Mentally Ill Teenage Girl Dies From Suffocation During Exorcism

[game-lover]

Religious debate aside, reading the article made me think the following thing:

According to a police spokesperson, this girl had gone through this ritual before and was fortunate enough to survive those previous times. So I wanna know, if this exorcism had been done before and they still thought she was possessed by a demon... maybe they should have fucking tried something else instead of just the same damn thing.

You can also see according to the article that according to the spokesperson of a Buddhist sect that uses that ritual is that it isn't even meant for exorcisms at all. It's supposed be like a blessing to help bring your wishes to life. And obviously no one is ever bound underneath the water.


So either way... the father and the monk were just wrong on every single count.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that Christianity endures, it (and many other religions) being judged by people not ever remotely qualified to do so.

Who WOULD be qualified to bash your religion, if you don't mind me asking?

I agree that some people bash religions for stupid reasons. This topic too has nothing to do with religion. The monk who did this was obviously not acting in accordance to his religion, but was just doing what he thought was right (and with him being an idiot, fucking it up even more). I'm sure religions help many people deal with life, but they also give many idiots the conviction to do what they please in the name of god (or whatever entity that religion worships). Stupid atheists then bash the religion for causing it, which is silly because it was stupidity that caused it, not the religion.

Stupid people are everywhere, in every religion or lack thereof, and in every country. Don't blame the religion or country for the stupidity of some of its members, blame yourself for not even trying to fix the problem.

Perhaps someone with a Ph.D in Theological studies...

But your right, although, how do you fix stupid?

So.. only the religiously inclined can criticize religion at any level or point in time, now? That clearly does not turn the concept into an even more self-perpetuated echo chamber of ideals and belief's than several religions in the global community already are. World religion courses are rather common in this modern age, and of course, there is this friendly thing called the internet in which to research modern day and ancient faiths of the world.

It's essentially like saying you have to have a degree in biology and microbiology in order to even begin to ask questions or pose alternative ideas (within scientific terms) when debating Evolutionary concepts..

OT: Honestly? Take the girl to a fucking doctor. Fear is no excuse to leave actual medical professionals out of a clear situations that demands mental health professionals to take charge of the situation before a religious group "suggests" demonic possession, or even after that fact. Science should always take precedence in the area of the natural (which includes the human body and the mind), lest you allow what are (at best) myths and stories to "fill" those "blanks" and potentially kill someone..

 

[megamanenm]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that religion endures, it is being judged by many people not even remotely qualified to do so.

As an Atheist I have to agree. Sure, I don't believe exorcisms are real, but bloody hell I have no proof that they're impossible. And I certainly won't go around calling people who believe otherwise "backward idiots."

The religion-bashing on these forums can get really overpowering at times.

That said, what happened in this case was disgusting and the monk should be put on trial for this. And the father.

So what DO you call people who totally believe in a practice that has no evidence whatsoever that it does anything besides harm people? Actually I wouldn't call them backward idiots either. They're worse than that.

 

[Woodsey]

I think it says it all when its revealed they ended up calling an ambulance after their stupid antics had totally fucked up.

 

[DarthFennec]

`We just held her head under water for five minutes to remove the `evil spirits', we didn't mean any physical harm' ... wow, people constantly surprise me with how stupid they are ...

Christians of the world ... please tell me that this is an exceptional case. I'm perfectly fine if you want to believe in demons and possession and spirits and all that crap, as long as I know that the vast majority of these `exorcisms' are relatively humane ...

 

[DasDestroyer]

Oh, Exorcism is real alright. Doesn't make it any less silly though.

 

[Duruznik]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that religion endures, it is being judged by many people not even remotely qualified to do so.

As an Atheist I have to agree. Sure, I don't believe exorcisms are real, but bloody hell I have no proof that they're impossible. And I certainly won't go around calling people who believe otherwise "backward idiots."

The religion-bashing on these forums can get really overpowering at times.

That said, what happened in this case was disgusting and the monk should be put on trial for this. And the father.

So what DO you call people who totally believe in a practice that has no evidence whatsoever that it does anything besides harm people? Actually I wouldn't call them backward idiots either. They're worse than that.

I don't paint them all with the same brush, for starters. I know enough to admit that there's no proof that exorcisms NEVER work- there are plenty of cases where a patient heals which can be attributed to luck or to religion, depending on your beliefs. I don't assume they're all ignorant fuckwits like the folks features in the article. Plenty of religious peopple preform exorcisms but know enough not to submerge their child's head in water. Weird, huh?

 

[HandsomeJack]

How did I know that this thread would become just another shallow "Lets all vent our hate at religion" thread... Seriously, I know the internet is the land of no accountability so people just act without any tact whatsoever, but there was some serious potential to this thread until it became flooded with people who think they are smart by painting with a broad brush that religious people are either idiots or insane.

Catholic exorcists, for example, have to recieve training in psychology and psychiatry in order to address the likelyhood that any given "possessed" person is simply mentally ill. The vast majority of exorcism requests to Catholic exorcists end up being turned over to mental health experts. To paint with a broad brush that anyone who 1) manages to learn 7 languages 2) must achieve a masters in theology and 3) at least a masters (if not doctorate) in psychology, must clearly be an idiot simply for being religious...? Cant we simply say "I dissagree with the conclusion you've come to" without being so flippant and rude about it?

It is worth noting that this is clearly not the norm for how exorcisms are handled, either in the eastern or the western world. From reading the article and from what I know of Bhuddism it sounds like this priest attempted to mirror a western Baptismal Exorcism (where, as implied, the person is repeatedly baptized), but had tragically failed to understant the process (water and oil, though used frequently, would only be in small amounts and not constantly, only frequently, if done correctly). This sounds less to me like "Religious people are stupid" in general (Exorcism has a HIGHER success rate for treating people who claim possesstion than medication or counciling combined) and more like the religious equivallent of Medical Malpractice.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that religion endures, it is being judged by many people not even remotely qualified to do so.

As an Atheist I have to agree. Sure, I don't believe exorcisms are real, but bloody hell I have no proof that they're impossible. And I certainly won't go around calling people who believe otherwise "backward idiots."

The religion-bashing on these forums can get really overpowering at times.

That said, what happened in this case was disgusting and the monk should be put on trial for this. And the father.

So what DO you call people who totally believe in a practice that has no evidence whatsoever that it does anything besides harm people? Actually I wouldn't call them backward idiots either. They're worse than that.

I don't paint them all with the same brush, for starters. I know enough to admit that there's no proof that exorcisms NEVER work- there are plenty of cases where a patient heals which can be attributed to luck or to religion, depending on your beliefs. I don't assume they're all ignorant fuckwits like the folks features in the article. Plenty of religious peopple preform exorcisms but know enough not to submerge their child's head in water. Weird, huh?

While I do happen to agree for the most part, the bolded is 99.9% of the time your friendly application of the Placebo effect. And while the placebo effect may produce results that may seem literal enough, using such results as to create an actual, scientific statistic on the likelihood of an exorcism working the way it is intended do as described by religious dogma is rather disingenuous and misleading to say the least.

 

[Fayathon]

`We just held her head under water for five minutes to remove the `evil spirits', we didn't mean any physical harm' ... wow, people constantly surprise me with how stupid they are ...

Christians of the world ... please tell me that this is an exceptional case. I'm perfectly fine if you want to believe in demons and possession and spirits and all that crap, as long as I know that the vast majority of these `exorcisms' are relatively humane ...

Normally I don't get in on these threads other than to read and shake my head in disdain, but you need to re-read OP, it was a couple of Buddhists.

OT: If you're going to 'exorcise' someone take them to a goddamn priest (or whatever your religion's version is) and have it done properly. That said, take them to the hospital first to see if modern medicine can do anything, as that will typically have the answer you need, even if it is just identifying what is wrong with the individual.

 

[Zorg Machine]

I feel like I'm telling a child that santa isn't real but...demons are not real. to the people who say "well it might be true" I just have to stop you and say, it isn't. Demonic possession doesn't happen and every single priest or parent who tries it are psychotic, abusive people.

I just don't understand what's going through peoples minds, it's like someone proposing that we drill holes in the heads of people with migraines to let the spirits out. It's like a man going into a hospital with molten lead to slather patients with it.

It's barbaric and stupid. Not "a theory that probably isn't true", it's just stupid.

 

[Christopher Dudgeon]

My Sweet mother F**king Gods of Gaming!!! I can't believe there are still people that do this in todays modern society!!!

 

[Duruznik]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that religion endures, it is being judged by many people not even remotely qualified to do so.

As an Atheist I have to agree. Sure, I don't believe exorcisms are real, but bloody hell I have no proof that they're impossible. And I certainly won't go around calling people who believe otherwise "backward idiots."

The religion-bashing on these forums can get really overpowering at times.

That said, what happened in this case was disgusting and the monk should be put on trial for this. And the father.

So what DO you call people who totally believe in a practice that has no evidence whatsoever that it does anything besides harm people? Actually I wouldn't call them backward idiots either. They're worse than that.

I don't paint them all with the same brush, for starters. I know enough to admit that there's no proof that exorcisms NEVER work- there are plenty of cases where a patient heals which can be attributed to luck or to religion, depending on your beliefs. I don't assume they're all ignorant fuckwits like the folks features in the article. Plenty of religious peopple preform exorcisms but know enough not to submerge their child's head in water. Weird, huh?

While I do happen to agree for the most part, the bolded is 99.9% of the time your friendly application of the Placebo effect. And while the placebo effect may produce results that may seem literal enough, using such results as to create an actual, scientific statistic on the likelihood of an exorcism working the way it is intended do as described by religious dogma is rather disingenuous and misleading to say the least.

True, there is no scientific backing or any way to verify that excorcisms work (like some organized religious institues might want us to believe), but because there is no absolute scientific proof they DON'T work either, I feel I cannot classify every single person who believes in them as an "idiot."

I just think the matter needs to be approached with logic. Sure, if you believe there's a demon in your child I guess you should try to get it out (if that's your thing), but doing anything which you know will harm her health is fucking stupid. Chanting and the like won't hurt, though, that's for sure.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

(Exorcism has a HIGHER success rate for treating people who claim possesstion than medication or counciling combined)

That is, yet again, simply explained by the Placebo effect. If these people genuinely believe they are possessed by their religion's version of demons, then obviously in a purely psychological fashion, if they are being treated with something that is said to be a direct cure for their perceived ailment, then their mind is going to react even stronger in opposition to that perceived ailment than it would be towards procedures that do not directly assume this demonic possession to be real.

Also, the statement above is rather circular logic. Exorcism has a high success rate for treating people whom claim possession over medication or counseling combined. This high success rate is due participants of an exorcism claiming they have been cured of demonic possession. Participants of exorcism believe they are being cured of demonic possession because they have been told that possession is real, and that their actions are a direct relation to possession. Exorcism has a high success rate for treating people whom claim possession over medication and counseling combined. Ad verbitum infinity. It's akin to someone whom believes they were abducted by aliens being adverse to people whom tell them that their abduction experience can be attributed to many mental ailments that are recognized in medical sciences, but yet they react very comfortably with people whom tell them that everything they claim to have experienced is direct evidence of alien abduction, henceforth strengthening the scenario of a "real" alien abduction in their mind for future cases as a coping mechanism.

 

[TheDoctor455]

Exorcism is real, but it can be hard from distincting a demonic possession from mental illness sometimes. We are only human after all.

Exorcisms are nothing more than an excuse for the religious zealots to torture each other.
There are no fucking demons. There are no gods either. There's just us stupid humans.

This wasn't an effort to save a child's life here, this was torture and murder.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

WaitwaitwitwhoawhoawhoaHOLDONAMINUTE!

Kumamoto Prefectural Police said the teenager died of suffocation and that she had undergone the ritual a hundred times before.

.....Uh...Am I reading this right?

The girl had gone through this waterfall exorcism thing around a hundred times already? ....If that's the case....IS EVERYONE INVOLVED FREAKIN STUPID? You'd think after a hundred failures, you'd begin to rethink your opinion/strategy...

Sheez, what the hell....


Oh, and also:

A spokesperson for the Nakayamashingoshoshu's (a sect of Buddhism) main temple in Kiyama said: ?The water rite is done to bring one's wishes to reality, but of course you cannot exorcise with it. We also do not instruct to bound the arms and legs when doing the ritual.?

......So the waterfall thingy is not even supposed to be for exorcisms...and they tried to use it anyway? And they did it WRONG too?

...Yup. Total morons involved in this tragedy. Totally and completely.

 

[Teckdeth]

How did I know that this thread would become just another shallow "Lets all vent our hate at religion" thread... Seriously, I know the internet is the land of no accountability so people just act without any tact whatsoever, but there was some serious potential to this thread until it became flooded with people who think they are smart by painting with a broad brush that religious people are either idiots or insane.

Catholic exorcists, for example, have to recieve training in psychology and psychiatry in order to address the likelyhood that any given "possessed" person is simply mentally ill. The vast majority of exorcism requests to Catholic exorcists end up being turned over to mental health experts.

I agree with you that it's a shame this has devolved into a futile religious people vs. athiests discussion, however, there's no way you can discuss something like this without this debate arising. Because of religious paranoia, a girl is now dead. This is a fact. No, she was not possessed, because the concept of possession is ridiculous.

Though your comments about catholic exorcists are quite comforting, I still can't call this reasonable behaviour. Sure it's great that first they look at the case in terms of modern medical science/psychology, and that most people claiming possession end up in the hands of mental health experts, but surely a middle-man can be cut out here. Why consider possession at all? Surely that just adds paranoia to an already troubled mind.

So yeah, I guess I disagree with the conclusion you've come too.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Yes, please, cue the flood of arrogant, self-righteous dribble bashing religion.

Am I religious, somewhat. Even if I was not, the obnoxious prattle that many people spew forth would sicken me. I grow weary of the constant assault that religion endures, it is being judged by many people not even remotely qualified to do so.

As an Atheist I have to agree. Sure, I don't believe exorcisms are real, but bloody hell I have no proof that they're impossible. And I certainly won't go around calling people who believe otherwise "backward idiots."

The religion-bashing on these forums can get really overpowering at times.

That said, what happened in this case was disgusting and the monk should be put on trial for this. And the father.

So what DO you call people who totally believe in a practice that has no evidence whatsoever that it does anything besides harm people? Actually I wouldn't call them backward idiots either. They're worse than that.

I don't paint them all with the same brush, for starters. I know enough to admit that there's no proof that exorcisms NEVER work- there are plenty of cases where a patient heals which can be attributed to luck or to religion, depending on your beliefs. I don't assume they're all ignorant fuckwits like the folks features in the article. Plenty of religious peopple preform exorcisms but know enough not to submerge their child's head in water. Weird, huh?

While I do happen to agree for the most part, the bolded is 99.9% of the time your friendly application of the Placebo effect. And while the placebo effect may produce results that may seem literal enough, using such results as to create an actual, scientific statistic on the likelihood of an exorcism working the way it is intended do as described by religious dogma is rather disingenuous and misleading to say the least.

True, there is no scientific backing or any way to verify that excorcisms work (like some organized religious institues might want us to believe), but because there is no absolute scientific proof they DON'T work either, I feel I cannot classify every single person who believes in them as an "idiot."

I just think the matter needs to be approached with logic. Sure, if you believe there's a demon in your child I guess you should try to get it out (if that's your thing), but doing anything which you know will harm her health is fucking stupid. Chanting and the like won't hurt, though, that's for sure.

I only consider the people mentioned in this scenario to be "idiots" due to the fact that they let fear attributed by their belief's overwhelm common (and better) judgment to exhaust all avenues into medical science first before they brought her to the monks to perform the ritual. If they go by such route first, I have no problem if they consider exorcism after they have exhausted those options to be "valid" for "curing" the participants mental ailments. (Not to mention, they had failed to produce any viable results from a hundred previous attempts at this ritual in the past, and not even the "right" one at that, by said religion's dogma. They really should have gotten the clue after the second or third time..)

Although I would be skeptical of the chanting and such not being adverse to a mentally unstable individual's mental health. Repeated statements and phrases are very influential upon people with schizophrenia, depression and multiple personality disorders, in usually very negative terms. After all, a horde of people chanting "demons, demons, release this individual!" over you while you are suffering from conditions that may make the paranoia of this perceived ailment your mind has convinced you you have all the more dangerous and unpredictable, I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if they suddenly start believing they are a "demon" and attack someone, or on the other side, they could go into cardiac arrest due to the overwhelming stress of the situation.

I'm sure you can see my concerns clear enough in the above, no?

 

[rancher of monsters]

Literally can't believe that in the first few answers there were people going 'Yes, as a Christian I believe in exorcism'
I have nothing constructive to add. I WANT to say I hadn't even realised that people with internet access could still hold such outdated beliefs but then I've seen people selling spirit familiars online so I guess it's time to give in, we're not going to get better.

OH and for the people whining 'Aw religion bashing SO SAD'

This is about a girl who was killed by an exorcism, and I love that you've made it about how repressed you are.

Dude let's be honest, very few people from both sides seem to geniunely care for that girl. If you do congratulations, you're one of the few decent people on the internet, pat yourself on the back and have a cookie. But don't judge those people who are defending their beliefs because that's only natural. If some insane atheist went down the street punching babies while screaming how there is no God wouldn't you expect atheist to defend themselves when religous people tried to pin that guy on them? Likewise, we see someone here who has clearly gone against the normal rituals of his faith so why should all religious people have to be quiet when atheist use this to claim how wrong there beliefs are? It's just as bad to use the girl as a scapegoat against religion in general as it is to ignore her completely.

I honestly wish this had never been posted though, it's sad that the only way we'll remeber this girl is a religous argument.