The poverty is created by the warrior society itself and forcing a "survival of the fittest" mentality where everyone wants " to get theirs and screw everyone else" instead of it being our purpose to take care and treat everyone as family. I posted above which society I was referencing. We solve how people are taught to treat one another from birth, and you solve much of the problem right there.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I had to comment on this, the intersection of poverty and civic planning is kind of an interest of mine. Its kind of a cyclic problem right?KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
The problem using the Hopi as an example is that it's a small scale, and honestly primitive tribal society, these kind of ideas don't scale up very well. They keep trying to do things like this in the Arab world, where for a long time women led the initiative. All that's happened in scaling up any tribal society is warfare. Conflict is human nature and pointing out one small group does not prove that the "warrior culture" as you call it is what causes the problem. The problem is deeper and more complex on a societal level than that, but a huge driving force in murder rates in today's world is due to poverty, poor education, and the fact that crime is far easier than doing things legally. That last part especially applies to everyone who wants to make a lot of money in a reasonable time frame. If you take the rewards that drive development in society away,society stagnates.Lil devils x said:
The problem with minimum income is it propagates the same stagnation I just mentioned. When everyone is comfortable you get no innovation and invention, so things just stay the same. Besides that no society can afford to do that with out violating the property rights of people who did put in the hard work. Which means it absolutely robs all incentive, especially when you have a guaranteed minimum income. That makes it almost impossible to motivate one's self to do better.Gorrila_thinktank said:
Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before most people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated. The way constructions are built are through thousands of people working together to make it happen voluntarily. Hopi are " experts" at working together.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Now you're arguing reducing the quality of life of people which has never flown. Either way a single unified government like the US does not work like a small(er) independent tribe. While the Hopi were able to maintain good relations they generally seem to have been big time traders too, that points to the fact that they still exploited human nature, and they exploited it for constructive methods. Still they wouldn't work as well on a large scale like most modern nations, especially with so many conflicting priorities in modern society between individuals and groups. Besides that you're still whitewashing the issue the Hopi often had to defend themselves when someone else went on the war path, so had to maintain martial might, which they also had to rely on as traders. It's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't work in practice in a world full of flawed humans.Lil devils x said:Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I see what your saying, and I agree with the principle that you are saying it in. But I`m still not sold on the practical aspects as you have stated them. Specifically, I am a Christian, and even when our capstone ethical principle is "... likewise, love your neighbor as yourself..." we can see just how badly that has been carried out. I'm skeptical of any group that claims utopia, and the links you gave about the Hopi people sound utopian.Lil devils x said:I am Hopi. ( Which is actually a matriarchal society where women are traditionally the ones to own property,conduct business and control the economy and the men take the woman's name upon marriage)Gorrila_thinktank said:Which countries are you talking about? I haven't traveled much, so the closest people I know of to what you're describing sound like the Mennonites. Are you talking about the Mennonites? I think it would be a great about face if the answer to man's inhumanity to man was God. I dont know if we want to bring religion into the thread, that may be one more big I issues then we can all deal with hereLil devils x said:
Speaking towards the general discussion; If the stats that Lil devils x has brought forward are true, how do we go about solving them, without using those same stats to bludgeon males? I can easily envision these stats really screwing up a little boy if he heard them in the wrong tone. Is presentation key?
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/unconquered.html#.VV3XqU9VhHw
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-hopi.html
In addition:
We use these stats to show what happens if we do not work to improve this. This shows hat we cannot allow this to continue and we have to be mindful to take action to stop these things. We should use this as an educational opportunity to help teach better methods to handle anger and teach all children from birth up the importance to show respect to all things. We instead teach compassion and understanding and alternative ways to live without hatred. Understanding and compassion can cure hatred.
In what way are you reducing the quality of life? I was not aware that I said anything about reducing the quality of life. No, the US government would never work for the Hopi, due to the core belief you cannot have someone else make your decisions for you. Core Hopi beliefs are in conflict with a representative government. Hopi rarely ever had to defend themselves, as the Hopi were quite generous, not " exploitative" as you suggested. Many tribes came to Hopi for help and were treated as family, as that is part of core Hopi beliefs. Even the Spanish were welcomed to live alongside the Hopi at first until they became bored and left. The Spanish were an issue later, when they were committing atrocities against other tribes and those tribes came to the Hopi for help and even then the majority of the tribe condemned those Hopi who defeated the Spanish, as it is the "Hopi way" to take care of all things and replace evil with good" instead of participating in it.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:Now you're arguing reducing the quality of life of people which has never flown. Either way a single unified government like the US does not work like a small(er) independent tribe. While the Hopi were able to maintain good relations they generally seem to have been big time traders too, that points to the fact that they still exploited human nature, and they exploited it for constructive methods. Still they wouldn't work as well on a large scale like most modern nations, especially with so many conflicting priorities in modern society between individuals and groups. Besides that you're still whitewashing the issue the Hopi often had to defend themselves when someone else went on the war path, so had to maintain martial might, which they also had to rely on as traders. It's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't work in practice in a world full of flawed humans.Lil devils x said:Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I'm not saying the Hopi were exploitative, I'm saying they found a social way to exploit human nature for their positive net gain. The way you explain it is as a group of saints. Those around them wouldn't have let them survive had what you say been absolutely true. While friendly societies exist and work, they also have to stand up for themselves. You're projecting a very unrealistic pie in the sky version of the history. Either way as things work and as civilization works the Hopi way isn't exactly practical.Lil devils x said:In what way are you reducing the quality of life? I was not aware that I said anything about reducing the quality of life. No, the US government would never work for the Hopi, due to the core belief you cannot have someone else make your decisions for you. Core Hopi beliefs are in conflict with a representative government. Hopi rarely ever had to defend themselves, as the Hopi were quite generous, not " exploitative" as you suggested. Many tribes came to Hopi for help and were treated as family, as that is part of core Hopi beliefs. Even the Spanish were welcomed to live alongside the Hopi at first until they became bored and left. The Spanish were an issue later, when they were committing atrocities against other tribes and those tribes came to the Hopi for help and even then the majority of the tribe condemned those Hopi who defeated the Spanish, as it is the "Hopi way" to take care of all things and replace evil with good" instead of participating in it.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:Now you're arguing reducing the quality of life of people which has never flown. Either way a single unified government like the US does not work like a small(er) independent tribe. While the Hopi were able to maintain good relations they generally seem to have been big time traders too, that points to the fact that they still exploited human nature, and they exploited it for constructive methods. Still they wouldn't work as well on a large scale like most modern nations, especially with so many conflicting priorities in modern society between individuals and groups. Besides that you're still whitewashing the issue the Hopi often had to defend themselves when someone else went on the war path, so had to maintain martial might, which they also had to rely on as traders. It's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't work in practice in a world full of flawed humans.Lil devils x said:Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I'm kind of gritting my teeth here. I really dont want to sound like i'm attacking you, but did you listen to the radio segment? -->See! theres no way to say that like im not trying to pick a fight!KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I don't see it as " Utpoian" I see it as practical, nothing is " perfect" however it may sound Utopian due to the religious beliefs being a lifestyle. Hopi are firm believers in self determination, that we have the power to create a paradise on this earth or destroy it and turn it into a hell of suffering. That our actions and choices will determine what we will be forced to live through on this earth. If we pollute it and damage it we will suffer from the damaged environment and our children and grandchildren will suffer. IF we are mindful and take care of all things, we can build a paradise together. Most people want to build a paradise and are willing to work for it. That is how things are done in Hopi society, due to those core beliefs. The Hopi have not been colonized exactly.. Some still live has they have for thousands of years, Hopi have never fought a war against the US or been relocated. LOLGorrila_thinktank said:I see what your saying, and I agree with the principle that you are saying it in. But I`m still not sold on the practical aspects as you have stated them. Specifically, I am a Christian, and even when our capstone ethical principle is "... likewise, love your neighbor as yourself..." we can see just how badly that has been carried out. I'm skeptical of any group that claims utopia, and the links you gave about the Hopi people sound utopian.Lil devils x said:I am Hopi. ( Which is actually a matriarchal society where women are traditionally the ones to own property,conduct business and control the economy and the men take the woman's name upon marriage)Gorrila_thinktank said:Which countries are you talking about? I haven't traveled much, so the closest people I know of to what you're describing sound like the Mennonites. Are you talking about the Mennonites? I think it would be a great about face if the answer to man's inhumanity to man was God. I dont know if we want to bring religion into the thread, that may be one more big I issues then we can all deal with hereLil devils x said:
Speaking towards the general discussion; If the stats that Lil devils x has brought forward are true, how do we go about solving them, without using those same stats to bludgeon males? I can easily envision these stats really screwing up a little boy if he heard them in the wrong tone. Is presentation key?
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/unconquered.html#.VV3XqU9VhHw
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-hopi.html
In addition:
We use these stats to show what happens if we do not work to improve this. This shows hat we cannot allow this to continue and we have to be mindful to take action to stop these things. We should use this as an educational opportunity to help teach better methods to handle anger and teach all children from birth up the importance to show respect to all things. We instead teach compassion and understanding and alternative ways to live without hatred. Understanding and compassion can cure hatred.
I'm not going to hold you to the anwser, but how do you see Hopi Voluntaryism scaling up into a post-industrial? what would it have looked like if the Hopi had not been colonized?
It actually is extremely practical.. Even the US military decided not to attack them after speaking with the Hopi.. Violence is not the only way to resolve issues, and that is how the Hopi people have survived as the longest continuously occupied settlement in North America. Not through war, but through being experts at " working together". It is not exploitative to work for the better good of society and benefit for doing so.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:I'm not saying the Hopi were exploitative, I'm saying they found a social way to exploit human nature for their positive net gain. The way you explain it is as a group of saints. Those around them wouldn't have let them survive had what you say been absolutely true. While friendly societies exist and work, they also have to stand up for themselves. You're projecting a very unrealistic pie in the sky version of the history. Either way as things work and as civilization works the Hopi way isn't exactly practical.Lil devils x said:In what way are you reducing the quality of life? I was not aware that I said anything about reducing the quality of life. No, the US government would never work for the Hopi, due to the core belief you cannot have someone else make your decisions for you. Core Hopi beliefs are in conflict with a representative government. Hopi rarely ever had to defend themselves, as the Hopi were quite generous, not " exploitative" as you suggested. Many tribes came to Hopi for help and were treated as family, as that is part of core Hopi beliefs. Even the Spanish were welcomed to live alongside the Hopi at first until they became bored and left. The Spanish were an issue later, when they were committing atrocities against other tribes and those tribes came to the Hopi for help and even then the majority of the tribe condemned those Hopi who defeated the Spanish, as it is the "Hopi way" to take care of all things and replace evil with good" instead of participating in it.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:Now you're arguing reducing the quality of life of people which has never flown. Either way a single unified government like the US does not work like a small(er) independent tribe. While the Hopi were able to maintain good relations they generally seem to have been big time traders too, that points to the fact that they still exploited human nature, and they exploited it for constructive methods. Still they wouldn't work as well on a large scale like most modern nations, especially with so many conflicting priorities in modern society between individuals and groups. Besides that you're still whitewashing the issue the Hopi often had to defend themselves when someone else went on the war path, so had to maintain martial might, which they also had to rely on as traders. It's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't work in practice in a world full of flawed humans.Lil devils x said:Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I read through some of your responses to other people in the thread and take exception to some of your claims. Firstly, that the numbers on male victims of demostic abuse are skewed because studies don't account for male on male violence in homosexual intimate partner relationships and secondly, that women are more likely to be victims of domestic abuse.Lil devils x said:
Just to chime in Lil devils x, remember, KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime is transgender, she (KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime, im pretty sure you said you were MtF, sorry if im wrong) owes a lot to modern society due to the advances in medical care modern society has given her. Give this, can't you see how she would be a bit leery of a pre-industrial society being held up as something wonderful? Thats a pretty tough dichotomy to have to choose between.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:I'm not saying the Hopi were exploitative, I'm saying they found a social way to exploit human nature for their positive net gain. The way you explain it is as a group of saints. Those around them wouldn't have let them survive had what you say been absolutely true. While friendly societies exist and work, they also have to stand up for themselves. You're projecting a very unrealistic pie in the sky version of the history. Either way as things work and as civilization works the Hopi way isn't exactly practical.Lil devils x said:In what way are you reducing the quality of life? I was not aware that I said anything about reducing the quality of life. No, the US government would never work for the Hopi, due to the core belief you cannot have someone else make your decisions for you. Core Hopi beliefs are in conflict with a representative government. Hopi rarely ever had to defend themselves, as the Hopi were quite generous, not " exploitative" as you suggested. Many tribes came to Hopi for help and were treated as family, as that is part of core Hopi beliefs. Even the Spanish were welcomed to live alongside the Hopi at first until they became bored and left. The Spanish were an issue later, when they were committing atrocities against other tribes and those tribes came to the Hopi for help and even then the majority of the tribe condemned those Hopi who defeated the Spanish, as it is the "Hopi way" to take care of all things and replace evil with good" instead of participating in it.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:Now you're arguing reducing the quality of life of people which has never flown. Either way a single unified government like the US does not work like a small(er) independent tribe. While the Hopi were able to maintain good relations they generally seem to have been big time traders too, that points to the fact that they still exploited human nature, and they exploited it for constructive methods. Still they wouldn't work as well on a large scale like most modern nations, especially with so many conflicting priorities in modern society between individuals and groups. Besides that you're still whitewashing the issue the Hopi often had to defend themselves when someone else went on the war path, so had to maintain martial might, which they also had to rely on as traders. It's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't work in practice in a world full of flawed humans.Lil devils x said:Basically traditional Hopi culture is to have small families and live in apartment buildings before apartment buildings were cool. In what way would you think it "not scale up?" The only reason why technology is not used by the Hopi is due to a promise to the earth to take care of the earth and all that dwell upon it and they refuse to use anything that has been shown to harm the earth. Hopi are extreme environmentalists, before people understood what that meant. Outside of that, Hopi were at the center of trade for North and South America for an extremely long time, unlike what some tend to believe the tribes were far from isolated.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Like I said before it's wonderful and idealistic. Unfortunately that idealistic way of thinking oft flies straight in the face of human nature and eventually it would have caught with the Hopi one way, or another. That said the earth will eventually not be able to support human growth and expansion, even if we maximize all of our resource usage, the Earth is a finite resource. Eventually we'll have to start building space colonies and when ever we crack the light speed barrier, we'll also have to look into colonizing other planets in other star systems. One day our planet will die, one day our sun will die. We're going to need to be ready for that eventuality, we're going to need to move, because I for one see human survival going on much longer than today as we continue to advance.Lil devils x said:
Nope. That sounds straight up utopian.Lil devils x said:I don't see it as " Utpoian" I see it as practical, nothing is " perfect" however it may sound Utopian due to the religious beliefs being a lifestyle. Hopi are firm believers in self determination, that we have the power to create a paradise on this earth or destroy it and turn it into a hell of suffering. That our actions and choices will determine what we will be forced to live through on this earth. If we pollute it and damage it we will suffer from the damaged environment and our children and grandchildren will suffer. IF we are mindful and take care of all things, we can build a paradise together. Most people want to build a paradise and are willing to work for it. That is how things are done in Hopi society, due to those core beliefs. The Hopi have not been colonized exactly.. Some still live has they have for thousands of years, Hopi have never fought a war against the US or been relocated. LOLGorrila_thinktank said:I see what your saying, and I agree with the principle that you are saying it in. But I`m still not sold on the practical aspects as you have stated them. Specifically, I am a Christian, and even when our capstone ethical principle is "... likewise, love your neighbor as yourself..." we can see just how badly that has been carried out. I'm skeptical of any group that claims utopia, and the links you gave about the Hopi people sound utopian.Lil devils x said:I am Hopi. ( Which is actually a matriarchal society where women are traditionally the ones to own property,conduct business and control the economy and the men take the woman's name upon marriage)Gorrila_thinktank said:Which countries are you talking about? I haven't traveled much, so the closest people I know of to what you're describing sound like the Mennonites. Are you talking about the Mennonites? I think it would be a great about face if the answer to man's inhumanity to man was God. I dont know if we want to bring religion into the thread, that may be one more big I issues then we can all deal with hereLil devils x said:
Speaking towards the general discussion; If the stats that Lil devils x has brought forward are true, how do we go about solving them, without using those same stats to bludgeon males? I can easily envision these stats really screwing up a little boy if he heard them in the wrong tone. Is presentation key?
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/unconquered.html#.VV3XqU9VhHw
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-hopi.html
In addition:
We use these stats to show what happens if we do not work to improve this. This shows hat we cannot allow this to continue and we have to be mindful to take action to stop these things. We should use this as an educational opportunity to help teach better methods to handle anger and teach all children from birth up the importance to show respect to all things. We instead teach compassion and understanding and alternative ways to live without hatred. Understanding and compassion can cure hatred.
I'm not going to hold you to the anwser, but how do you see Hopi Voluntaryism scaling up into a post-industrial? what would it have looked like if the Hopi had not been colonized?
Scaling up, isn't really an issue considering Hopi have always been preparing for a more populated earth to begin with. According to Hopi beliefs, the " Hopi way" the life plan was designed so 1) there would be enough resources to take care of everyone 2) the Hopi live in apartments to reduce the amount of space taken up and to allow for more people into a smaller area, 3)people living together in close quarters can do so very well when taught the principles of respect, compassion and understanding a part of their life plan from birth. The way the Hopi live is thousands of people in compact apartment like buildings, close together already.
The primary difference is everything among the Hopi is shared equally regardless of social status, everyone is cared for equally. Every night for example, many women go door to door to every house making sure everyone has had dinner for the night. By doing so, they not only make sure everyone has been fed, they notice immediately if someone is sick, injured, in danger, or needs help around the house. This is part of " the Hopi way" ( Hopi lifeplan)
You have to realise that the proportion of feminists who have even heard of the above is really small. It's a movement spanning hundreds of countries, hundreds of millions of people. The percentage of those who have heard of these minor internet figures is relatively tiny, let alone those who "side" with them.Nieroshai said:
Think where you got this impression. If it's from minor Internet figures and bloggers, that would indicate a pretty big failure of perspective.
The unfortunate part of that is that feminism isn't equality in gender rights, even the best feminists only support women's rights, there is nothing done to help lessen the gender biases against men by feminists. Feminists also completely ignore things like prostate cancer and battered men, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but their goals are female focused. Also the loudest platforms in feminism are misandrists and TERFs, not saying it's the majority of feminists, but it is the loudest and most powerful section. Mens Rights types are much the same, except they focus on oppressive attitudes, laws, and treatments against men, and their loudest and most powerful section happens to be made up of homophobes, transphobes, gay separatists, and misogynists. So two different groups, similar target goals with different focus, and the same essential problem with extremists who make the movements look bad.Someone Depressing said:
Well, since feminism is centered around women's rights I'm not all that concerned with their focus on that topic.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Yeah that was the point I was getting at there. Too many people flat out vilify whole movements, because of a few raging morons who happen to have the loudest and most influential public platforms. Which is one of the reasons I dislike the entire LGBT community, because there are too many conflicting interests between all four subsets for us to really bond together. That's basically the same problem that egalitarian movement as a whole has, it's too broad with too many individually focused agendas to avoid conflict of interest and focus.Lightknight said: