would be beaten/stoned/ killed for such actions against a man, however, luckily western society has progressed quite far from that and hopefully is in the "death throws" at the end of Patriarchy. Although, society may never recover fully from the effects of Patriarchy, we can hope it becomes the " barbaric past" we wish to have no part of sooner rather than later.

Under patriarchy, women are also portrayed as being too weak to be a real threat to a man, they are considered inferior, so there is no sympathy for a man who could not handle his inferior woman. Failure to keep your woman in her place would make a man appear weak and cause embarrassment to him instead. Yes, the man would punish the woman, but if he failed to do so he would be humiliated.
Yes he may have been humiliated but the twisted side of the current situation in a western society is that men are both expected to be able to handle such scenarios but aren't allowed to. And the reason for this is because we live in an age where the patriarchy has been destroyed (in the western world) but those who destroyed it for some reason claims it's still existing and they're continuously implanting that idea into people. So people continue in believing men are supposed to handle such situations (a consequence of the lies perpetuated regarding the existence of the patriarchy) but simply cannot (because the patriarchy is actually destroyed). How can we say anything close to a patriarchy even remains in a day and age where a man cannot even use legal self defence against a female partner? (because this is the current sad state of affairs)
 

NeutralDrow

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generals3 said:
How can we say anything close to a patriarchy even remains in a day and age where a man cannot even use legal self defence against a female partner?
Because that is absolutely a patriarchal attitude (for reasons that have already been mentioned, regarding men being "tainted" with associations of lesser, womanly behavior), and because domestic violence is only one small aspect of patriarchy that takes place alongside lower economic power, uneven societal pressures regarding sex and modesty, rape culture, and the continuing political influence of (often religious, but not always) organizations that are outright anti-woman.

You need to recognize the source if you want to enact a working solution.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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generals3 said:
How can we say anything close to a patriarchy even remains in a day and age where a man cannot even use legal self defence against a female partner?
Because he's not supposed to need to.

The patriarchy wasn't developed by a bunch of guys sitting down to make society better for themselves, it's a set of attitudes and beliefs that came about over centuries, based on the idea of male superiority.

Being (supposedly) inherently inferior, women aren't supposed to be able to threaten men. Men can't defend themselves, because a "real" man has nothing to defend himself against.

That this completely fails to reflect the reality of the situation is one of the problems with the patriarchy.
 

DevilWithaHalo

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wulf3n said:
Lil devils x said:
If you understand what patriarchy is, you would understand that is a prime example of the consequences of it.
A catch all word that has no real meaning?
That's more or less my take on the useless theoretical concept. I was once told by a woman in a store who asked for my help that she did so because I looked like I knew what I was doing. Patriarchy. I once assisted a woman install new wiper blades in her car outside a store because she was obviously having trouble figuring it out on her own. Patriarchy. I was told that long hair on a guy was a turn off. Patriarchy. I read a brief article yesterday about how Bike Helmet laws were sexist because they created bad hair days for women. Patriarchy. Me typing this nonsense(although all true) with haughty derision? Patriarchy. My denial of Patriarchy? Patriarchy.

You can't dismantle something that doesn't exist.