Mens Rights Activists

[Tojumaru]

I was on 4chan when this whole shebang happened. It went like this:
-/pol/ retards started posting MRA threads on /tv/(everybody hates /pol/, /tv/ is trollish but not outright douchey)
-/tv/ folks bashed them to oblivion
-after a couple of days /pol/ folks started getting less attention, while every freaking anti-feminist Mad Max thread was flooded by the film's fans(the ammount of love Doof Warrior is getting is astounding)
-now 1/3 threads are Mad Max, everybody admits to loving it(except contrarians and the few /pol/ idiots remainin)
-some guys actually admitted to troll MRA threads just to get people talking about Mad Max
-everybody went back to talking shit about that new Terminator film and that new Jurassic film(which will be awful and I don't even doubt it)

Everything is back to normal. Mad Max is doing OK in cinemas and has long legs. It is the best action film since Apocalypto and the best film of the decade. Everybody acknowledges that and even stranger, a shitload of people started re/watching the original Mad Max trilogy.

 

[Tojumaru]

Oh, also, there are legitimate complaints that men do have in the court system, such as custody and property split and alimony. But MRA morons manage to poison the water for everyone, so any dude trying to make a legitimate point is always getting lumped together. Fucking hell.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Oh, also, there are legitimate complaints that men do have in the court system, such as custody and property split and alimony. But MRA morons manage to poison the water for everyone, so any dude trying to make a legitimate point is always getting lumped together. Fucking hell.

I have a funny story about the alimony issue. The alimony issue was due to women being discriminated against for work and being seen as " too weak" to take care of themselves so the courts assume the man must take care of them or they will be unable to care for themselves.

For the past 10 years though my uncle is made fun of by other men because he receives alimony from his ex wife who ran off with another man, since my uncle was unemployed for most of their marriage and deemed unable to support himself due to an injury he sustained early on in their marriage that prevented him from continuing the work he had done previously and not only did the court order my aunt to pay him alimony, they ALSO ordered her to keep her insurance on him and pay for it otherwise he would be uninsured.

Guys actually have made fun of him for receiving alimony, whereas most women do not make fun of women for receiving alimony.

 

[Guerilla]

Oh please... There have been countless studies on violence and the sexes over the years. The MRA pushing their false information does not suddenly change the reality of the situation. Our Emergency room data and homicide data do not lie. Both men and women do not report the violence against them, EVEN when they are sent to the ER due to the severity of their injuries, they frequently do not want their " loved one" who did this to them to be jailed. As the DOJ stated above, violence against men by women is far more rare than violence against both men and women.

THIS is also why there are many obstacles to overcome when providing men with proper shelters. Many of the men in need of shelters are also violent and many have mental health issues and addictions. The shelters for men are not safe due to the men that are in the shelters, so not only are they left trying to provide shelters for these men, they are left ALSO to protect the men in the shelters from themselves and other men in there. While there are still issues in the female shelters, the issue of violence is not as prevalent in the female shelters as it is in the male shelters currently, and we do not have a long term solution to address the issue of violence in the men's shelters as of yet. IF you put these men back on the street for being violent, you are failing to solve the problem.

You're not even offering a rebuttal here to me pointing out that even your one single source admits that women are as violent as men (while most conclude that women are more violent). You're just ranting about MRA conspiracies and repeating the same stuff about reported cases. For the record I dislike MRAs as much as feminists but I'm not gonna ignore the consensus of most studies. Men just don't report or don't care to go to the hospital for injuries which in most cases shouldn't be as bad given they're attacked by women.

And what the hell is going on with that obnoxiously sexist assumption of yours that "many of the men" in need of shelter are violent? And of course women that can't be, right? Jesus Christ...

 

[Cryselle]

Then how is it that people who believe in old-school "egalitarianism-in-disguise" feminism feel they have to side with their radical fringe? Where we have to fear being hated for not siding with Sarkeesian, McIntosh, Rebecca Watson, etc even though we do in fact support equality? Feminism, like it or not, is a term that implies need for extreme affirmative action on the level of quotas, eggshell-walking, and special privileges. We live in an era where we can easily say that violations of civil rights are publicly decried, and change and equality are pushed for. Feminism has indeed become angry SJWs, and their more conservative contemporaries who speak up rarely if at all. "Real" feminists are jumping ship, which is fine because feminism is careening towards the reef, but shore isn't far and there are plenty of life boats.

I may need to clarify: I am contesting that there is a majority, let alone a vast one.

What you don't understand is that the people throwing fits on the internet aren't representative of the whole at all. I've been involved in the movement for over two decades now, and people who come into meetings in my area (which is a major city) and start talking about quotas and special rights are politely shown the door because they're not what we believe in. Twitter is not activism. Tumblr is not activism. They're places that loud people go to yell in the hopes that someone hears them. (This is not to say that nothing good ever happens on them, just that the majority of actual legwork isn't there) Are there people who believe in that kind of thing? Of course there are. And yes, they're VERY loud and obnoxious. But I can't spend my life sitting on Twitter waiting for an obnoxious person to open their mouth so I can condemn them and prove myself every single day to people who don't want to listen anyway.

Go through my posts if you want and show me one point where I have said that the radical fringe should be supported? Or that people like Sarkeesian represent my views? Because I believe that I have, consistently, stated quite the opposite. I have, and will, always stand for equality of opportunity (not of result). If I'm taking umbrage, as you claim, it's because it is exhausting after a while to have complete strangers try and tell me what I think.

 

[Tojumaru]

I just really want to know what non-radical modern day feminism does. I am not cunty, sarcastic or feigning ignorance to draw a response, just genuinely curious. You can PM me if you don't want to flood the discussion with you schooling me.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I just really want to know what non-radical modern day feminism does. I am not cunty, sarcastic or feigning ignorance to draw a response, just genuinely curious. You can PM me if you don't want to flood the discussion with you schooling me.

Modern feminists raise money and volunteers to staff abuse hotlines, battered women's shelters, safe houses, counseling services, provide legal services, bill and housing assistance programs for single mothers, college scholarships and help solve women's transportation issues, they provide funding and attorneys to fight against gender discrimination in employment and in the courts to name just a few of the things they do.

 

[Guerilla]

What you don't understand is that the people throwing fits on the internet aren't representative of the whole at all. I've been involved in the movement for over two decades now, and people who come into meetings in my area (which is a major city) and start talking about quotas and special rights are politely shown the door because they're not what we believe in. Twitter is not activism. Tumblr is not activism. They're places that loud people go to yell in the hopes that someone hears them. (This is not to say that nothing good ever happens on them, just that the majority of actual legwork isn't there) Are there people who believe in that kind of thing? Of course there are. And yes, they're VERY loud and obnoxious. But I can't spend my life sitting on Twitter waiting for an obnoxious person to open their mouth so I can condemn them and prove myself every single day to people who don't want to listen anyway.

Go through my posts if you want and show me one point where I have said that the radical fringe should be supported? Or that people like Sarkeesian represent my views? Because I believe that I have, consistently, stated quite the opposite. I have, and will, always stand for equality of opportunity (not of result). If I'm taking umbrage, as you claim, it's because it is exhausting after a while to have complete strangers try and tell me what I think.

The fact is that Generation Y kids which are typically the ones so invested in this gender wars crap organize and are influenced by these movements almost excursively from the internet. And the most popular representatives of both feminism and MRAs on the internet are lunatic fringe like Jezebel, A voice of men, Feministing, marysue and so on who are full of misandrists and misogynists respectively. When a movement has been taken over by nutjobs you can't just try to change our view of these movements with motte-bailey fallacies. They are what they are, stubbornly trying to save the word instead of just admitting that the movement isn't what it used to be is backwards logic.

The least you could do in the situation like that is go against the morons who have ruined your movement instead of us who are just noticing it. But even the sane feminists/MRAs that are left NEVER do that because they don't have the balls to go against their own.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Oh please... There have been countless studies on violence and the sexes over the years. The MRA pushing their false information does not suddenly change the reality of the situation. Our Emergency room data and homicide data do not lie. Both men and women do not report the violence against them, EVEN when they are sent to the ER due to the severity of their injuries, they frequently do not want their " loved one" who did this to them to be jailed. As the DOJ stated above, violence against men by women is far more rare than violence against both men and women.

THIS is also why there are many obstacles to overcome when providing men with proper shelters. Many of the men in need of shelters are also violent and many have mental health issues and addictions. The shelters for men are not safe due to the men that are in the shelters, so not only are they left trying to provide shelters for these men, they are left ALSO to protect the men in the shelters from themselves and other men in there. While there are still issues in the female shelters, the issue of violence is not as prevalent in the female shelters as it is in the male shelters currently, and we do not have a long term solution to address the issue of violence in the men's shelters as of yet. IF you put these men back on the street for being violent, you are failing to solve the problem.

You're not even offering a rebuttal here to me pointing out that even your one single source admits that women are as violent as men (while most conclude that women are more violent). You're just ranting about MRA conspiracies and repeating the same stuff about reported cases. For the record I dislike MRAs as much as feminists but I'm not gonna ignore the consensus of most studies. Men just don't report or don't care to go to the hospital for injuries which in most cases shouldn't be as bad given they're attacked by women.

And what the hell is going on with that obnoxiously sexist assumption of yours that "many of the men" in need of shelter are violent? Compared to women that can't be? Jesus Christ...

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators. Men are attacked by men MORE than they are attacked by women.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

 

[Guerilla]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

It isn't a different issue at all and has EVERYTHING to do with relationships. Lets go to just the data on relationships... Most homicide victims are men, however, most intimate partner victims are FEMALE. It doesn't " demonize men" to look at the homicide statistics, that is just looking at the facts. If we want to stop this, we have to address this very serious issue not pretend like we cannot look at it for what it is because you think that will demonize men. We don;t need to sugar coat this to resolve it, that does nothing to help stop it from happening, and I would like to think that is our ultimate goal is to reduce the numbers of people this happens to. The purpose of the "Battered women's shelter"s IS to prevent homicides by intimate partners. That is why they exist. So of course we have to address the issue not tip toe around it.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Men are more likely to be killed by a male acquaintance than an intimate partner.
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."

There are MANY studies women do not report abuse as well, not reporting abuse happens with BOTH men AND WOMEN.

For example:
"The current study found that 90 percent of women who had encountered the criminal legal system for previous intimate partner abuse victimization's did not contact the police for some or all recurrences."

http://mysite.du.edu/~adeprinc/goverweltonetal2013.pdf
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536.full
Women Afraid to Report Domestic Abuse
https://www.rosebrooks.org/news-holiday-violence.html
Most young women, girls in US don?t report sexual abuse, believe it is part of life
http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2014/04/16/young-women-girls-us-dont-report-sexual-abuse-believe-part-life/

 

[Thaluikhain]

I just really want to know what non-radical modern day feminism does. I am not cunty, sarcastic or feigning ignorance to draw a response, just genuinely curious. You can PM me if you don't want to flood the discussion with you schooling me.

To add to what Lil Devil X said, there's a lot of discussion about gender issues. I mean, you don't suddenly say "sexism is bad", and instantly free yourself of all prejudices and biases, it's something to work on, and there's a lot of helpful information around about it.

Also, a lot of analysis about stuff like government policy, who is making those policies, elections and so on.

 

[Gorrila_thinktank]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

It isn't a different issue at all and has EVERYTHING to do with relationships. Lets go to just the data on relationships... Most homicide victims are men, however, most intimate partner victims are FEMALE. It doesn't " demonize men" to look at the homicide statistics, that is just looking at the facts. If we want to stop this, we have to address this very serious issue not pretend like we cannot look at it for what it is because you think that will demonize men. We don;t need to sugar coat this to resolve it, that does nothing to help stop it from happening, and I would like to think that is our ultimate goal is to reduce the numbers of people this happens to. The purpose of the "Battered women's shelter"s IS to prevent homicides by intimate partners. That is why they exist. So of course we have to address the issue not tip toe around it.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Men are more likely to be killed by a male acquaintance than an intimate partner.
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."

There are MANY studies women do not report abuse as well, not reporting abuse happens with BOTH men AND WOMEN.

For example:
"The current study found that 90 percent of women who had encountered the criminal legal system for previous intimate partner abuse victimization's did not contact the police for some or all recurrences."

http://mysite.du.edu/~adeprinc/goverweltonetal2013.pdf
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536.full
Women Afraid to Report Domestic Abuse
https://www.rosebrooks.org/news-holiday-violence.html
Most young women, girls in US don?t report sexual abuse, believe it is part of life
http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2014/04/16/young-women-girls-us-dont-report-sexual-abuse-believe-part-life/

Damn. Well I guess that's it. Men are violent and women need protection. I can see why the MRA are fighting against these stats. The burden of expectation on something like this must suck. But we'll always have eugenics right? Maybe Valerie Solanas was right.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

It isn't a different issue at all and has EVERYTHING to do with relationships. Lets go to just the data on relationships... Most homicide victims are men, however, most intimate partner victims are FEMALE. It doesn't " demonize men" to look at the homicide statistics, that is just looking at the facts. If we want to stop this, we have to address this very serious issue not pretend like we cannot look at it for what it is because you think that will demonize men. We don;t need to sugar coat this to resolve it, that does nothing to help stop it from happening, and I would like to think that is our ultimate goal is to reduce the numbers of people this happens to. The purpose of the "Battered women's shelter"s IS to prevent homicides by intimate partners. That is why they exist. So of course we have to address the issue not tip toe around it.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Men are more likely to be killed by a male acquaintance than an intimate partner.
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."

There are MANY studies women do not report abuse as well, not reporting abuse happens with BOTH men AND WOMEN.

For example:
"The current study found that 90 percent of women who had encountered the criminal legal system for previous intimate partner abuse victimization's did not contact the police for some or all recurrences."

http://mysite.du.edu/~adeprinc/goverweltonetal2013.pdf
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536.full
Women Afraid to Report Domestic Abuse
https://www.rosebrooks.org/news-holiday-violence.html
Most young women, girls in US don?t report sexual abuse, believe it is part of life
http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2014/04/16/young-women-girls-us-dont-report-sexual-abuse-believe-part-life/

Damn. Well I guess that's it. Men are violent and women need protection. I can see why the MRA are fighting against these stats. The burden of expectation on something like this must suck. But we'll always have eugenics right? Maybe Valerie Solanas was right.

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill men MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior is considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

In societies where the strong are considered the ones who refrain from violence and admire understanding and compassion instead, you do not have this problem, they view violence and anger as immature and disgusting like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum instead, and do not respect it. In non war promotion societies, to be a " respectable man" the qualities that are admired are understanding, compassion and wisdom and to shun violence.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill me MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

Actually the fact of the matter is due to the race card being used at a drop of a hat, along with the rewarding of poverty with a pay check is what's driving these issues. When people have little to no hope to get out of poverty and are fed handouts, rather than getting hand ups, people start looking on th less then legal side to get ahead. You add into that the fact that most murders are related to some sort of organized crime, and you start to see some real troubling patterns with society. The problem is that a lot of this men killing men is fueled by racial tensions and illegal drug dealing. Then you have social commentators who dismiss the rampant crime and push for more handouts that further the depth of the of the issues. So rather than elevating people what we're getting a lot of is cramming impoverished people into ghettos, where the only way they can get ahead is through either exploiting men around them, which is what women tend to do, or turning to crime, which is what the men do. The problem is less the warrior culture, or using military members as role models and more the fact that crime is essentially the only way so many people see as their path to being financially secure. There's more to it than just that, but that's the foundation these problems are built on.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill me MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

Actually the fact of the matter is due to the race card being used at a drop of a hat, along with the rewarding of poverty with a pay check is what's driving these issues. When people have little to no hope to get out of poverty and are fed handouts, rather than getting hand ups, people start looking on th less then legal side to get ahead. You add into that the fact that most murders are related to some sort of organized crime, and you start to see some real troubling patterns with society. The problem is that a lot of this men killing men is fueled by racial tensions and illegal drug dealing. Then you have social commentators who dismiss the rampant crime and push for more handouts that further the depth of the of the issues. So rather than elevating people what we're getting a lot of is cramming impoverished people into ghettos, where the only way they can get ahead is through either exploiting men around them, which is what women tend to do, or turning to crime, which is what the men do. The problem is less the warrior culture, or using military members as role models and more the fact that crime is essentially the only way so many people see as their path to being financially secure. There's more to it than just that, but that's the foundation these problems are built on.

I am trying to figure out your reasoning here.. You claim that "poverty is rewarded with a paycheck?" and that leads to more murders?
This makes no sense. In cultures where everything is shared equally among the people and warriors are not revered, they have a history of non violence and no need for force. So in societies where they reward poverty with providing equally for all who live there, even going as far to check on them every night to make sure they have had dinner, they do not have these issues. The thought of " fighting someone" isn't thought to be " tough" there, instead it is thought to be gross and disgusting.

It is the " warrior foundation" that is the issue. The fact that violence is found to be entertaining, acceptable and admired is at the core of the issue. If people think of something as repulsive , like worse than vomit, they are not going to want to participate in it. Military are not the only " warrior heroes" in US society, so are " pimps, Cartel, gangs, drug dealers, boxers, football players, and UFC fighters.. ALL of these things are promoted in a warrior society by groups within that society.

 

[Gorrila_thinktank]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

It isn't a different issue at all and has EVERYTHING to do with relationships. Lets go to just the data on relationships... Most homicide victims are men, however, most intimate partner victims are FEMALE. It doesn't " demonize men" to look at the homicide statistics, that is just looking at the facts. If we want to stop this, we have to address this very serious issue not pretend like we cannot look at it for what it is because you think that will demonize men. We don;t need to sugar coat this to resolve it, that does nothing to help stop it from happening, and I would like to think that is our ultimate goal is to reduce the numbers of people this happens to. The purpose of the "Battered women's shelter"s IS to prevent homicides by intimate partners. That is why they exist. So of course we have to address the issue not tip toe around it.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Men are more likely to be killed by a male acquaintance than an intimate partner.
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."

There are MANY studies women do not report abuse as well, not reporting abuse happens with BOTH men AND WOMEN.

For example:
"The current study found that 90 percent of women who had encountered the criminal legal system for previous intimate partner abuse victimization's did not contact the police for some or all recurrences."

http://mysite.du.edu/~adeprinc/goverweltonetal2013.pdf
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536.full
Women Afraid to Report Domestic Abuse
https://www.rosebrooks.org/news-holiday-violence.html
Most young women, girls in US don?t report sexual abuse, believe it is part of life
http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2014/04/16/young-women-girls-us-dont-report-sexual-abuse-believe-part-life/

Damn. Well I guess that's it. Men are violent and women need protection. I can see why the MRA are fighting against these stats. The burden of expectation on something like this must suck. But we'll always have eugenics right? Maybe Valerie Solanas was right.

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill men MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

In societies where the strong are considered the ones who refrain from violence and admire understanding and compassion instead, you do not have this problem, they view violence and anger as immature and disgusting like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum instead, and do not respect it.

Which countries are you talking about? I haven't traveled much, so the closest people I know of to what you're describing sound like the Mennonites. Are you talking about the Mennonites? I think it would be a great about face if the answer to man's inhumanity to man was God. I dont know if we want to bring religion into the thread, that may be one more big I issues then we can all deal with here

Speaking towards the general discussion; If the stats that Lil devils x has brought forward are true, how do we go about solving them, without using those same stats to bludgeon males? I can easily envision these stats really screwing up a little boy if he heard them in the wrong tone. Is presentation key?

 

[Gorrath]

I've bumped into a few hard-core, "women are taking our balls!"-style MRAs. My last roommate was one. As a former Christian, I find from my peers that this seems to be common in religion. Especially a religion that teaches that women have no place teaching and must obey their husbands no matter what to be moral.
I would like to distinguish between MRAs and men who prefer egalitarianism to feminism, however. An MRA sees women as a threat and match feminist stereotypes of what men are like. An egalitarian sees feminism as it's practiced now in the Tumblr age and believes it focuses too much on punishing men and placing women on pedestals, and not enough on actually making all humans equal. I feel the perspectives are radically different, but I assure you many do hold stark contrast and will argue that anyone who isn't a feminist is an MRA.

If I'm a feminist and an MRA, is there some kind of explosion that rips apart the fabric of space and time? I think you're on to something though. Many people get their idea of what MRA is from festering ego-centric places like r/redpill or "A Voice for Men." This is akin to looking at tumblr and proclaiming that feminism is that.

INterestingly enough, I am a feminist and MRA who prefers egalitarianism. The plot thickens!

I would expound then that you're not using the words in the modern sense. The definitions, sadly, have been altered in a way that cannot be salvaged. So, in the modern sense, how can you at the same time EXCLUSIVELY support men's rights and EXCLUSIVELY support women's rights, and then say you support both equally? By their very nature, by the current definitions, you can only be one of the three: an exclusivist on either side or an inclusivist in the middle.

I don't see how the modern definitions (defined by whom?) are exclusionary. Some conflate the backlash in MRM to anti-feminism but I believe this is a misunderstanding of what the reactionary elements are in MRM and why MRM was formed. There's nothing in the core of either feminism or MRM that makes the two incompatible.

MRM (founded in the 70's out of the Men's Liberation Movement) wanted to counter what was perceived as second wave feminism's overreach and demonization of men and masculinity. This was a justifiable backlash given what some prominent feminists in the second wave had to say on those subjects and given the way men were and still are fighting for fair treatment in courts. Feminism was and is seen as not doing enough to help men's inequality in either theory (patriarchy often being thought/taught as male oppression of women when modern patriarchy stems from expected adherence/belief in traditional gender roles, setting up men as "the problem") or practice (prominent feminist groups opposition via lobbying to legislation meant to level the playing field in various men's rights issues.) This backlash often takes the form of, or is interpreted as, being anti-feminist when it was only anti-feminist on certain issues. In turn some, maybe many or most, feminists think of MRM's anti-feminist views as being in opposition to equality. Hell, many self-proclaimed MRAs have the same ignorant view of the movement, which only leads to more confusion.

So, how do I square this circle? If feminism is a movement about equality of the sexes (and for some, genders) and MRM is a movement about equality of the sexes, then the two movements are perfectly compatible. If either movement is solely about the issues of one sex, then they are still compatible so long as you chuck out the anti-men, anti-women rhetoric. I've no reason to think this isn't possible and, more importantly, isn't a good approach. Call me an MRA, call me a feminist, call me an egalitarian; what's important is the equality.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

That was not a single source.. the Justice department, SPLC AND the CDC debunked that claim. 11.5% is not greater than 27.3% and EVEN then, the majority of the 11.5% has male perpetrators.

Obnoxious sexist assumption? How many of these places have you been in? I have volunteered my services repeatedly, these guys sometimes have been wheeled in to visit me by paramedics...


http://sfist.com/2012/02/07/man_murdered_in_soma_homeless_shelt.php
http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/skowhegan-man-arrested-alleged-assault-at-homeless-shelter-27419.shtml#.VV2q309VhHw
http://www.thefix.com/content/drugs-violence-nj-halfway90273
http://www.wect.com/story/4907272/homeless-shelter-robbed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2010/03/man_staying_at_homeless_shelte.html
http://www.10news.com/news/man-at-homeless-shelter-punched-robbed
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Worker-beaten-at-homeless-shelter/30371046
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-ohio-homeless-shelter-attack_N.htm
to name a few.

OF course " women can be violent" however, men are MUCH more violent. Men attack both men and women much more than women attack men or women.

" Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." THINK about the number for a second... more than 90% Over 90% of homicides were carried out by males.. That isn't just a little more..

The DOJ and other organizations talk about reported cases. The studies are about what really going on in relationships. There have been many other studies that confirm that men don't report abuse. I'm getting really tired of repeating the same info, you're purposely ignoring the data.

Also the data on reported homicides has nothing to do with relationships since the the overwhelming majority of homicide victims are men. This is a completely different issue that has more to do with men being genetically predisposed to fight (something that I'm sure you people "forget" when you comment on superhero and action movies not having enough female characters but you sure don't when you demonize men using homicide statistics).

It isn't a different issue at all and has EVERYTHING to do with relationships. Lets go to just the data on relationships... Most homicide victims are men, however, most intimate partner victims are FEMALE. It doesn't " demonize men" to look at the homicide statistics, that is just looking at the facts. If we want to stop this, we have to address this very serious issue not pretend like we cannot look at it for what it is because you think that will demonize men. We don;t need to sugar coat this to resolve it, that does nothing to help stop it from happening, and I would like to think that is our ultimate goal is to reduce the numbers of people this happens to. The purpose of the "Battered women's shelter"s IS to prevent homicides by intimate partners. That is why they exist. So of course we have to address the issue not tip toe around it.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Men are more likely to be killed by a male acquaintance than an intimate partner.
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."

There are MANY studies women do not report abuse as well, not reporting abuse happens with BOTH men AND WOMEN.

For example:
"The current study found that 90 percent of women who had encountered the criminal legal system for previous intimate partner abuse victimization's did not contact the police for some or all recurrences."

http://mysite.du.edu/~adeprinc/goverweltonetal2013.pdf
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536.full
Women Afraid to Report Domestic Abuse
https://www.rosebrooks.org/news-holiday-violence.html
Most young women, girls in US don?t report sexual abuse, believe it is part of life
http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2014/04/16/young-women-girls-us-dont-report-sexual-abuse-believe-part-life/

Damn. Well I guess that's it. Men are violent and women need protection. I can see why the MRA are fighting against these stats. The burden of expectation on something like this must suck. But we'll always have eugenics right? Maybe Valerie Solanas was right.

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill men MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

In societies where the strong are considered the ones who refrain from violence and admire understanding and compassion instead, you do not have this problem, they view violence and anger as immature and disgusting like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum instead, and do not respect it.

Which countries are you talking about? I haven't traveled much, so the closest people I know of to what you're describing sound like the Mennonites. Are you talking about the Mennonites? I think it would be a great about face if the answer to man's inhumanity to man was God. I dont know if we want to bring religion into the thread, that may be one more big I issues then we can all deal with here

Speaking towards the general discussion; If the stats that Lil devils x has brought forward are true, how do we go about solving them, without using those same stats to bludgeon males? I can easily envision these stats really screwing up a little boy if he heard them in the wrong tone. Is presentation key?

I am Hopi. ( Which is actually a matriarchal society where women are traditionally the ones to own property,conduct business and control the economy and the men take the woman's name upon marriage)
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/unconquered.html#.VV3XqU9VhHw
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-hopi.html

In addition:
We use these stats to show what happens if we do not work to improve this. This shows that we cannot allow this to continue and we have to be mindful to take action to stop these things. We should use this as an educational opportunity to help teach better methods to handle anger and teach all children from birth up the importance to show respect to all things. We instead teach compassion and understanding and alternative ways to live without hatred. Understanding and compassion can cure hatred.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

If the MRA really wanted to help men, they would be fighting to stop men from killing men, since men kill me MORE than they even kill women. You have to address the issue of why men are killing so much in the first place to be able to put a stop to it. These social constructs can be improved to reduce these events from happening, but you have to be willing to address the problem first.

These things actually occur MORE in societies with the elevated warrior status vs cultures where the warrior considered worse than being a janitor. To start to address these issues you have to address who/ what people consider role models and heroes to look up to, and work from there.

Actually the fact of the matter is due to the race card being used at a drop of a hat, along with the rewarding of poverty with a pay check is what's driving these issues. When people have little to no hope to get out of poverty and are fed handouts, rather than getting hand ups, people start looking on th less then legal side to get ahead. You add into that the fact that most murders are related to some sort of organized crime, and you start to see some real troubling patterns with society. The problem is that a lot of this men killing men is fueled by racial tensions and illegal drug dealing. Then you have social commentators who dismiss the rampant crime and push for more handouts that further the depth of the of the issues. So rather than elevating people what we're getting a lot of is cramming impoverished people into ghettos, where the only way they can get ahead is through either exploiting men around them, which is what women tend to do, or turning to crime, which is what the men do. The problem is less the warrior culture, or using military members as role models and more the fact that crime is essentially the only way so many people see as their path to being financially secure. There's more to it than just that, but that's the foundation these problems are built on.

I am trying to figure out your reasoning here.. You claim that "poverty is rewarded with a paycheck?" and that leads to more murders?
This makes no sense. In cultures where everything is shared equally among the people and warriors are not revered, they have a history of non violence and no need for force. So in societies where they reward poverty with providing equally for all who live there, even going as far to check on them every night to make sure they have had dinner, they do not have these issues. The thought of " fighting someone" isn't thought to be " tough" there, instead it is thought to be gross and disgusting.

I have no idea where you really get that, as most societies like you just described either never make it out of a very primitive state where each day is a fight for survival, or isolated island nations where they have no need to do much but live day to day. Then you have Communist Governments, and I shouldn't have to tell you the worst time for crime in Russia's history was during the soviet union, or that organized crime shot way up under Mao. Either way what you said is Utopian and unrealistic. But that's not the point.

The point is that in the western world there a lot of desperation because poverty is at epidemic levels, rater than do something that would actually fix that though, the politicians just throw handouts at the problem and call it solved, for a few minutes. When people envy the top earners, but are stuck in poverty with no education and no way out, a life of crime becomes the obvious solution. Basically I'm saying that the problem here is lack of education, poor education, rampant poverty, and the fact that criminal behavior is the easiest way to make a lot of money fast. It's not some ultra masculine warrior culture, it's more economics and politics. Most murders happen because gangs battle for control of supply and distribution, these gangs are formed by underprivileged people, these underprivileged people are kept ignorant and impoverish by lazy and dishonest politicians. If we want to start addressing the males murdering males problem it starts with a solid education, which is the gateway to any decent paying job, which redirects latent energy into something constructive, rather than letting it stew into violent destructive tenancies. That's how civilization was built by the way, by harnessing male energy for constructive purposes.