Men: Now a Minority in PC Gaming.

[Phasmal]

Point being, men's inclusion in gaming is rarely questioned in the way women's is. As a core female gamer, this makes me disappointed a little, when conversations about women in gaming immediately turn to conversations about casual gamers as if they are one and the same.

It being not questioned is not a positive thing for male gamers thought.

And you know why that is? Because they where demonized as nerdy basement dwellers for allmost 20 years.

By other gamers? Not really. You go on to talk about public opinion and sales, neither of which were things I was discussing. It is a positive thing that guys can generally talk to other gamer guys without worrying whether they're going to make your gender into an issue. It is a negative that we as gamers can't talk about women who play games without needing to draw dismissive lines.

EDIT: I don't see what's controversial about this opinion, really. I don't want to keep on it, but I don't see why we don't just view it as a pity, rather than having to go `Yeah... BUT...` every time it's bought up. Some things like that I just don't get.

 

[MXRom]

As long as I can still play Civilization, I don't care.

 

[Karadalis]

By other gamers? Not really. You go on to talk about public opinion and sales, neither of which were things I was discussing. It is a positive thing that guys can generally talk to other gamer guys without worrying whether they're going to make your gender into an issue. It is a negative that we as gamers can't talk about women who play games without needing to draw dismissive lines.

EDIT: I don't see what's controversial about this opinion, really. I don't want to keep on it, but I don't see why we don't just view it as a pity, rather than having to go `Yeah... BUT...` every time it's bought up. Some things like that I just don't get.

I..what?

You know ive said it myselfe before but thinking about it now i seriously have to ask:

Females not taken serious?

Where have you been the last 3 years? Theres no other topic in gaming KEPT FOR FEMALES IN GAMING. What they want, how they are represented, how everyone is hating on female gamers.

Female gamers have never been taken anymore serious then today... people are finaly starting to look into what female gamers are actually playing and theres a whole gaming branch dedicated almost entirely to their tastes.

Meanwhile hetero white males are demonized as the devils spawn, their opinion dismissed as being inherently mysoginisitc and anti progressive.

Yet female gamers arent taken serious enough?

Maybe if you would stop making such a huge deal about your gender people would take you more serious.. but thats just an idea.

 

[Piorn]

Finally, in the year 2014, women are allowed to purchase and operate electronic media! After prologned discussion with the Patriarchy, it was decided to end sexism in order to claim new customers for the entertainment industry.
Truly a marvelous achievement.
This breakthrough also comes with several shocking revelation, such as that women like to play games almost as much as real humans, and generally don't differ that much from humans.
Anthropologists now even suspect they might be part of the same species as normal men, a theory that used to be ridiculed in the videogame industry, is gaining popularity by the minute.
Market researchers are literally befuddled, as the number of customers has suddenly doubled over night.

What a great time to be alive.

 

[Karadalis]

Finally, in the year 2014, women are allowed to purchase and operate electronic media! After prologned discussion with the Patriarchy, it was decided to end sexism in order to claim new customers for the entertainment industry.
Truly a marvelous achievement.
This breakthrough also comes with several shocking revelation, such as that women like to play games almost as much as real humans, and generally don't differ that much from humans.
Anthropologists now even suspect they might be part of the same species as normal men, a theory that used to be ridiculed in the videogame industry, is gaining popularity by the minute.
Market researchers are literally befuddled, as the number of customers has suddenly doubled over night.

What a great time to be alive.

The hidden object game industry, the social game industry and the tablet game industry have known all this for years and making millions hand over fist from female gamers alone.

Meanwhile female gamers continue to be a non factor for the tripple A industry, despite the gaming media and SJWs screaming at the top of their lungs that this is not the case and that they are infact a very important part of the AAA customerbase.

Because atleast half of those initial 6 million GTA sales surely must have been female... right?

 

[Phasmal]

Maybe if you would stop making such a huge deal about your gender people would take you more serious.. but thats just an idea.

Okay, this conversation shortened:

Topic: Men women 50-50!
People: Psh yeah if you include FARMVILLE
Me: Isn't it sad we, as gamers, can't talk about women without talking about casual gamers?
You: Stop talking about your gender!

???????????????????????

Okay, dude, sure.

EDIT: Judging by the completely different message I have in my quote inbox, you obviously have some feelings about this that I'd rather not go into.

 

[Something Amyss]

I consider myself a "gamer" despite some of my misgivings with the unspecific nature of the term, and posted some of my thoughts on the issue on the last page in what I thought was a reasonable, level-headed and non-inflammatory way, and got completely ignored for it. So does that mean I need to resort to histrionics in order for people to pay attention to what I say?

Well, I can tell you one thing: a post like this is a good way to get ignored by me permanently.

I'm sorry your unspecified nature of gamer post got ignored. I sure as fuck didn't see it (and given you're replying, I'm betting you know exactly why), but I'm simply not going to look for it now.

 

[Something Amyss]

Meanwhile hetero white males are demonized as the devils spawn, their opinion dismissed as being inherently mysoginisitc and anti progressive.

In what reality? Because it sure as hell ain't this one.

Meanwhile female gamers continue to be a non factor for the tripple A industry, despite the gaming media and SJWs screaming at the top of their lungs that this is not the case and that they are infact a very important part of the AAA customerbase.

Because atleast half of those initial 6 million GTA sales surely must have been female... right?

Well thank God you brought in those hard numbers on Triple A gaming and GTA, otherwise this might look like you weren't taking "females" seriously and just dismissing them out of convenience.

 

[Something Amyss]

Eh. I try to ignore/avoid the `fake` thing now. I don't think you can really reason with someone who thinks that women would spend a shit-ton of time and money getting gaming stuff, playing games and talking about games just to impress them. Games are infinitely more interesting than some guy's D. I can't really understand that level of narcissism.

But nerd D is the best D!

<.<

Seriously, though, I'm just commenting on the pattern. It sort of fits into the treatment and rationalisation of the "no wimminz" attitude, so I bring it up.

though now that I think of it, it's kind of funny that the counter argument is that "we" (gamers) deride the CoD/similar crowd, when they're the reason men supposedly dominate AAA gaming.

 

[RicoADF]

BEGIN SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC RANT:

The problem is that gaming and gamer culture started out as a boys club and largely started out (and continues to be if you watch Colbert) being ridiculed by women in general and non-gaming men. Gamers were seen as unattractive, outcast nerds that couldn't get a date and weren't liked by women. That brand still has some historical sting to it despite the fact it is no longer true. That's one of the reasons why you see so much resistance to the increased attention of feminists in gaming culture. There's still this stigma that's present in gaming culture, and folks like Anita Sarkeesian are really helping to reinforce it and alienate gamers further, which causes reactionary narratives and (in the internet day and age) harassment.

I think that barriers need to be broken down through discussion rather than heavily political language and, to be perfectly frank, women seeking to criticize gaming culture need to come with an olive branch and watch what you say. It's a touchy subject, much like race in America, where saying something that's a totally valid observation can lead to widespread ridicule and disdain because of how you say it. It's inverted in this case because gaming is dominated by white males who are typically seen as the "privileged" ones and women are typically seen as repressed in some form or another by white males. In this situation, the roles are reversed and nobody is willing to admit it.

None of this is an excuse for how prevalent harassment is in gaming and online culture in general, though. It comes as a side-effect of anonymity and the decrease in individual responsibility in the internet age. It's definitely a topic that needs to be discussed, however, the only people that think that this behavior is acceptable are those perpetrating it, which is a very small but very vocal minority. In order to actually have frank discussion on the topic, the overly broad buzzword labels need to stop flying (gamer as harasser, feminist as radical Sarkeesianist, etc.) and people need to talk to each other like human beings. Those who are not familiar with the totality of gamer culture should seek understanding, and gamers should support those that do, especially women and other underrepresented demographics.

End slightly off-topic rant.

That's the best job I've ever seen of someone explaining the 'gaming' situation, you good sir/madam have hit the nail right on the head, bravo *insert clapping animation*

I'd like to save that quote for future use if you don't mind

 

[Vault101]

I think that barriers need to be broken down through discussion rather than heavily political language and, to be perfectly frank, women seeking to criticize gaming culture need to come with an olive branch and watch what you say. It's a touchy subject, .

-_-......[I/]no we fucking don't[/I]

look if I think there is a gender problem in a game then I will say it, I wont be a jerk about it, [b/]I wont claim people are sexist[/b]

but you know what the problem is?

that narrative of the poor white gamer males being demonized and called sexist? most of that is just a knee jerk reaction

because when people lack a certain amount of maturity and create an identity out of a large commercial product and call it a "culture" theyre gonna flip their shit if some "outsider" calls a game sexist because they think THEY are the ones being called sexist

[I/]"this is game isn't sexist I'M not sext who are you calling ME sexist I'VE never done that I don't know anyone who's done that this ***** hates US me me me me me me!! its all about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee[/I]

they want games to be taken seriously? they need to have the capacity to listen and accept things from a critical viewpoint, and not lose their shit just because it isn't an overly negative British man in a fedora doing the criticism

because its all underlined by fear of the "other"

so again if someone takes my criticism of a game personally? that's THEIR problem, I won't tiptoe around the feeling of boys who haven't grown the fuck up

and that might seem harsh but with all this gamergate clusterfuck I don't care anymore...."gamers" have collectively lost my respect

 

[LittleJoeRambler]

I consider myself a "gamer" despite some of my misgivings with the unspecific nature of the term, and posted some of my thoughts on the issue on the last page in what I thought was a reasonable, level-headed and non-inflammatory way, and got completely ignored for it. So does that mean I need to resort to histrionics in order for people to pay attention to what I say?

Well, I can tell you one thing: a post like this is a good way to get ignored by me permanently.

I'm sorry your unspecified nature of gamer post got ignored. I sure as fuck didn't see it (and given you're replying, I'm betting you know exactly why), but I'm simply not going to look for it now.

The TL;DR version is that I don't believe there is necessarily a division between what is a game and what isn't (which is what the thread was discussing at the time), and more that we don't have a real way to differentiate between people who play games solely as a distraction or time-killer (I used the example of playing a game on a smartphone as opposed to reading a magazine in a doctor's office) and people who invest thousands of dollars and thousands of hours playing, discussing, and even making and testing games as end users. Both of those people get called "gamer," and the best term we have to describe the people in the second category is "hardcore," but all that does is bring the topic back to what games are "hardcore" or "real" versus "casual" or "fake," and the cycle begins anew. There was also an analogy in there, but it's not important now.

Also, I apologize for the facetious nature of my previous post, but all I've seen out of people who claim they want to talk about and fix games without the drama and stupidity of stuff like GamerGate is essentially feeding the trolls. The loud and obnoxious people get responded to, insults are flung, and no one wins because trenches just get dug deeper. I'm making an effort to be a reasonable "gamer" voice, is what I'm saying, because I actually want to see progress in the medium. I don't want women to carry extra stigmas for playing games, I'd like to be able to introduce my sisters and possible future daughters to my pastime without them getting discouraged by douchebags and idiots. I'd love for my wife to see games as more than just a throwaway plaything, so that we can have another thing to share in our limited off time. And I'd like to be able to tell my coworkers I play fantasy RPGs and RTSs without getting weird looks.

The cretins within the culture still control the conversation, and I'm looking to change that.

 

[AngryPuppy]

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt it. I don't care what that "poll" says. I know a ton of Females, play/ed tons of online games and still don't know many Females who play games on a regular basis (and No, Facebook and iPhone players do not count as "gamers" IMO).

 

[RavingSturm]

I think the data is wrong. If you count the people just killing time, the numbers might add up but the thing is these people arent really playing. I have cousins with family sharing on steam, and the girls wont even touch games like COD. They just play extremely casual stuff and even the ones who play LoL dont play it competitively, more like a time sink like I said earlier. I've already tried getting them to try some games like the CODs or Tomb Raider but the shooting action or reflex type games, like Ninja Gaiden, makes them feel overwhelmed.

 

[DementedSheep]

I think the data is wrong. If you count the people just killing time, the numbers might add up but the thing is these people arent really playing. I have cousins with family sharing on steam, and the girls wont even touch games like COD. They just play extremely casual stuff and even the ones who play LoL dont play it competitively, more like a time sink like I said earlier. I've already tried getting them to try some games like the CODs or Tomb Raider but the shooting action or reflex type games, like Ninja Gaiden, makes them feel overwhelmed.

"oh sure they play games but since it's not games I personally like they're not REAL games and even those that do play games I like totally aren't playing them properly"

Always a fucking loop, yeah?

 

[MrFalconfly]

I think the data is wrong. If you count the people just killing time, the numbers might add up but the thing is these people arent really playing. I have cousins with family sharing on steam, and the girls wont even touch games like COD. They just play extremely casual stuff and even the ones who play LoL dont play it competitively, more like a time sink like I said earlier. I've already tried getting them to try some games like the CODs or Tomb Raider but the shooting action or reflex type games, like Ninja Gaiden, makes them feel overwhelmed.

So in short.

"People playing games I don't like, with an approach I don't like aren't gamers".

Mate, they play games (REGULARLY. It's not a once in a blue moon. Certainly isn't for my mum at least), what else do you want?

 

[RavingSturm]

I think the data is wrong. If you count the people just killing time, the numbers might add up but the thing is these people arent really playing. I have cousins with family sharing on steam, and the girls wont even touch games like COD. They just play extremely casual stuff and even the ones who play LoL dont play it competitively, more like a time sink like I said earlier. I've already tried getting them to try some games like the CODs or Tomb Raider but the shooting action or reflex type games, like Ninja Gaiden, makes them feel overwhelmed.

"oh sure they play games but since it's not games I personally like they're not REAL games and even those that do play games I like totally aren't playing them properly"

Always a fucking loop, yeah?

Dont be a smart aleck bub! Anybody randomly tapping on a tablet to Flappy Bird could be called "playing". The thing is most of these casual players arent going to set aside some money or block off significant amounts of time in a week to play the latest releases. Usually its just passing time at the office or staving off bordedom.

 

[RavingSturm]

I think the data is wrong. If you count the people just killing time, the numbers might add up but the thing is these people arent really playing. I have cousins with family sharing on steam, and the girls wont even touch games like COD. They just play extremely casual stuff and even the ones who play LoL dont play it competitively, more like a time sink like I said earlier. I've already tried getting them to try some games like the CODs or Tomb Raider but the shooting action or reflex type games, like Ninja Gaiden, makes them feel overwhelmed.

So in short.

"People playing games I don't like, with an approach I don't like aren't gamers".

Mate, they play games (REGULARLY. It's not a once in a blue moon. Certainly isn't for my mum at least), what else do you want?

What do you mean by REGULAR mate? Once a day on the dot, 3 times a day? What's considered regular for you may not be the same as others. Does your mom's example represent everybody else?

 

[MrFalconfly]

What do you mean by REGULAR mate? Once a day on the dot, 3 times a day? What's considered regular for you may not be the same as others. Does your mom's example represent everybody else?

Regularly.

Periodically.

3-4 times per day (certainly more than you pick up a book, or go to the cinema).

And no, my mum doesn't represent all others. Just the minimum for who I'd consider a gamer.

 

[jklinders]

I had to follow three links to get get to a source on the methodology they used. Looks like they were going on a strictly back end transaction basis with no actual interaction with users.

This is a good way to collect a large amount of data quickly but rather bad on drilling down on the details.

A sample size of 1000 is fine and I think it was also fine that they tried to break things down by category. Some quibbles.

I do separate mobile and casual gaming from the rest of the landscape. I feel this is OK because I feel there is a difference between Farming stats on Dawn of the Dragons or Farmville over your coffee before going to work and dropping a couple of hours into an MMO. Same for time killing on a bus. These games are meant to grab a bite of time (and your wallet) in exchange for very little gameplay.

The market already recognizes a difference in the userbase between casual and AAA. The majority of casual games are geared toward women or at least people who game in smaller chunks of time due to their particular life's pressures. That difference existed well before any of these surveys.

Last quibble is that by going purely on payment information (which is where much of their data is coming from) discounts situations where games or subscriptions are being purchased as gifts. Without directly interacting with the gamers themselves there is no way to separate that info out.

More women gaming? Great. Does action need to be taken as a result of it? I'm presuming that's the question of this thread, but the numbers are suggesting that there is a hardening of the lines between men and women on the casual/hardcore divide not a softening. This is a situation best addressed by the free market and not as much by...whatever malarkey has hit gaming since that thing that happened a couple of months ago that I am trying and failing to not bring up.