Methane Booms Could Make Economy Go Bust

[lacktheknack]

They fulfil demand.

Everyone in first-world countries demands.

Stop demanding and they'll stop fulfilling.

I've always thought of this world view like I do people who depend rapists. [The She was asking for it crowd.]

I know that sounds hyperbolic but honestly "profit for the sake of profits without any consideration for humanity" is one of the most perverse beliefs that people have ever accepted.

I figure the reason most people accept it is they think that belief means that someday they'll be rich too.

Capitalism is (to me) the world's most destructive and perverse religion.

Yeah, that's hyperbolic.

Do you want to use plastics, electronics, electricity, etc?

Because according to environmentalists, you're wrecking the world. And that's not hyperbole.

There are alternate energy sources and material sources, yes, but none are even close to replacing what fossil fuels and oil have on offer, even if you combine them. The only way they'll feasibly work (barring a crazy developmental breakthrough) is if we shrink down worldwide demand for these fuels to something manageable. But demand is not shrinking, it's only growing.

And you're a big part of the problem. Just as much as I am, probably. Point fingers all you want, but as long as you're pointing via computer keyboard, it's pretty goddamned hollow.

It has nothing to do with profits. It has everything to do with the insanity that is consumer consumption.

It's high time that people stop blaming corporations for selling them things when they won't stop buying them.

 

[LordMonty]

I really hoped i would not live to see the end of this world it will make me very sad. But we get to makr fqart jokes at the end of it all so i guess i'll find a good one by then.

 

[flarty]

Forgive me if I take this with a pinch of salt given how often these kind of predictions turn out to be accurate. Although a part of me does find the idea that the economy and potentially society might be taken down by methane gas rather than an asteroid or a zombie apocalypse to be kind of amusing.

I also like the fact you have a Madoka Magica avatar.

How often does these kind of predictions turn out to be accurate, never. Scientists have been far too conservative with their guess and climate change seems to been happening faster than intially thought.

Yeah, that's hyperbolic.

Do you want to use plastics, electronics, electricity, etc?

Because according to environmentalists, you're wrecking the world. And that's not hyperbole.

There are alternate energy sources and material sources, yes, but none are even close to replacing what fossil fuels and oil have on offer, even if you combine them. The only way they'll feasibly work (barring a crazy developmental breakthrough) is if we shrink down worldwide demand for these fuels to something manageable. But demand is not shrinking, it's only growing.

And you're a big part of the problem. Just as much as I am, probably. Point fingers all you want, but as long as you're pointing via computer keyboard, it's pretty goddamned hollow.

It has nothing to do with profits. It has everything to do with the insanity that is consumer consumption.

It's high time that people stop blaming corporations for selling them things when they won't stop buying them.

So what stops these corporations from investing in green business schemes and practices, what stops the oil industry investing in solar? Oh right that stupid fucking law where the shareholders return on investment is the more important.

 

[balfore]

I may not understand climate change well enough, but what does capitalism and the oil industry have to do with natural methane buildup being released from beneath East Siberian Sea?

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

So, I read the title, and instantly...

Spoiler: This popped into my mind

..and then, I continue on my day.

 

[synobal]

Then you know how we fix it? GET A NEW POWER SOURCE. Wind power, fusion power, mass effect drives, I don't care! Just stop relying on fossil fuels!

A lot of rich people are spending their time and money thinking up new ways to ensure we never do that.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

mass effect drives

Well, we would, but currently we're in the middle of calibrations.

Joking aside, this isn't a surprise.

What is a surprise is that there still are people that believe Climate Change is a global scientific experiment.

CAPTCHA: How many kilometres are on your car?

First of all, I don't own a car.

Secondly, if I did, is Captcha trying to shame me on a news thread regarding climate change?

 

[The_Darkness]

I may not understand climate change well enough, but what does capitalism and the oil industry have to do with natural methane buildup being released from beneath East Siberian Sea?

1) Capitalism and the Oil Industry originally started Global Warming (well, actually it was the Industrial Revolution, but Capitalism and Fossil Fuel consumption since then has kept it going,)

2) Global Warming starts melting the ice-caps.

3) Melted ice-caps reveal and release pockets of methane that have been buried there for aeons.

4) Methane is an even more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, which drives Global Warming even further.

After finding out that environmentalists in the eighties were furiously screaming for us to "SPRAY MORE CARBONS, STOP GLOBAL COOLING", I've gotten leery of anything involving environmental policy.

Don't confuse environmentalists and actual scientists. 'Nature' is a scientific journal, not an environmentalists' magazine. There was never any scientific consensus on Global Cooling - it was mainly something that the press popularised and various environmental groups jumped on.

On the other hand, every scientific body of national or international standing agrees that man-made climate change is possible, and the vast majority believe it to have been proven. And that's why I consider it worth doing something about. After all, if there's a possibility that we're driving towards a cliff, it's worth at least trying the brakes...

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

I'm calling bullshit on this story.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

Oil conglomerates are banking on the swiftly-melting Arctic to reveal 30 percent of the world's undiscovered gas and 13 percent of its undiscovered oil. However, even drilling these oil reserves for ten years would only amount to a paltry $100 billion, which would leave us $59,900,000,000,000 in debt. I guess we'd better start saving now.

Hold on. You're claiming that the oil companies have not only just suddenly accepted carbon-powered climate change as real, but are actively trying to cause it because they think it'll make new oil easier to obtain?

I'm gonna have to demand some sources on that one. That sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory to me.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

I may not understand climate change well enough, but what does capitalism and the oil industry have to do with natural methane buildup being released from beneath East Siberian Sea?

The oil industry, according to this article, are hoping that global climate change will result in easier access to oil reserves in areas that are currently hard to access due to being covered with massive ice sheets and permafrost.

Also, use of a large number of oil industry products contribute to increases in the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere as well as a few other gases and particulate matter. CO2 absorbs and re-radiates energy from the sun back into the atmosphere, producing an overall warming effect. All other things being equal, doubling the concentration of C02 from pre industrial levels should produce an increase in global average temperature of about 4-5 degrees Celsius. All other things will not remain equal and the climate is very bloody complex, but essentially, pump enough CO2 into atmosphere and things should probably start to warm up.

As temperatures rise in areas covered by permafrost and ice and also in some deep sea sediments the methane held within reaches it's boiling point, and then does so, floating off into the atmosphere. Methane is about 70 times more effective at re radiating energy back into the atmosphere than CO2 in the near term, although IIRC it doesn't remain in the atmosphere as long.

If things get hotter overall you'll probably get rising sea levels and local/regional changing climate, which is going to cost lots of money to adapt to.

 

[Kargathia]

I may not understand climate change well enough, but what does capitalism and the oil industry have to do with natural methane buildup being released from beneath East Siberian Sea?

Generally speaking: capitalism enabled the massive growth of industry, including the oil industry. Burning fossil fuels releases CO2, that greenhouse gas that's causing global warming. Global warming in turn causes arctic ice to melt, releasing gases trapped in pockets beneath the ice.

As referenced in this story: the same melting of ice also allows access to vast natural gas and oil depots. This means that global warming would be rather beneficial to the oil industry in the short term.

OT: This seems like one more report we can quote when things will have really gone down the shitter. I'm not entirely sure the satisfaction from the inevitable "I told you so" will be worthwhile.

 

[lacktheknack]

They fulfil demand.

Everyone in first-world countries demands.

Stop demanding and they'll stop fulfilling.

I've always thought of this world view like I do people who depend rapists. [The She was asking for it crowd.]

I know that sounds hyperbolic but honestly "profit for the sake of profits without any consideration for humanity" is one of the most perverse beliefs that people have ever accepted.

I figure the reason most people accept it is they think that belief means that someday they'll be rich too.

Capitalism is (to me) the world's most destructive and perverse religion.

Yeah, that's hyperbolic.

Do you want to use plastics, electronics, electricity, etc?

Because according to environmentalists, you're wrecking the world. And that's not hyperbole.

There are alternate energy sources and material sources, yes, but none are even close to replacing what fossil fuels and oil have on offer, even if you combine them. The only way they'll feasibly work (barring a crazy developmental breakthrough) is if we shrink down worldwide demand for these fuels to something manageable. But demand is not shrinking, it's only growing.

And you're a big part of the problem. Just as much as I am, probably. Point fingers all you want, but as long as you're pointing via computer keyboard, it's pretty goddamned hollow.

It has nothing to do with profits. It has everything to do with the insanity that is consumer consumption.

It's high time that people stop blaming corporations for selling them things when they won't stop buying them.

It's not so much what we want that matters as what needs to be done if humanity wants to survive. I don't want to live with less comfort but that doesn't really matter because we need to. As for blaming everything on "consumer consumption" that's a bit misleading. Most of these "demanding" consumers grew up in an infrastructure that depends on these substances. Unless you have the financial independence to circumvent our societies infrastructure at your leisure your kind of stuck having to use them in order to survive. It's easy to flippantly say they should just stop demanding but the truth is that's usually not a practical choice. Most jobs in first world countries require computers many require commuting. That's not an option that's to make enough money to live. Your also ignoring another thing that's growing and that's population numbers. Even if the demands of the average person were to remain the same, hell even if they decreased but not substantially the overall global demand would increase because there is more people demanding. With our growth rate it will become impossible to demand little enough to make much of a difference without basically not having enough to survive. It's not like we can just go back to the middle ages either. Lie it or not humanity has change the world to such an extent it would not be a viable option unless nearly everyone agreed to simultaneously and even then the natural areas that made such a life style possible back then would take a long time to regenerate.

What we need are options and alternatives. As long as these companies stonewall the growth of any real viable alternative and instead insist on pinching every last penny out of us with the status quo then they are the ones to blame. If people had the viable option to use other alternatives and chose not to then you could argue that consumer demand was at fault. This is not the case and anyone who thinks it is really has a very myopic view of the world.

I'm fully aware of the ramifications of trying to downsize, and the reasons it's not feasible.

I'm mostly directing my anger at the newest buzztopic of "WE NEED TO LEAVE ALL REMAINING OIL RESERVES IN THE GROUND RIGHT NOW". Seriously. That's the newest hot topic everywhere I look.

And trust me, I'm aware of these things. I live in Alberta. We've literally had insane anti-tourism campaigns launched against us (from - surprise! - California) because we have the gall to supply North America with oil. Everything around here is all about oil. Our economy lives and dies on oil. So I'm aware of the arguments for and against oil, I've heard them ad infinitum.

I would absolutely die of happiness if nuclear plants became common or solar energy became cheap. I don't want us to be as oil-dependent as we've become, but realistically, we have to work with what we have, not what we want. And thus I'm stuck working for a business that services the oil drillers. The irony of life hurts a bit sometime.

 

[Eleuthera]

snikt

Hey, you're back

Does this mean we might get the Science! column back as well? Please

OT: Only 59,900,000,000,000 to go. I can pitch in... lemme check... $23

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Source: Nature [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v499/n7459/full/499401a.html]

I'm sorry, but nature.com frequently writes alarmist bullshit news like this so I doubt this "study" was very scientific. They also wrote stories about how Gardasil actually didn't "cure" anything and claimed it was a completely unnecessary drug that can harm people. Naturally, it was complete crap and they were twisting well established facts and leaving out important details. That's what happens when a news organization caters specifically to one type of audience, in this case people into "natural" stuff

 

[Andrew_C]

Wasn't there a German study that did serious, in depth, fieldwork up in the Artic Circle? And didn't they conclude last year that as far as they can tell, the methane emissions are probably not linked to the decrease in ice in the Arctic Circle? I guess "Arctic methane won't kill and bankrupt everyone!" isn't such an attention grabbing headline.

Their statement is here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:L5pTcyExlGQJ:www.geomar.de/uploads/media/pm_2012_67_MSM21-4_Fazit_en.pdf

EDIT: broken link replaced with Google's cached version

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

So, I read the title, and instantly...

Spoiler: This popped into my mind

..and then, I continue on my day.

Damn ninja'd. Oh George Carlin man did you get out just in time. Then again both he and I and entropy buffs so I can't help but think he'd have the same interest that I have watching us actively take our species life. It's like a train crash in slow motion you know it's a tragedy but there's a disquieting poetry about the whole thing too.

When I read the bolded part...


...and then, I continued on my day.