Million Dollar Actor, Five Dollar Writer

Ericb

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Illustro Cado said:
The plot reads like it was based off the first draft of the script; it would take a lot to salvage it but with some work it could be turned into something decent.
That's how a I feel for most of the FF games, aside from the Tactics one for PSX.

Not quite bad (I still consider FF VI to be as interesting idea), but preocuppied with so many plot elements that in the end it kinda of shoehorns the power of friendship and a few other tropes just to add some kind of sense of tying the loose ends of the game plot overall.
 

Starke

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Zalinski said:
How does RE4 suck, I don't get it.
The writing was once catagorized as the product of an 8 year old ADHD sufferer locked in a room with a stack of Buffy the Vampire Slayer comics. Oddly that's about the only way I can adiquitly explain how something could appear in nature that is that poorly written.

I'm not sure what it is, genuinly. It could be as simple as horrifically bad translation, or complex as social concepts of what it means to be a writer in Japanese culture. But the Resident Evil games as a franchise exhibit some of the worst writing in the industry.
Mordwyl said:
"Story" is no different than motivation when it comes to video games. Simply put, why are you playing? As you ponder this question even games such as Pac-man and Tetris have a "Story", where the objectives are to gather as many points as possible before the game becomes too difficult. RPGs elaborate on this motivation by expanding the question into several others, in turn producing a narrative the player has to carry out to win the game. It should also allow the player to immediately recognise the part of the story they're into when returning to the game. Hence yes, if the goal and the means to achieve it are not designed properly any game will suffer.

If we use my ideology for a story, then Spore wins. Back during its beta phases the game was going to be a modern evolution simulator, which unfortunately was scrapped for five mini-games on release and later on trying to expand the franchise with more inane mini-games. Where exactly has the goal to oversee the evolution of a being gone off to?
Uh... no.

I'm sorry. But, no.

I could spend a dozzen paragraphs explaining why each piece of your post is in error, but it boils down to this. A game has two major seperate components: gameplay and story. The quality of one will never effect the quality of the other. If you eliminate gameplay what you have is an interactive story, like the Star Trek "games" of the late 90s. If you eliminate the story you have an abstract game like Tetris or Bedazzeled.

Either one (or both) of these elements can drive player interest. My phone doesn't have nearly 2000 games of Bubble Breaker logged because it has an engaging story, it's because the gameplay is f'cking addictive as hell. On the other hand I can't remember how many games I've finished because I simply wanted to see the end of the story, and had long since become incredibly pissed with the gameplay. (Off hand Chrome saddly comes to mind as an example of this.) In some cases these do work hand in hand, Bioshock is a fairly savy and effective synergy of game and story, as is Half-Life 2. In other cases one has nothing to do with the other. This is the norm. Most recently, I've been playing Divinity 2, where the gameplay (kill things and take their shit), and the story (something about saving the world) have nothing to do with one another.

The problem is, you are trying to generate an ideology, what you need is a methodology.

EDIT: I'll admit to one serious exception to the rule that there's never any crossover between gameplay and story. Games like X-Com, Civilizaiton, Sins of a Solar Empire, or (I assume) Spore really don't have a story inherantly, what they do is encourage the player to create one based on their game. I'm not discounting those, and this kind of inherant player created story can lead to some incredibly fantastic experiences, and these stories can theoretically drive player engagement. But Pac-Man and Tetris are not examples of this in the least.
 

the protaginist

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My vote goes out to Oblivion. It wasn't that badly written(nowhere near Morrowind though. Yeah, i'm one of them. But still, and I know i'm the thirty-balillionth person to point this out, but the fucking voice actors. there were about 12 of them, not counting Sean Bean and Patrick Stewart. My favorite bit where this comes up is when the Blades are swearing allegiance to Martin at Cloud Top, hearing the same 2 voices go "Hail!" 6 times in a row is actually funny.
 

Rainboq

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The Halo series, all I can say to that plot is "Bwaaaaaa? Am I reading this right or are they just joking?"
 

Starke

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the protaginist said:
My vote goes out to Oblivion. It wasn't that badly written(nowhere near Morrowind though. Yeah, i'm one of them. But still, and I know i'm the thirty-balillionth person to point this out, but the fucking voice actors. there were about 12 of them, not counting Sean Bean and Patrick Stewart. My favorite bit where this comes up is when the Blades are swearing allegiance to Martin at Cloud Top, hearing the same 2 voices go "Hail!" 6 times in a row is actually funny.
Oblivion's voice asignment was pretty theroughly fucked. If they'd created a system that would slightly alter the character's voices, it might have worked. As it is, the writing is just really bland.
 

Zalinski

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Is it wrong that I loved the cliched lines of Leon and his cocky demeanor? Am I in the minority here?
 

Starke

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Zalinski said:
Is it wrong that I loved the cliched lines of Leon and his cocky demeanor? Am I in the minority here?
Probably not. Yeah, there's definitly territory where you can find the terrible writing in a game endeering. I'm guilty of this with Two Worlds and Far Cry. As for if you're in the minority? I don't know. There's a lot of fans of the RE franchise.

EDIT: If I came across as chewing on you, I appologize, that wasn't my intent at all.
 

Starke

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Rainboq said:
The Halo series, all I can say to that plot is "Bwaaaaaa? Am I reading this right or are they just joking?"
Bungie's pretty (im)famous for burring depth into their games, but my understanding is that Halo does get deeper and more complex when you include the novels and other suplemental material. (I say "I understand" because sometime between Myth and Oni I stopped caring about Bungie's writing, so I never actually dug into the suplimentary material for Halo.)
 

dnadns

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Crunchy English said:
I Hate the story to Bayonetta. Like... a lot. I'm told that's just me though.
Don't believe what other people tell you. We are very much on the same page.
Why all the hate for Alone in the Dark?
I actually liked the story of the first one back then. Turned out to be pretty Lovecraftian.
Or is everybody talking about the most recent entry (which I skipped)?
 

Illustro Cado

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Tears of Blood said:
I thought RE4's writing was good, I thought Metal Gear's writing was completely brilliant, and I thought that Fable 2's writing was just fine. Never once during any of those games did I stop and say "Well, why didn't they just do _____ instead?"
I concur on RE4. Not because it was good per se, but because it felt like I was playing a B movie. It was "Evil Dead: The Game"-it didn't take itself seriously, the atmosphere was fantastic, and some the things you could do (and have happen to you) were mind-blowingly awesome. The only thing that could have made it better is if they replaced Leon with Ash and let Bruce Campbell have at it.

Metal Gear is a mixed bag. Kojima knows how to compel, the problem is that he -really- needs an editor. I remember watching a friend play through the end sequence once and there was a character who said the same damn thing five times in a row with slightly different wording each time. I don't mind long cutscenes when they get to the point; as you can imagine, that bugged the hell out of me.

I've not played enough of Fable II to have an opinion one way or another, I just know I wasn't impressed by what I saw. I had borrowed a friend's 360 at the time and after an hour of gameplay I decided I'd rather blow through Mass Effect again.
 

Zalinski

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I agree with Illustro Cado, compared to most games I've played, RE4's story telling Is almost epic.
 

Artorius

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i would say RedFaction.Gue
it had epic failure script with and even worse implemantion/bad grammar/..
and lolz @ DMC 4 harhar.. that sucked @ss..
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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Shamus Young said:
Experienced Points: Million Dollar Actor, Five Dollar Writer

Why hire a master chef to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

Read Full Article
Because they can advertise "Oblivion" as "Starring Jean-Luc Picard" or "Fallout 3" as "Starring Oskar Schindler" while actually paying said actors for about half an hour's worth of actual work.
 
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Jaredin said:
Irridium said:
Final Fantasy games have writing that makes me want to rage. All of the ones I played anyway.
Final Fantasy writing has some of the best there is out there. I have even seen people who have never seen a video game enjoy them...

If anyone in the industry wants to aspire to great stories, its always good to take a lef from the FF Book
Megamet said:
Irridium said:
Final Fantasy games have writing that makes me want to rage. All of the ones I played anyway.
Are you High? Final Fantasy games are the Epitome of good writing. It's the only thing it has going for it, considering it's gameplay is a turn based system of copious level grinding (FF 11 and 12 not withstanding). Have you actually played the games or are you just going by what every one else said?

Back on topic, I don't agree with what you said about unskipable being a collection of bad game stories, because there are quite a number of them whose plots get better as you progress further into the game.
I played FF 2, 3, 6, and 10.

FF 2 I can't remember much of, since I was a wee lad back then, but 3 I know was really boring. 6 was actually alright, I have good memories from it. In FF 10 I just really hated the characters. They really annoyed me and I just couldn't get into the story because of it. The story may have been good, but the characters utterly ruined it.

I would have played FF7, but one of my friends decided it would be nice to tell me every single damn plot twist in the game, so it lost its appeal to me pretty quickly.

I haven't played them all, so I probably missed some good ones.
And I know people like the games, I understand that, but I just don't like them all that much.

I'm hopeing FF13 will be good though.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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My rant/opinion


I think bad writing is as often as not in the eye of the beholder. This is why you have so many arguements between fanboys over what "rocks" and what "sucks".

When it comes to video games, I think in some cases more time could be spent, but I also think there are issues involved where the game developer and writer might not see see eye to eye, or a writer is being asked to pretty much create a story around a bunch of random stuff a comittee decided fanboys would think of as awesome. Not exactly an excuse, but me pointing out that in many cases I do not think bad writing could have been avoided within a franchise without changing the entire design process that spawned the game. What's more when a company is beating a franchise into a ground, coming up with say a fourth installment of a series that long ago tied up the initial storyline that made it great, and probably a couple of
spin off stories as well... there isn't much that can be done to save it.

This is to say nothing of series that change their writers/design teams between chapters, or ones that decide to write things to be mysterious and obtuse, and figure the mystery will keep things going and they can always wrap everything up later. Of course in the end they wind up with a situation where any answer they contrive to tie everything up will be unsatisfying.

But then again "bad" is subjective as you can see by all the people who either love or hate the plotline of "Halo". Not to mention games that are attempting to be a homage to a certain kind of genere. I mean when I play a "Zombie Survival" game I expect a certain kind of stereotypical plot. I don't expect anything really new and differant, and the quality mostly comes down to how well they manage to do the expected cliques rather than whether they use them at all. Some people automatically call something stereotypical bad for being stereotypical. I don't nessicarly agree.


Then of course there are works based on established properties. A lot of the best games of this type come accross as having bad writing to the uninitiated as they rarely take the time to explain themselves. In most cases this is the correct approach because to do otherwise wastes a lot of time in retreading things, or involves trying to relaunch and redefine a well loved franchise to simplify it for people first encountering it, to the vast annoyance of the core audience.

Looking at say the original "Alone In The Dark" game as an example, the quality of the writing is debatable. I personally believe that at the time that game was developed the core audience for it were horror fans and gamers. There was a lot of overlap then between PnP gamers and video gamers, while this still exists, then it was even more pronounced as you could guess by things like the various "D&D" Gold Box games and such. Most people gaming and who were into horror at least had a passing knowlege of HP Lovecraft's writing (directly, not just cribbed from others), or at least the "Call Of Cthulhu" RPG. The game had a few referances to the mythos, and took a rather investigative approach to the story rather than telling you exactly what was going on in excruiciating detail every 5 minutes (I guess similar to a recent article praising Half Life for a similar practice). When it was over a lot of people felt the game was well written/well designed because they felt they got enough of an answer and indication of what was going on as they should from that kind of a story. The game spawned not one, but TWO sequels as well as the "Jack In The Dark" mini game.

Opinions vary like with everything, but in some cases too much information winds up being a bad thing. It all depends on the effect your going for.

As far as Devil May Cry 4 goes, well ask yourself how many series of anything have managed to maintain good writing through 4 installments. It has happened, but it's rare. Most of the common exceptions like say "Final Fantasy" do it because the series is a label/brand name as opposed to an ongoing story. Chances are DMC4 was designed by a team of people who felt there were enough fanboys who wanted to thump more demons, that they could do another game. The cinematics like the one mentioned there were doubtlessly concocted to be pure fan service (Nero Vs. Dante, I always wanted to see it like that...). The whole set up being an excuse for that to happen. Grahm was saying (in Unskippable) that parts of it seemed pretty gay, but also consider that by this point a lot of the hardcore fanbase are probably people who were so obsessed that they were writing stuff like DMC slashfic. The writer was probably told flat out the scene was intended to be a pure fan service fight scene, with enough vague homoeroticism to fanservice that crowd, but not so gay as to alientate the heterosexual fanbase, with a piece of female eye candy present with one of the characters to make it obvious that they aren't ACTUALLY supposed to be gay.

Of course then again consider Devil May Cry already passed it's hero out to be used in Shin Megami Tensei: Nocture (fairly well actually). I got the impression then that they weren't taking the franchise seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if they think they can milk a couple of bucks if they decide to release "Devil May Cry 5: Devil May Crying Game" based on shocking gender revelations about "your favorite DMC characters" despite the fact that DMC 4 seemed to hit the budget shelves fairly quickly.
 

whaleswiththumbs

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I don't know, don't usually pay as much attention to it, and that makes me feel alittle ashamed as a gamer whos two things he wants ina game is good story and good gameplay.

Although i guess i notice when it's good or bad, acceptable story seems to just slink through my radar like a stealth bomber over Soviet Russia. Luckily I am not in the same feild as Shamus, because i would have nothing to talk about.
 

Mr Thomsos

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SilverKyo said:
I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I absolutely hated the plot for Bad Company... and the incredibly broken gameplay didn't help it's case at all, just served to piss me off more.
I agree ! I couldnt STAND that game!
 

Shujen

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JeanLuc761 said:
Shujen said:
Also, Assassin's Creed. Fantastically detailed period-specific cities, marred by a Dan Brown plotline.
Am I the only one who thinks Dan Brown is an exceptional writer? Digital Fortress, Deception Point and The Da Vinchi Code are among my favorite books :[
Dan Brown's novels can be viewed as a triumph of marketing over substance. But then, so can a lot of things. Which reminds me: Modern Warfare 2. There's Tom Clancy, and then there's Tom Clancy's wet dream. At least Duke Nukem never took himself too seriously.
 

JeanLuc761

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Shujen said:
Dan Brown's novels can be viewed as a triumph of marketing over substance. But then, so can a lot of things. Which reminds me: Modern Warfare 2. There's Tom Clancy, and then there's Tom Clancy's wet dream. At least Duke Nukem never took himself too seriously.
I suppose that's a decent description. I personally enjoy his stories if for nothing else than their utter uniqueness.
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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Shamus Young said:
The Unskippable series is a catalog of agonizing scenes where developers squandered vast resources animating stories that weren't worth telling in the first place.
WITH some notable exceptions. Borderlands had a fairly well-done intro, for example. The reason Unskippable did an episode on it was because they saw a chance for some jokes in there. Otherwise though, the intro does a fairly good job of setting the pace for the rest of the game's atmosphere. Same goes with the Left 4 Dead intro. It wasn't a poorly done cinematic at all, just one that some people saw some opportunities to make jokes around.

All-in-all though, I agree with the article's main point. I'm not as analytical about stories as you or Yahtzee seem to be (though the more I see your guys' work, the more I find myself dissecting stories), but I'm the kind of guy they put the stories in for, just like you. Going back to your old Champions Online comic, I'm the guy in that trio who actually knew the completely absurd story behind that mission we all just did. In fact, whenever I'm questing with friends in an MMO I tend to fall behind because I'm the only guy in the group actually stopping to read the text, but I'm digressing.

As one of the people whom the story is included for, I have to agree with the sentiment that if they're going to tell me said story, then they might as well put an effort into it. Otherwise an FPS that claims story as one of its main selling points might as well just be Serious Sam if the story and/or storytelling are terrible, because at least Sam doesn't pull me out of the pwnfest of baddies being spammed at me to tell me some terrible story.