MGS2 Sexual Objectification?

[Dagda Mor]

This is clearly bait, but I have time to kill, so I'll try to say something worthwhile about this.

No. It's clearly meant to humiliate Raiden, not to titillate viewers. Some might get off on that, but they're a very small portion of the playerbase and they're not what this scene is aiming at.

Now, would I react differently if the scene was the same, but with a female Raiden? Yes, I would. Female characters in media are in a different situation than male characters, and choosing to strip down a female character can send different messages than stripping down male characters. Hell, most of the humor in that section comes from how emasculating it is for Raiden. Even if women and men were as equal as could be, they still have different genitals, and the scene would have to be constructed very differently to account for that while maintaining the same impact. And I do think that they could have accomplished what they were going for if they were using a female character, but they'd have to construct the scene differently, and be very aware of what messages they're sending.

 

[mecegirl]

The question i'm trying to beg is whether or not theres a double standard for male character's titillating scenes. I would argue there is. As is, this scene has been completely left out of the conversation. Make Raiden a woman, however, and the scene is a vile, gross piece of misogynistic trash. Thats an fundamentally unfair view, and one I think many of the people on these forums unfortunately have.

Keep in mind that Raiden is one of THE most loathed VG characters precisely because instead of getting their manly badass Snake to play, male gamers got instead a character designed specifically to be attractive to women and teenage girls.

Was he ever considered attractive to women and teenaged girls? Its obvious that he as supposed to be a pretty boy, I just don't think it worked. While there is always someone somewhere who is attracted to a character (Pyramid Head even has his fans). I would say that him being humiliated would lessen his chances for attracting a female fan base, but I know the too many female geeks that are into that kind of stuff. I just don't remember girls going for it. I never went for it, and none of my other female friends at the time did either. But maybe there was a fandom on the internet that I missed? Maybe after his hd redo?

 

[senordesol]

Hmm... It's an interesting point. Do a degree, it may be.

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one. It's an odd mix of practicality and objectification. Obviously the male soldiers won't have the anatomic features of your female contact; but the only reason you know what you're looking for is because of a moment where Snake was staring at her ass.

I really doubt that's an example of objectification. I say this for the following reasons:

-Otacon points out the arse thing, to which Snake comments "you were really looking." It's the game having a joke at Otacon's expense - nerdy scientist guy who's been duped into creating REX, who thinks he has a thing with Sniper Wolf, etc. Otacon definately comes into his own by the end of MGS1, but when we first meet him, he's at his lowest. The rear thing is as much a critique on him as it is on Meryl.

-On the subject of Meryl herself, I can't call her objectified. While she's an individual that Snake has to save by the end of the game (or not, if you sucumb to Ocelot's torture), she's still a defined individual with her own backstory, her own motivations, and her own character arc. This is added to IMO by the nature of Snake's interactions. He's flirted before - he flirts with Holly in 'Metal Gear 2', he flirts with Mei Ling and Naomi at the start of MGS1 (early codec conversations), he flirts with Meryl herself. MGS1 is a watershed moment for Snake IMO, not so much that he develops as a character, but that he's allowed to see himself and show himself for who he really is - a good person. Meryl is a person whom he grows to care about, and allows him to emerge from the emotional shell he's crafted around himself. While Meryl serves Snake's character development, I don't see an individual who's just an object doing that, given that as mentioned, Snake's interacted with women plenty of times before, yet was still clad in his emotional shell for a good portion of the early stages of MGS1.

That, and Meryl helps Snake throughout the early game, escapes from her cell by herself, etc. While naieve and green, she's not entirely helpless.

That doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't meant to be objectified (and that's not necessarily a bad thing).

The point is that her shapely ass became a plot-point. I.e: Her sexually appealing anatomy (and not her character) becomes something the audience is supposed to focus on for a time. Like I said, though, this is a bit of an oddity as it actually has an application in-game apart from 'fap service' but it *is*, strictly speaking, objectification.

Now here's why it may not be a bad thing: Because Meryl is such a developed character, having a bit of understated objectification only reinforces her rounding as a character. She isn't *all* tits and ass, but she's not a quivering brain in a jar either. It's a good balance between the two.

 

[ForumSafari]

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one.

Oh is that how most people do it?

To clarify things for the few people that won't have played MGS there are actually at least three equally valid and intentional ways to tell Meryl apart from other guards:

1. Watch for hip movement in first person
2. Hide and see who uses the ladies toilet
3. Choke each guard and see who has the higher pitched grunt

I always used the choke hold since it seemed like the quickest way.

 

[L. Declis]

The question i'm trying to beg is whether or not theres a double standard for male character's titillating scenes. I would argue there is. As is, this scene has been completely left out of the conversation. Make Raiden a woman, however, and the scene is a vile, gross piece of misogynistic trash. Thats an fundamentally unfair view, and one I think many of the people on these forums unfortunately have.

Keep in mind that Raiden is one of THE most loathed VG characters precisely because instead of getting their manly badass Snake to play, male gamers got instead a character designed specifically to be attractive to women and teenage girls.

Was he ever considered attractive to women and teenaged girls? Its obvious that he as supposed to be a pretty boy, I just don't think it worked. While there is always someone somewhere who is attracted to a character (Pyramid Head even has his fans). I would say that him being humiliated would lessen his chances for attracting a female fan base, but I know the too many female geeks that are into that kind of stuff. I just don't remember girls going for it. I never went for it, and none of my other female friends at the time did either. But maybe there was a fandom on the internet that I missed? Maybe after his hd redo in Revengeance?

No, originally he was in the game because Kojima got a letter asking for Snake to be prettier.

He was only humilated forever after:

1) The fans were tricked into thinking it was a Snake game, and we got Raiden.
2) Raiden didn't endear himself to the fans well. Between his whiny girlfriend ("Jack, what day is today?"), just being WAY TOO PRETTY (he had womens hips...) and having to work alongside Pliskin (the bad-ass), he was never going to come off well for anyone expecting Snake.

Hideo heard how much everyone hated him, and decided to indulge it because, well, he's Hideo and he's always been like that.

As someone who came into MGS at MGS2 (my friend was like, "Hey, you can shoot people in the balls!"), I have never hated Raiden until his later, more emo appearances. And I never really hated him, I just felt like a Dad who watched his son get worse and could do nothing to stop it.

Revengeance was a good attempt at it, but it really wasn't an MGS game without Snake; even calling it Rising, no one cared. Which is a shame, because it is a good game (if you ignore the Wolf).

 

[mecegirl]

The question i'm trying to beg is whether or not theres a double standard for male character's titillating scenes. I would argue there is. As is, this scene has been completely left out of the conversation. Make Raiden a woman, however, and the scene is a vile, gross piece of misogynistic trash. Thats an fundamentally unfair view, and one I think many of the people on these forums unfortunately have.

Keep in mind that Raiden is one of THE most loathed VG characters precisely because instead of getting their manly badass Snake to play, male gamers got instead a character designed specifically to be attractive to women and teenage girls.

Was he ever considered attractive to women and teenaged girls? Its obvious that he as supposed to be a pretty boy, I just don't think it worked. While there is always someone somewhere who is attracted to a character (Pyramid Head even has his fans). I would say that him being humiliated would lessen his chances for attracting a female fan base, but I know the too many female geeks that are into that kind of stuff. I just don't remember girls going for it. I never went for it, and none of my other female friends at the time did either. But maybe there was a fandom on the internet that I missed? Maybe after his hd redo in Revengeance?

No, originally he was in the game because Kojima got a letter asking for Snake to be prettier.

He was only humilated forever after:

1) The fans were tricked into thinking it was a Snake game, and we got Raiden.
2) Raiden didn't endear himself to the fans well. Between his whiny girlfriend ("Jack, what day is today?"), just being WAY TOO PRETTY (he had womens hips...) and having to work alongside Pliskin (the bad-ass), he was never going to come off well for anyone expecting Snake.

Hideo heard how much everyone hated him, and decided to indulge it because, well, he's Hideo and he's always been like that.

As someone who came into MGS at MGS2 (my friend was like, "Hey, you can shoot people in the balls!"), I have never hated Raiden until his later, more emo appearances. And I never really hated him, I just felt like a Dad who watched his son get worse and could do nothing to stop it.

Revengeance was a good attempt at it, but it really wasn't an MGS game without Snake; even calling it Rising, no one cared. Which is a shame, because it is a good game (if you ignore the Wolf).

Oh no, I remember everyone hating him. And I remember being shocked that he was the protagonist for the game. But visually he was supposed to be a pretty boy. I guess that's why some felt that he was supposed to attract female fans? Either way I don't remember an outpouring of love from female fans despite all of that. Odds are most of the girls like me who played or even knew of the game back then were just as put off by his behavior. But while I know porn exists for everything, I think I'm gonna check out the Tumblr tags, because now I'm curious.

 

[L. Declis]

Oh no, I remember everyone hating him. And I remember being shocked that he was the protagonist for the game. But visually he was supposed to be a pretty boy. I guess that's why some felt that he was supposed to attract female fans? Either way I don't remember an outpouring of love from female fans despite all of that. Odds are most of the girls like me who played or even knew of the game back then were just as put off by his behavior. But while I know porn exists for everything, I think I'm gonna check out the Tumblr tags, because now I'm curious.

From what I understand, no one liked him, even the ladies. They basically made him by looking at manga and anime and thinking "What do the ladies like?"

If you have the original Metal Gear Solid 2, you get a disc which has the "Making of MGS2" on it, very informative.

 

[Dagda Mor]

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

It reduces a person to an object. That's generally regarded as bad.

However, I suspect that you're not really asking what's wrong with objectification, but what's wrong with fanservice. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice, it's just that video games go so over the top with fanservice that the character is nothing but sex appeal. Hell, even THAT wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that that describes the vast majority of female characters in gaming. Males in games are almost completely defined by what makes them unique, and they're well represented in pretty much every character type, and in the rare instance where they are objectified, it's easy to overlook because it doesn't represent a major problem with the industry. Females in games aren't represented nearly as well, and it's easier to find a stripper than a well-realized character who is also female.

TL;DR: Sexual objectification would actually be somewhat tolerable if it wasn't so ubiquitous.

 

[mecegirl]

Okay update.

For the most part the Raiden pictures on Tumblr are of his newer armor, or things that make fun of Raiden as a chracter. Dotted in between that are buttshots from the most recent game that he's been in, but it is still the minority of posts posted. But his butt does have a blog dedicated to it, and its own tag...though that might just became people on tumblr really like butts (no lie, butts are popular with the Tumblr ladies. It never seems to matter whose butt it is either.)

Spoiler

If anyone wonders what sexulization looks like lol

 

[TheArcaneThinker]

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

It reduces a person to an object. That's generally regarded as bad.

However, I suspect that you're not really asking what's wrong with objectification, but what's wrong with fanservice. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice, it's just that video games go so over the top with fanservice that the character is nothing but sex appeal. Hell, even THAT wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that that describes the vast majority of female characters in gaming. Males in games are almost completely defined by what makes them unique, and they're well represented in pretty much every character type, and in the rare instance where they are objectified, it's easy to overlook because it doesn't represent a major problem with the industry. Females in games aren't represented nearly as well, and it's easier to find a stripper than a well-realized character who is also female.

TL;DR: Sexual objectification would actually be somewhat tolerable if it wasn't so ubiquitous.

Why is it regarded as bad ? i do not that it is degrading in any way but that might be due to the fact that i have a open mind as i am of the opinion that games should pleasing to women as well as men equally and developers should try to add just as much stuff there is for men to see for women too so both of them can find games fun in a new way.

 

[Shanahanapp]

I think people should worry less about "What if a female character was in this scene?" and actually think about the scene in question. Did the scene make you uncomfortable? Did it make you feel like a character was being objectified? Was it one among countless cases of your gender being objectified? Because if not then who cares what the scene would be like if it was different?

I swear people actively look for things to be offended by.

 

[JagermanXcell]

Pfffffft HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA No. But nice try that's hilarious.

To further elaborate on the "no", realize that the whole game Raiden is being used, it's basically the theme. Not only that but most people kind of... hate/don't care for him, so when he becomes free willy you're more weirded out than anything (or dying from laughter). And once we get to one of the most pinnacle (and what previous posts pointed out earlier, stupidest) parts of the game, you still don't care, he doesn't care, the Arsenal Tengus don't care, Solidus doesn't care, Snake doesn't care, and why? Because the game goes bat shit insane with context having NOTHING to do with the fact that he's naked doing cartwheels. Don't believe me?

"I SEE SCISSORS, 61" and other fun quotes, then come back to me and tell me Raiden is being objectified... because you and the game will be too busy trying to figure out what the f*** is going on.

EDIT:

Spoiler

If anyone wonders what sexulization looks like lol

The blog pic is hilarious and all but did you find any on Senator Armstrong's butt?
It's for... research...

 

[mecegirl]

EDIT:

Spoiler

If anyone wonders what sexulization looks like lol

The blog pic is hilarious and all but did you find any on Senator Armstrong's butt?
It's for... research...

Ask and you shall recive my friend.

Spoiler

edit: Bonus pic

Spoiler

Also a song
http://yukonthunderclutch.tumblr.com/post/100654447330/kazuyagoddamnmishima-wellllp-my-life-is

 

[Lightknight]

Sexual objectification requires the person being objectified to actually be a person. Not to be an object (even intellectual compilations of 1s and 0s). You cannot objectify and object. It is already an object. You can personify an object and then simulate objectification, but you cannot actually objectify it. Now, if A.I. ever becomes a thing then we can alter this discussion. But as is, these objects do not have dignity, they do not suffer embarrassment or joy or anything. Making them attractive is no more harmful than making a nude statue or drawing breasts on a vase.

The OP is quite right, male and female characters are both specifically designed to be attractive and so are shown sexually. Same as in movies, attractive actors and actresses are specifically hired for their looks along with their acting abilities (if even that). It is not unethical to cast or create attractive characters. It is, at worst, a relativistic moral issue that cannot be expected to be imposed on those who don't share the same moral values.

 

[TheArcaneThinker]

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

It reduces a person to an object. That's generally regarded as bad.

However, I suspect that you're not really asking what's wrong with objectification, but what's wrong with fanservice. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice, it's just that video games go so over the top with fanservice that the character is nothing but sex appeal. Hell, even THAT wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that that describes the vast majority of female characters in gaming. Males in games are almost completely defined by what makes them unique, and they're well represented in pretty much every character type, and in the rare instance where they are objectified, it's easy to overlook because it doesn't represent a major problem with the industry. Females in games aren't represented nearly as well, and it's easier to find a stripper than a well-realized character who is also female.

TL;DR: Sexual objectification would actually be somewhat tolerable if it wasn't so ubiquitous.

Why is it regarded as bad ? i do not that it is degrading in any way but that might be due to the fact that i have a open mind as i am of the opinion that games should pleasing to women as well as men equally and developers should try to add just as much stuff there is for men to see for women too so both of them can find games fun in a new way.

If I may jump in...

It is degrading because it reduces a character down to one thing. Try to put yourself in the following shoes; lets assume you went to school and worked your butt off for good grades. You went to college and became a master in your chosen field. You're smart, capable, and a great guy to boot. Maybe you're the type who always has the right thing to say, and can lighten even the darkest of moods; just a joy to be around. But you also have a large tool in your pants, and that is all anyone ever seems to care about. You can't get a job in your field because nobody takes you seriously, and instead insist you show off your package. When you go into the public eye you are all but demanded to dress provocatively. And forget about your personality; you never get any speaking lines except flirting. For all intents and purposes everything you are, everything that makes you...well you, has been ignored and thrown away. You, as a human being, don't matter. Nobody cares. All you are is a big d**k to be shown off for the enjoyment of countless nameless and faceless strangers.

Wouldn't you feel a bit degraded by that?

Yes but that is in real life what we are talking about here is fictional characters , that too in games and yes if such a thing did affect me or any person , it would be quite bad but in video games , i like to see all type of characters , strone ones , crazy ones , good looking ones , and what i think about them in the game does not affect any person i meet in real life.

 

[Lightknight]

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one.

Oh is that how most people do it?

To clarify things for the few people that won't have played MGS there are actually at least three equally valid and intentional ways to tell Meryl apart from other guards:

1. Watch for hip movement in first person
2. Hide and see who uses the ladies toilet
3. Choke each guard and see who has the higher pitched grunt

I always used the choke hold since it seemed like the quickest way.

Exactly.

Just like in real life, women often walk differently than men due to a wider pelvic angle required for child bearing. It is not sexist to design a female character's walk to mimic the walk of a real female. Same with the shape of the ass which is also frequently different than the male counterpart.

This isn't rocket science. It's actually even one easy way to tell the difference between a male or female skeleton.

 

[Albetta]

Sexual objectification requires the person being objectified to actually be a person. Not to be an object (even intellectual compilations of 1s and 0s). You cannot objectify and object. It is already an object. You can personify an object and then simulate objectification, but you cannot actually objectify it. Now, if A.I. ever becomes a thing then we can alter this discussion. But as is, these objects do not have dignity, they do not suffer embarrassment or joy or anything. Making them attractive is no more harmful than making a nude statue or drawing breasts on a vase.

I'm glad someone posted this, because I just came back to this thread and was about to say the same thing to some of the comments above. I don't have any problem with a character being sexualized in fiction, but I am very conscientious of people's feelings and emotions in real life. Often I am the mediator in arguments among my friends. It is nonsense to assume that games create a culture of sexual objectification, or reinforce it in any way. If you have problems delineating between fiction and reality, then you're psychological problems stem from a much deeper place than the vidya.

That being said, I think that there are places where sexualization is inappropriate. Not because it is "wrong" or "immoral", but because it clashes with a game's suspension of disbelief. There are sexy skins in games like LoL, because those games make no effort to build a coherent universe, and are perfectly ok with scantily clad barbarian chicks, or wacky rickety wooden mech walkers. If, however, I saw a scantily clad barbarian chick in, lets say, Skyrim, it would throw me for a bit of a loop. I wouldn't find it sexist or distasteful, simply out of place in a game that goes out of its way to feel real and tangible.

As one of my art teachers once said, "Nothing has to be realistic, just believable."

That is the pact made between entertainment media and the viewer. Is the Hulk realistic? Absolutely not. A twelve ton green man rippling with corded muscles is silly, but when we watch him rampage onscreen, he is believable within the context established. What context in LoL, or Soul Caliber, or Metroid, or Tomb Raider, or Dead or Alive invalidates the believability of the design of it's inhabiting characters, or should I say caricatures (as I believe most characters in media are)?

 

[Maximum Bert]

The game says she is uninterested in sex and then has her look and act like a dominatrix. Something is off with that. A person can dress how they want. A character need a damn reason.

When does the game say she is uninterested in sex? maybe it was a line somewhere but I dont remember any characters sexual orientation coming up in the games although some is implied from the story i.e Sophitia has children. To be fair I think they did a good job with Ivy as it seems no one forgets her once they see her although strangely somehow people forget Voldo how is that possible lol. Dont expect them to tie themselves to practicality fighters have to get the character across from just their appearance and style the essence of the game is beating the crap out of each other story and character development have very little place in most. Essentially SCs story is magic sword everyone wants magic sword and to make everyone standout you populate it with extreme characters. I always thought of Ivy as a blatant dominatrix character with her revealing standard outfit and whip sword although her alt costume is much more frilly and concealing to pay homage to her aristocratic upbringing although its probably even less suited to fighting in reality if you wanted to be pedantic.

I am not calling it the cancer killing the industry. I am calling it lazy. I'm calling it bad. I'm calling it shit. Laziness and childishness are perhaps "killing" the industry, but this is just one facet of that.

I disagree on it being lazy and bad they created a well designed memorable character that stands out and thats what they needed to do as for childishness thats really down to individual perspective usually I find it used when someone tries to shoot down something they disagree with but cant find why. seriously though not every game needs or indeed benefits from having things like sensible (by our worlds perspective) designs or indeed even a story in a lot of genres as long as it sets up the action it does not matter even if it is in a very simple way.

Also sorry for taking your quotes slightly out of context I know you were replying to other posts when you wrote those I was just trying to cut down on space and Im sure you remember what you were talking about anyway.

OT: It could be seen as sexual objectification or it could just be seen as a guy in the buff that you can make do silly things I do agree though that if Raiden was female and it was released today it would be very amusing to listen to the fallout.

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

Its bad dont do it hope that helps Its the topic atm as violence needs a rest and ofc it has still not been proven to effect people in the real world so this is the new way to demonise games although im sure there is a tiny minority who give a shit one way or the other. I also find it weird that a power fantasy is somehow better than partaking in sexual objectification in a game both are fake and surely both are just as purile. I am not sure what people are expecting though if games stopped sexual objectification they would somehow magically be better? or more excepted? I just want people to make desicions that benefit the game in some it pays to make stupid characters in others it doesnt they should not be thinking hmmm lets make or not make this character sexually objectified or worry that about such issues at all.

 

[JagermanXcell]

EDIT:

Spoiler

If anyone wonders what sexulization looks like lol

The blog pic is hilarious and all but did you find any on Senator Armstrong's butt?
It's for... research...

Ask and you shall recive my friend.

Spoiler

edit: Bonus pic

Spoiler

Also a song
http://yukonthunderclutch.tumblr.com/post/100654447330/kazuyagoddamnmishima-wellllp-my-life-is

AAAAAAW YES DOUBLE ARMSTRONG, Assess to Assess motherf**ker!... uh, I mean.... thankyouverymuch.

 

[Fappy]

why does it have to be in the current rend that's sadly going on in the gaming topics?

Because people want to talk about it?

I don't know, just making wild guesses here.