MGS2 Sexual Objectification?

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

I really wonder why people would really care if it was sexual objectification or not... hypersensitive much?

 

[Albetta]

First off, you have no idea what people would say if Raiden was female, hell maybe having a female lead would have been seen as a progressive step? I don't know, and you sure as hell don't.

Really? Come on brother, If that scene happened exactly as it does, but with a female raiden instead, it would get praise for having a female lead instead of being denounced as BDSM fetish material? Be honest with yourself. You know it in your heart of hearts to be true.

Second off, you're creating these phantom forum denizens fit your argument, most who argue for change (including Anita) don't say games with nude scenes are vile, they say the finer nuances of objectification and roll of female characters are having a negative impact and more varied and evolved female characters will make better games overall.

Im not really sure what the first part of that statement was supposed to imply.

Third off, you do a horrible job arguing MGS2 is sexist in the first place, if you can't argue that correctly in the first place your entire point goes to shit

I never stated, nor do I believe that MGS2 is sexist. I was asking a rhetorical question for the sake of argument.

And there are so many justifications in there for her looking like she just stepped off of her client's testicles. I never claimed that she lacked characterization (aside from the phrasing in around sexual innuendos where I made some admittedly poor word choice), I said that there was no justification for her sexualization. It is there just to pander. She may do more, but the sexualization has no context.

Also, I could come up with all the backstory in the world for a character I made, but if all they do is shove their dick down other people's throats I wouldn't be surprised if people just called the character "that one rapist dude." While I don't think this argument is necessary for my particular point, I'll still throw it out there.

First of all, assuming a scantily clad woman is a stripper is actually kind of sexist. Does she need to explain to you why she dresses the way she does? No. Sexuality is a natural part of being human. It needs no justification, nor does it need context. Soul Caliber isn't a story heavy game, and is full of asinine impractical character designs (like most fighting games). I don't need or care for each character's appearance to be scrutinized by the game, because thats not the purpose. The purpose is the kick the living shit out of each other. Where it a story rich game, like Half-Life, I might be inclined to question why Alex Vance is running around in a G-String, not because it in and of itself is "wrong" or "dirty", but because it clashes with the existing suspension of belief established by the game developers. What suspension of belief is there in games like LoL or Soul Caliber, games treated more like sports than cohesive universes?

Now I'm assuming you're American. I could be wrong, but I've noticed most people arguing about this stuff are American. It's probably because America is so religious, but for some reason Americans view sex and sexuality as demeaning and wrong. They aren't. If you are seriously upset about sexuality in games and media, then i've got really bad news for you. Sexuality in media is on the rise, it has been since the mid 60's. If you can't handle that, then you might want to go live with the amish, because you only have more stress in your future.

 

[Albetta]

What makes you think Raiden being naked and powerless against his enemies is intended to be titillating?

Because I am titillated by it. Except for the powerless part that is. I don't really like the whole "submissive slave" thing. Im not criticizing anybody who does, it's just not for me.

 

[JimB]

What makes you think Raiden being naked and powerless against his enemies is intended to be titillating?

Because I am titillated by it.

"I felt titillated, therefore the game developers intended to titillate me" is a very weird stance, to me. That would be like saying, "Mark David Chapman felt compelled to murder John Lennon after reading the Catcher in the Rye, so J.D. Salinger intended to cause people to murder John Lennon."

 

[Albetta]

What makes you think Raiden being naked and powerless against his enemies is intended to be titillating?

Because I am titillated by it.

"I felt titillated, therefore the game developers intended to titillate me" is a very weird stance, to me. That would be like saying, "Mark David Chapman felt compelled to murder John Lennon after reading the Catcher in the Rye, so J.D. Salinger intended to cause people to murder John Lennon."

By that logic, how can you reliably say that women you see as sex objects in games are meant to be sex objects?

 

[JimB]

By that logic, how can you reliably say that women you see as sex objects in games are meant to be sex objects?

I try to reference the products in question and the context those products exist within, rather than using my own boner as a divining rod.

Incidentally, between this and that whole "You know it in your heart of hearts to be true" thing you said to NiPah? You might want to seriously cut back on the egotism in your posting style, dude. Declaring yourself to be right and then further declaring your enemies to secretly agree with you but in denial about it is only gonna piss people off.

 

[Albetta]

By that logic, how can you reliably say that women you see as sex objects in games are meant to be sex objects?

I try to reference the products in question and the context those products exist within, rather than using my own boner as a divining rod.

Incidentally, between this and that whole "You know it in your heart of hearts to be true" thing you said to NiPah? You might want to seriously cut back on the egotism in your posting style, dude. Declaring yourself to be right and then further declaring your enemies to secretly agree with you but in denial about it is only gonna piss people off.

I'm only asking intellectual honesty from those who wish to debate with me. Its just basic respect.

 

[NiPah]

First off, you have no idea what people would say if Raiden was female, hell maybe having a female lead would have been seen as a progressive step? I don't know, and you sure as hell don't.

Really? Come on brother, If that scene happened exactly as it does, but with a female raiden instead, it would get praise for having a female lead instead of being denounced as BDSM fetish material? Be honest with yourself. You know it in your heart of hearts to be true.

Honestly I don't think the majority of people would give two shits about the gender, sure you would get a few people up in arms but I believe the majority of people would see it for what it was.
Exactly as what happened with the female torture scene in MGS3.
With that said I do believe most feminists would see it as a positive progression, albeit with an odd little bit of unnecessary nudity.

Second off, you're creating these phantom forum denizens fit your argument, most who argue for change (including Anita) don't say games with nude scenes are vile, they say the finer nuances of objectification and roll of female characters are having a negative impact and more varied and evolved female characters will make better games overall.

Im not really sure what the first part of that statement was supposed to imply.

I'm saying stop speaking for the people you're trying to debate.
I've yet to see a hardline feminist come in here and say nudity in games is vile and repulsive, I haven't seen them on this forum, and I don't believe you're doing a good job representing their standpoint.

Third off, you do a horrible job arguing MGS2 is sexist in the first place, if you can't argue that correctly in the first place your entire point goes to shit

I never stated, nor do I believe that MGS2 is sexist. I was asking a rhetorical question for the sake of argument.

So if Raiden was a female, do you believe it would be sexist?

 

[Aurion]

That is sexual objectification, throwing in random bits of sexual gratification with no justification through characterization, and it isn't just wrong, it's fucking lazy.

Spoiler: Guess what? I read wiki's too and had read this before

"The House of Valentine was once one of the most wealthy families in London. Isabella 'Ivy' Valentine had been raised with love by her parents. However, her father, Earl Valentine, was driven insane by his pursuit for what was called the "Key to Eternal Youth." By the time of his death, his efforts to search for immortality had drained his family's fortunes and left one of London's most distinguished families in ruins. As if to pursue her husband into death, the Countess fell ill and passed away soon after Earl Valentine's death. This left Ivy as the sole surviving member of the Valentine family.

In reality, Ivy was not a true Valentine by birth. The Earl and Countess found her abandoned in front of their mansion when she was an infant, and she was taken into the family as an adopted child. Ivy discovered this secret only after reading a will left behind by the Countess in her death. But this did not matter to her, for the Valentines were the only parents she knew.

Searching through her parents' possessions, Ivy found her father's diary. In it, she discovered that the "Key to Eternal Youth" her father had been pursuing was a sword called Soul Edge. He had also been obsessed with the art of alchemy. To honor her father, Ivy chose to become an alchemist and investigate Soul Edge.

During this investigation, she uncovered the true nature of the sword?it was an evil blade that feasted on souls. Vercci, Adams, Captain Cervantes; the more she read of the fates of those who had come into contact with Soul Edge, the more she became convinced of her suspicions.

"My father was driven mad by such a loathsome thing...this evil sword!"

Filled with rage and despair, Ivy vowed to avenge the death of her father by using all of her knowledge to destroy Soul Edge. Ivy realized she needed to create a weapon powerful enough to destroy Soul Edge. Her knowledge led her to successfully create a weapon capable of shifting back and forth from a whip to a sword. This weapon was merely mechanical though, and Ivy believed the only thing which could stand against a living weapon is another living weapon. She attempted to use alchemy and her own blood to give the sword life, but all attempts were unsuccessful.

Finding her alchemic skills useless, she turned to studying ancient sorcery. Every midnight, she would attempt summoning rituals, hoping to call upon a being who would grant her sword life. With every failed attempt, Ivy became more desperate and angry.

At last, one night, a large malformed arm emerged from her summoning circle. The arm, sensing her attachment to her weapon, proceeded to touch the whip sword. Ivy heard a soundless voice seemingly coming from the arm.

"I, Cross of the Pledge, shall confer upon thee the Point in the Escutcheon of Destruction - Dexter Purpure."

The ceremony came to an end and the mysterious being vanished. Under the moonlight, Ivy's sanity began to crack. She finally had the weapon she had sought to create; a living sword which would obey her every command. Calling her weapon the 'Ivy Blade', she set out on her journey to find and destroy Soul Edge."

From the Soul Calibur Wiki.

Thats a long, in depth backstory for a meaningless sex object.

And there are so many justifications in there for her looking like she just stepped off of her client's testicles. I never claimed that she lacked characterization (aside from the phrasing in around sexual innuendos where I made some admittedly poor word choice), I said that there was no justification for her sexualization. It is there just to pander. She may do more, but the sexualization has no context.

Also, I could come up with all the backstory in the world for a character I made, but if all they do is shove their dick down other people's throats I wouldn't be surprised if people just called the character "that one rapist dude." While I don't think this argument is necessary for my particular point, I'll still throw it out there.

Okay, just gonna say it: This whole argument is idiotic.

It's a fanservicey fighter, with plenty of service for just about any particular taste. Into milfs with swords? Sure, it's got that. Pretty boys with swords who need to put on a damn shirt? Got that too. Hypermuscled grizzled samurai dudes and sexy ninjas? Check.

Voldo? Check.

Shallow? Yes. Definitely. No debate. It's a fucking fighting game.

Part of the cancer that's killing video games (allegedly)? Hell no.

 

[JimB]

I'm only asking intellectual honesty from those who wish to debate with me.

No, you're asking for submission to your ideas without being willing to entertain or address anyone else's. I mean, don't think I haven't noticed you've ignored the biggest parts of my posts to you.

 

[Sizzle Montyjing]

Blinks.
Blinks again.
Are you serious? In fact, it doesn't matter if you're not because the joke is so way off mark it's not even funny.
The game came out 12 years ago, old enough for people younger than that to argue about misogyny in games. Which, sometimes, it seems like they frequently do, on both sides. It doesn't matter. End. Fin.

 

[Tanis]

Can we please just make a SUB FORUM for all the damn threads?

Maybe a 'Gaming Politics' forum?
Because, I'd like to talk about VIDEO GAMES...not 'click bait is magic'.
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OT:
No.
Because it wasn't SET UP as sexual.
It was set up as 'HEY, LOOK AT HOW POWERLESS HE IS COMPARED TO SNAKE, LOL!'

It's like saying Salander's rape in 'TGWTDT' was 'sexual objectification' because, sex and nudity.
But, it's not.

Why? How can I explain it...in a way so simple ANYONE (even someone who is ESL) could get it?

O, that's right...IT WAS A RAPE!
.
.
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.
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Just because a scene has nudity, or any kind of 'skin/bedroom stuff' in it, doesn't mean it's being used to 'sexual objectify', it means the writer/director is using it as a means to an end.

Guts & Casca, and pretty much every other MC in Berserk, getting sexually assaulted doesn't mean the writer/artist wants to do a porno.
It mean he's using rape/sexual assault as a means to an end.

For Berserk, that end is to breakdown and depower EVERY strong character (male or female), for the sake of quick 'now this is why they hate or have emotional issues' arc.

TL;DR
Q: Is Raiden being sexually objectified in MGS?
A: No.

Q: Why?
A: Context of the scene and the scenes following it.

 

[mecegirl]

Maybe it was just the folks I hung out with way back then,and keep in mind I was like 16/17 back then, but I'd say that it wasn't unsexual in nature. Just not over the top sexual, and definitely not intended to titillate. It was very humorous. My friends and I were just a bit busy laughing every time he covered his privates whenever he did a flip. It was probably the first time I'd seen a man depicted in such a way in a video game. I always felt bad for Raiden, like I don't think the writer liked him that much, he went through a lot of shit.

I don't know how such a scene would work with a female chracter because ratings would required her to cover both her chest and her genitals, as she was walking/flipping around. And I'm not sure how well they would be able to animate that back then.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

And there are so many justifications in there for her looking like she just stepped off of her client's testicles. I never claimed that she lacked characterization (aside from the phrasing in around sexual innuendos where I made some admittedly poor word choice), I said that there was no justification for her sexualization. It is there just to pander. She may do more, but the sexualization has no context.

Also, I could come up with all the backstory in the world for a character I made, but if all they do is shove their dick down other people's throats I wouldn't be surprised if people just called the character "that one rapist dude." While I don't think this argument is necessary for my particular point, I'll still throw it out there.

First of all, assuming a scantily clad woman is a stripper is actually kind of sexist. Does she need to explain to you why she dresses the way she does? No. Sexuality is a natural part of being human. It needs no justification, nor does it need context. Soul Caliber isn't a story heavy game, and is full of asinine impractical character designs (like most fighting games). I don't need or care for each character's appearance to be scrutinized by the game, because thats not the purpose. The purpose is the kick the living shit out of each other. Where it a story rich game, like Half-Life, I might be inclined to question why Alex Vance is running around in a G-String, not because it in and of itself is "wrong" or "dirty", but because it clashes with the existing suspension of belief established by the game developers. What suspension of belief is there in games like LoL or Soul Caliber, games treated more like sports than cohesive universes?

Now I'm assuming you're American. I could be wrong, but I've noticed most people arguing about this stuff are American. It's probably because America is so religious, but for some reason Americans view sex and sexuality as demeaning and wrong. They aren't. If you are seriously upset about sexuality in games and media, then i've got really bad news for you. Sexuality in media is on the rise, it has been since the mid 60's. If you can't handle that, then you might want to go live with the amish, because you only have more stress in your future.

The game says she is uninterested in sex and then has her look and act like a dominatrix. Something is off with that. A person can dress how they want. A character need a damn reason.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY. CLEARLY EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER THOUGHT WAS A LIE. AND ALL I HAD TO DO TO COME TO THE REVELATION WAS NOTICE THIS ONE SEX JOKE IN A 10 YEAR OLD GAME. THANK YOU ALBETTA. YOU ARE TRULY THE HERO GAMING NEEDS.




Happy? No?

Raiden was a defined character, not an object. He was given motivations, a character arc, and a justification for why he was in the situation he was. The same cannot be said for, I don't know, Ivy from Soul Caliber, the holy bondage virgin. I'm not joking about that last part either. Ivy, who runs around in bondage gear, is explained to be a virgin who is totally uninterested in sex. A character who exists solely to spout innuendos, who is completely uninterested in the actual act of rubbing genitals. She is sexy (as much as you can call a crazy bondage virgin sexy) solely to gratify the player, not for any other discernible reason. Similar things could be said for most females in that series, or numerous other fighting games. That is sexual objectification, throwing in random bits of sexual gratification with no justification through characterization, and it isn't just wrong, it's fucking lazy.

As for other examples, how about the B&B squad? Why the hell does that exist? I mean, you get to see them do a sexy little dance for you, and then you hear about how they murdered everyone they love? And you can hypnotize them with J-pop? Man, that's what I call a strong female character!

Or perhaps we could talk about the French chick from Peacewalker, their resident sex joke. She just shows up and talks about birds and gets moist for snake.

But no, Raiden getting tortured by Ocelot (like every other character in the series) and then stripped naked for a couple screens as one part joke, one part theme reinforcement, is the real sexism. Poor, poor, crazy ninja Raiden. I hear it even rained on the day he was born.

Bayonetta also has all that stuff, but it doesn't' stop everyone from complaining about how sexist she is.

Apparently I am not people, because I have never, and would never (given what I currently know about her), argue that Bayonetta is sexually objectified. Perhaps comparatively, but not all on her own. From what I can tell, she's a pretty decent character.

That is sexual objectification, throwing in random bits of sexual gratification with no justification through characterization, and it isn't just wrong, it's fucking lazy.

Spoiler: Guess what? I read wiki's too and had read this before

"The House of Valentine was once one of the most wealthy families in London. Isabella 'Ivy' Valentine had been raised with love by her parents. However, her father, Earl Valentine, was driven insane by his pursuit for what was called the "Key to Eternal Youth." By the time of his death, his efforts to search for immortality had drained his family's fortunes and left one of London's most distinguished families in ruins. As if to pursue her husband into death, the Countess fell ill and passed away soon after Earl Valentine's death. This left Ivy as the sole surviving member of the Valentine family.

In reality, Ivy was not a true Valentine by birth. The Earl and Countess found her abandoned in front of their mansion when she was an infant, and she was taken into the family as an adopted child. Ivy discovered this secret only after reading a will left behind by the Countess in her death. But this did not matter to her, for the Valentines were the only parents she knew.

Searching through her parents' possessions, Ivy found her father's diary. In it, she discovered that the "Key to Eternal Youth" her father had been pursuing was a sword called Soul Edge. He had also been obsessed with the art of alchemy. To honor her father, Ivy chose to become an alchemist and investigate Soul Edge.

During this investigation, she uncovered the true nature of the sword?it was an evil blade that feasted on souls. Vercci, Adams, Captain Cervantes; the more she read of the fates of those who had come into contact with Soul Edge, the more she became convinced of her suspicions.

"My father was driven mad by such a loathsome thing...this evil sword!"

Filled with rage and despair, Ivy vowed to avenge the death of her father by using all of her knowledge to destroy Soul Edge. Ivy realized she needed to create a weapon powerful enough to destroy Soul Edge. Her knowledge led her to successfully create a weapon capable of shifting back and forth from a whip to a sword. This weapon was merely mechanical though, and Ivy believed the only thing which could stand against a living weapon is another living weapon. She attempted to use alchemy and her own blood to give the sword life, but all attempts were unsuccessful.

Finding her alchemic skills useless, she turned to studying ancient sorcery. Every midnight, she would attempt summoning rituals, hoping to call upon a being who would grant her sword life. With every failed attempt, Ivy became more desperate and angry.

At last, one night, a large malformed arm emerged from her summoning circle. The arm, sensing her attachment to her weapon, proceeded to touch the whip sword. Ivy heard a soundless voice seemingly coming from the arm.

"I, Cross of the Pledge, shall confer upon thee the Point in the Escutcheon of Destruction - Dexter Purpure."

The ceremony came to an end and the mysterious being vanished. Under the moonlight, Ivy's sanity began to crack. She finally had the weapon she had sought to create; a living sword which would obey her every command. Calling her weapon the 'Ivy Blade', she set out on her journey to find and destroy Soul Edge."

From the Soul Calibur Wiki.

Thats a long, in depth backstory for a meaningless sex object.

And there are so many justifications in there for her looking like she just stepped off of her client's testicles. I never claimed that she lacked characterization (aside from the phrasing in around sexual innuendos where I made some admittedly poor word choice), I said that there was no justification for her sexualization. It is there just to pander. She may do more, but the sexualization has no context.

Also, I could come up with all the backstory in the world for a character I made, but if all they do is shove their dick down other people's throats I wouldn't be surprised if people just called the character "that one rapist dude." While I don't think this argument is necessary for my particular point, I'll still throw it out there.

Okay, just gonna say it: This whole argument is idiotic.

It's a fanservicey fighter, with plenty of service for just about any particular taste. Into milfs with swords? Sure, it's got that. Pretty boys with swords who need to put on a damn shirt? Got that too. Hypermuscled grizzled samurai dudes and sexy ninjas? Check.

Voldo? Check.

Shallow? Yes. Definitely. No debate. It's a fucking fighting game.

Part of the cancer that's killing video games (allegedly)? Hell no.

I am not calling it the cancer killing the industry. I am calling it lazy. I'm calling it bad. I'm calling it shit. Laziness and childishness are perhaps "killing" the industry, but this is just one facet of that.

 

[zen5887]

No.
Because it wasn't SET UP as sexual.

And we're done here.

This is a somewhat complex topic so breaking everything down to sex = bad is violently oversimplifying things. And that's what's happening here, you're assuming because the character is naked in one section of the game he is being objectified. Ignoring the rest of the in game context that lead to this point.

 

[L. Declis]

It kinda seems like it

I heard Kojima made Raiden with the intention of drawing in women who like bishounen guys

Basically, this is what happened. He got a letter from a fan asking why Snake was so ugly, so he made Raiden.

Then he made Raiden gay to apologise to the original Snake fans.

Then he made Raiden a ninja because no one liked whiny Raiden.

Then he let other people made Rising because he couldn't figure out how to make Raiden likable. And neither could they.

I feel sorry for Raiden, he's become a punching bag that everyone hates, but no one can figure out how to fix.

It might be sexual objectification. However, it isn't problematic because it's a deviation from the norm.

I don't know if it's sexist but it sounds fucking stupid.

But yeah, it sounds mostly fucking stupid.

It is stupid. Metal Gear Solid is Kojima's massive love letter to old American action and spy movies. It is stupid because it is full of boyish stupid affection and love.

There is nothing wrong with stupid; I mean, the bosses for MGS2? We have a fat guy called Fatman on roller skates who laughs all the time and drinks martinis.

Why is this smart? Well, you have the fact he is a bomber called Fatman. He drinks Martinis to link himself back to the Americans. He also kills his mentor to prove he is better; Christ, I could do so much with this one (Americans to the Brits, each generation wanting to surpass their previous one which is also a parralel to Raiden and Snake, Raiden and Solidus, the Japanese wanting to be free from their time under the U.S), the roller skates are proof that even though he is better than his mentor, he is too young and inexperienced to be able to really take over (even though he tries), it can be a criticism of the younger generation of Japan not liking the dynasty-style lives they have, I can go on.

Kojima is the kind of stupid where you need to be REALLY clever to be so silly, and you need to really put your heart into it to get such a heartfelt game.

Hmm... It's an interesting point. Do a degree, it may be.

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one. It's an odd mix of practicality and objectification. Obviously the male soldiers won't have the anatomic features of your female contact; but the only reason you know what you're looking for is because of a moment where Snake was staring at her ass.

Raiden, by the same token, was very much designed to be a 'pretty boy'; thus may have been intended to draw in a larger audience. It could very well have been that the sequence you're describing was supposed to be the 'icing on the cake' for female fans while still maintaining that odd mix of practicality and objectification.

There is also the fact that Snake was meant to be uglier, but Kojima asked the character designer for MGS2 and then on to make him prettier; it's why he has such lovely eyes.

There is also the fact that Snake is nearly always introduced at somepoint with a close-up of his arse in his sneaking suit; he is almost always made to be naked or half naked at some point, even Volgan in MGS3 got an erection torturing Snake and grabs his crotch as well, Raiden's skull suit gave him a bloody massive bulge for god's sake.

There is almost always a half naked fist fight between two, sweaty, muscled men at the end of the game.

In MGS2 there is a cutscene in which Raiden is tied up, naked, and tortured. He then escapes, naked, covering his genitals with his hands, and proceeds to run through the facility. At this point, the player can do a "summersault" move to avoid the attention of soldiers and guards. Is this sexual objectification? Is it pure fetish material, devoid of any contribution to the story or gameplay? What would be the reaction if this same sequence happened to a female character?

Okay.

Well, firstly, we have the fact that everything Raiden has ever known is about to be removed from him. His history, his relationship, Snake as a hero (remember that he ultimately just betrayed Raiden at this point from Raiden's POV), everything he thought he knew. He is as ignorant as a naked babe.

He is literally naked in every way at this point. He is vulnerable, trying to sneak past armed guards in the middle of the massive threat to the world.

There is also the subtext that Arsenal Gear is actually shaped similar to a womb, and that Raiden is moving down to the vagina to be "reborn". As such, he is as naked as babe here.

Finally, there is the fact that in most American action films, the character would be captured and tortured, and making them naked is one way to do it. He is helpless, utterly. He isn't even afforded dignity; he isn't Solid Snake, he is just Jack, captured by Ocelot and the rest. Pathetic and weak.

 

[Hawki]

Hmm... It's an interesting point. Do a degree, it may be.

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one. It's an odd mix of practicality and objectification. Obviously the male soldiers won't have the anatomic features of your female contact; but the only reason you know what you're looking for is because of a moment where Snake was staring at her ass.

I really doubt that's an example of objectification. I say this for the following reasons:

-Otacon points out the arse thing, to which Snake comments "you were really looking." It's the game having a joke at Otacon's expense - nerdy scientist guy who's been duped into creating REX, who thinks he has a thing with Sniper Wolf, etc. Otacon definately comes into his own by the end of MGS1, but when we first meet him, he's at his lowest. The rear thing is as much a critique on him as it is on Meryl.

-On the subject of Meryl herself, I can't call her objectified. While she's an individual that Snake has to save by the end of the game (or not, if you sucumb to Ocelot's torture), she's still a defined individual with her own backstory, her own motivations, and her own character arc. This is added to IMO by the nature of Snake's interactions. He's flirted before - he flirts with Holly in 'Metal Gear 2', he flirts with Mei Ling and Naomi at the start of MGS1 (early codec conversations), he flirts with Meryl herself. MGS1 is a watershed moment for Snake IMO, not so much that he develops as a character, but that he's allowed to see himself and show himself for who he really is - a good person. Meryl is a person whom he grows to care about, and allows him to emerge from the emotional shell he's crafted around himself. While Meryl serves Snake's character development, I don't see an individual who's just an object doing that, given that as mentioned, Snake's interacted with women plenty of times before, yet was still clad in his emotional shell for a good portion of the early stages of MGS1.

That, and Meryl helps Snake throughout the early game, escapes from her cell by herself, etc. While naieve and green, she's not entirely helpless.

 

[johnnybleu]

...while Zanief strutting around in a speedo, even when he poses for the camera, is framed as more an exhibition of strength, not fap-bait. To say nothing of his outfit actually being a textbook example of regulation attire for his chosen combat style.

I have a gay friend who would happily disagree with you on that one. And while I agree that context might play a part in determining what is and isn't supposed to be sexy, at the end of the day it's the viewer who decides. Some things are sexy to some, and not to others. People are turned on by different things. Some people might get boners for Cammy, but she just doesn't float my boat. This is a very subjective matter, and you can't point to characters and situations and proclaim what is and isn't actually sexy/sexual.

 

[WindKnight]

The question i'm trying to beg is whether or not theres a double standard for male character's titillating scenes. I would argue there is. As is, this scene has been completely left out of the conversation. Make Raiden a woman, however, and the scene is a vile, gross piece of misogynistic trash. Thats an fundamentally unfair view, and one I think many of the people on these forums unfortunately have.

Keep in mind that Raiden is one of THE most loathed VG characters precisely because instead of getting their manly badass Snake to play, male gamers got instead a character designed specifically to be attractive to women and teenage girls.

 

[TheArcaneThinker]

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?