Misandry

[Dizchu]

From what I can tell, misogyny and misandry often go hand-in-hand. You won't often find a radical feminist, for instance, that hates men/masculinity and doesn't also have extremely narrow expectations of what women "should" be. If you look through some of the more extreme feminist works, misandry tends to come in similar amounts to misogyny. They may claim that women are "superior", but what they actually mean is some women are superior, ie. women like them.

The same thing works for PUAs, certain MRAs, "alpha male" douchebag dudebros... They mistreat women on the basis of their gender but they'll judge other men equally, if not more, harshly. They may go on about how "men are supposed to be dominant" but what they actually mean is that men that are as braindead as they are should call the shots.

It's not about hating others, it's about making yourself seem as special and important as possible. Even misanthropy (which isn't gendered) works this way. "Bahh, humans are so dumb and sheep-like, unlike me who has figured everything out and is better than everyone".

 

[Inglorious891]

Well, considering that most of what I hear able alleged man hating supposedly comes from feminists, yea, that is a major point. One could argue that these PUA/dark enlightenment types are an extreme example of toxic masculinity.

What points are these PUAs/redpill'd guys/etc. are trying to get across? That you need to act sterotypically "masculine" in order to have women interested in you? Personally, I still do think this partially applies; not in the form of, "the guy needs to be the one in control constantly", but women are still attracted to many forms of masculinity, and no amount of feminist/MRA movements is going to rid the world of that.

I aplogize if things were unclear for you. I thought the premise was quite clear; 'misandry' as often as the accusation is lobbed at feminists, is more often found under stereotypical redpill subgroups.

It's not just redpill groups that do this. Hell, I hang out with guys who occasionally make jokes concerning emasculating other men, and there are times where I'm curious if they're half serious or not, but honestly I just shrug it off.

In the end, the idea that most forms of emasculation (or "toxic masulinity") come from other men versus women is a new idea, but it's not a stunning revelation by any means. Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of anything to say on the subject besides, "yeah, shit happens and guys can be dicks to eachother".

 

[Vuxul]

In the end this all comes back to the socially defined gender roles there have appeared through the years.
PUAs and radical feminists do this a lot but in slightly different ways. The PUAs usually want all males to follow their own idea on how males should act, which ends up being the quite old fashioned macho ideal. On top of this they see the goal of life to have as much sex as possible and see themselves as superior. Therefore it makes them happy that they are much better than all those unsuccessful males that are therefore obviously underneath them. They have a tendency to mean those males are too feminine.
Radical feminists end up despising those old traditional methods of acting since they see it as oppressive without considering the personality of the woman in question, this makes them feel superior since they feel themselves liberated in comparison to the ?unfree? women that have not seen the right path. Both ideas end up being oppressive against their own gender.
For me at least this shows that the issues are built into the very fabric of gender identity which forces people to act in a certain way, this can readily be seen in clothes. The best way to fix this would be to allow people to be who they are but alas that seems quite utopian. XD

 

[renegade7]

Serious question, are the people posting this stuff actually having sex? Like, women are agreeing to have sex with them? Because I have a strange little feeling that they're horseshitting, because that is not the attitude of a person who is satisfied with his sex life.

If they are, I'd legitimately like to see what would happen if the sexual partners of people who say things like

With our tight game we have to be entertainers who create drama and excitement in a girl's life, just long enough so that she spreads her legs and makes sexy noises, and even though she did commit such an intimate act with us, she will soon lose interest or simply get bored, and then move on to the next shiny cock that catches her eye.

and

my intensive pursuit of sex in the past decade has sated me where I wouldn't be upset if I failed.

(which just sounds creepy)

and who call their style of casual intimacy

harem maintenance

and

riding the slut carousel

knew about it.

 

[freaper]

Wait wait wait, is there really a no boys allowed STEM career thing at schools (I'm assuming you mean Science Technology Engineer and Mathematics).

That is indeed what I mean by STEM, and yes, it did happen - a quick search should find you the original article (if you prefer not to go through an MRA site for it.)

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc. This brings me to the OT:

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

Congratulations, you have hit the nail directly on the head - your internetz will be delivered in 3-5 business days.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

It is not just men.

I'll take your word on that, but wow that is amazing that someone would even entertain that idea. Sorry male child you were born with a penis so you are not allowed to join this event because women are so few and discriminated in this field, so we will discriminate you.

C'mon, you know very well that women aren't incentivized to work in the field of positive sciences nearly as much as men are. If an injection of female students, researchers, etc. can shift the balance towards equal -I guess, "natural"- distribution in those fields in the long term, we should be able to turn a blind eye to this type of (positive) discrimination.

 

[Dizchu]

Serious question, are the people posting this stuff actually having sex? Like, women are agreeing to have sex with them? Because I have a strange little feeling that they're horseshitting, because that is not the attitude of a person who is satisfied with his sex life.

Probably not. Men often like to exaggerate their sexual "conquests" and have typically been raised in environments that have encouraged this since they were teenagers.


This pretty much sums up this kind of behaviour ahaha.

 

[Beliyal]

Only thing i can add really is that woman themselves need to decide what they want as a gender.

snip

There are 3.5 billion women on Earth and all are different human beings with different personalities, ideals, moralities, experiences, sexualities, social and cultural backgrounds, religions and various other creeds and beliefs. So no, we can't decide what we want "as a gender", because our gender is not our only defining characteristic. You can't expect 3.5 billion humans to decide on how to behave as a hive mind. And there isn't one set of rules on how to be a woman, how to think as a woman or how to behave as a woman.

Yes, some women believe stripping for money is okay and within their right to choose as a lifestyle, while some women will be outraged. Is this surprising? I assume some people of more liberal upbringing will not care if someone strips for money; people from conservative traditional societies influenced by some of the more constrictive religious systems will think it's a sin and to be punished.

Me? I believe feminism is about giving every person a choice to be what they want to be without defining them through their gender and without using their gender to impose restrictions or demand actions.

OT: This ties pretty well with the topic, as these people obviously consider that "all men" and "all women" are [insert some stereotypes] and base their entire world views on that. This is a very sad and potentially dangerous world view to have, especially when it's forced onto other people and/or promoted, even taught, as the only acceptable behavioral pattern for an entire gender. I know, no one is teaching men to be pickup artists, but some of this is reflected in how we, for example, expect men to be "hunters" and women to be the "prey", how we tell men to "man up" and just ask a girl out, while we teach girls to just wait passively (and then shame, discriminate and attack those who do not conform).

 

[Colour Scientist]

I don't know why everyone's being so agro, Misandry is one of my favourite secondary Game of Thrones characters.

 

[BoredRolePlayer]

Wait wait wait, is there really a no boys allowed STEM career thing at schools (I'm assuming you mean Science Technology Engineer and Mathematics).

That is indeed what I mean by STEM, and yes, it did happen - a quick search should find you the original article (if you prefer not to go through an MRA site for it.)

Sexism does not exist in a vacuum and outdated gender roles affect everybody. I begun to ask myself for every feminist topic if it's a woman issue or a person issue; can it affect a man and how; what is the other gender's equivalent to the problem; etc. This brings me to the OT:

Women do this too. A lot. The only difference is because it's so much easier for them to be a PUAs they don't need a discussion page. Shitty people whom use others, especially for sex, will always exist. They have always been shitty misogynists/misandrists whom hold distorted viewpoints on the other gender. This is not news.

Congratulations, you have hit the nail directly on the head - your internetz will be delivered in 3-5 business days.

These are exactly the points that everybody needs to keep in mind when dealing with this subject; we ALL have the capacity to be extremely shitty towards everyone else, whether or not it has anything to do with their gender, and there will always be a fringe element willing to take it the ugliest extreme.

It is not just men.

I'll take your word on that, but wow that is amazing that someone would even entertain that idea. Sorry male child you were born with a penis so you are not allowed to join this event because women are so few and discriminated in this field, so we will discriminate you.

C'mon, you know very well that women aren't incentivized to work in the field of positive sciences nearly as much as men are. If an injection of female students, researchers, etc. can shift the balance towards equal -I guess, "natural"- distribution in those fields in the long term, we should be able to turn a blind eye to this type of (positive) discrimination.

Well why aren't they incentivized to do science fields? I'm all for more different perspectives in science based fields, but we need to ask why don't they want to go in these fields? I also refuse to say "You know we can let this discrimination slide, because it's for the greater good". That isn't solving the issue of why women are not joining science based fields. And honestly that is a double standard, and hell if you are having a group of women give speech's at STEM's or what ever why not have guys there? At least then they will see "There are women in this field, and very smart and in high position's", and not think it's a dude career.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Serious question, are the people posting this stuff actually having sex? Like, women are agreeing to have sex with them? Because I have a strange little feeling that they're horseshitting, because that is not the attitude of a person who is satisfied with his sex life.

I guess it really depends. Obviously a lot of PUAs are trying to sell products, and have incentive to lie, but a lot of guys don't really have much incentive to lie about it (one could argue bragging rights, but if they're posting anonymously on the internet then I don't really see why it matters). That being said, just because someone is having sex doesn't automatically mean they are happy with their sex life.

And, let's be honest, the creepy attitude and weird thoughts regarding relationships might turn off a lot of women, but women are no more immune to making occasionally strange and/or bad decisions over whom they sleep with than men are. Charlie Sheen, Tommy Lee, Jerry O'Connell, and Rick Salomon never seem to have a lot of issues finding sex partners, despite often times having serious substance abuse, partying, and fidelity issues.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The guy quoted in the OP sounds more like a shithead with a serious case of self-loathing than someone who hates anything because the whole thing comes across as defeatist and hatred takes energy which I don't think he has.

 

[R.K. Meades]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

snip

You don't need to fork out for an expensive e-book or 'boot camp' to learn about that stuff. Be practical and proactive. If you don't know how to protect yourself and have a weak physical presence, improve your diet and find somebody to train with-- your health, discipline, and confidence will improve. Don't know how to dress? Seek input from someone who does. Can't dance? Same situation. No idea what to say when you speak with people in social settings? Tough luck-- continue approaching people, and patterns will emerge. Work with the good, and discard the bad. Never lose sight of the big picture. You'll be making new friends, acquiring professional contacts, and meeting potential romantic partners along the way-- all without paying somebody to teach you a bunch of canned lines and tacky gimmicks.

Are you going to encounter people who sincerely believe that working on refining your lifestyle is an act of conformity? Absolutely. If they want to settle for their current lot in life, that's fine. Leave them to it.

C'mon, you know very well that women aren't incentivized to work in the field of positive sciences nearly as much as men are.

What are the incentives? The fellas I went to school with who ended up pursuing careers in the hard sciences make me feel dead inside. Hefty student debt. A lack of stability in their work, as they tend to rely on grants and contracts. Long hours. Few women in their social circles-- for a hetero guy who didn't meet somebody in high school, it's a tough road ahead. Until they work their way up the ladder, the pay isn't amazing either-- a first-year research assistant doesn't pocket much more than I did working as a bouncer during my undergrad years.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm not saying that the MRM is needed,

Er, isn't that exactly what you said when you said "Feminism without MRA is an ignorant incomplete movement"?

But, if you just mean that feminism needs to look at male gender roles as well, that's fair enough, but I believe that the feminists that don't agree are in the tiny minority on this.

 

[R.K. Meades]

snip

Groups like RSD and Love Systems can charge funny money for books,[footnote]poison [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Systems-Routines-Manual-Volume-ebook/dp/B002ZRQJ24].[/footnote] but my argument is that you can acquire that same knowledge (free of the chicanery) by networking in the real world. People like feeling valued. When you ask somebody for guidance, picture the message that's sending to them-- "he's saying that I'm a good dancer." For every individual who blanks you, there will be half a dozen others who are happy to lend their expertise.

There is no substitute for experience. People at my old gym used to share posts from PUAhate for a laugh. These rants featured guys who had spent their money, had read books like The Mystery Method, Magic Bullets, and Bang, but had never pulled off a decent approach. For those who are hell-bent on learning from books as they develop, go straight to the source-- PUAs lift most of their ideas (canned lines, compliance games, and so on) from marketing and psychology books.

If your takeaway from my post was "it's easy," it really isn't. On day one, most young men are going to be chumps-- out of shape, poorly dressed, and socially inept. The first step is acknowledging that there are no easy answers. For the price of one of these PUA boot camps, you could purchase 2-3 decent outfits, a gym membership, good supplements, and a few books to improve your knowledge base. Understand that the primary goal of these PUA 'gurus' is getting you to come back for more. You could get blown out by every single woman that you approach over the course of a weekend, and they'll try to spin a tale about how that losing streak can end-- for a nominal fee. No dice.

 

[R.K. Meades]

Groups like RSD

Did you miss my comment on RSD in my previous post where I called RSD: "woefully inadequate information at inflated prices"

I didn't-- RSD and Love Systems were namechecked because they are among the biggest names in that business. It would have been just as easy to mention Kezia Noble, Adam Lyons, or Mehow.

 

[R.K. Meades]

No such luck. I'm more than familiar with how their communities operate - their ideas, programs, and lairs - and as somebody who's worked clubs for years, I have met quite a number of PUAs you would recognise. One of the few PUAs who didn't annoy the hell out of me was a guy who goes by Cajun.

Enlighten us. Aside from Strauss, aka Style, who else would you vouch for?

 

[freaper]

C'mon, you know very well that women aren't incentivized to work in the field of positive sciences nearly as much as men are. If an injection of female students, researchers, etc. can shift the balance towards equal -I guess, "natural"- distribution in those fields in the long term, we should be able to turn a blind eye to this type of (positive) discrimination.

Well why aren't they incentivized to do science fields? I'm all for more different perspectives in science based fields, but we need to ask why don't they want to go in these fields? I also refuse to say "You know we can let this discrimination slide, because it's for the greater good". That isn't solving the issue of why women are not joining science based fields. And honestly that is a double standard, and hell if you are having a group of women give speech's at STEM's or what ever why not have guys there? At least then they will see "There are women in this field, and very smart and in high position's", and not think it's a dude career.

You hit it on the head with your last point: we as a society still think hard sciences are for men and human sciences are for women. A friend of mine had to file statistics for the department of diversity -or something along those lines- for our university. She found that the biggest discrepancy between male-female representation in a faculty wasn't in engineering or computer sciences (although it was still pretty bad, with very few girls taking part in those courses) but in pedagogy and pharmacology, with almost no straight guys present. I specify straight guys, because the very few who did choose to study in those fields were disproportionately more homosexual than in other faculties. There's this running theme at our campus that the architects always have to organize parties with pharma or else it's a sausage fest on one side and a clam bake on the other.

 

[Jux]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

Incels are a strange group from what I've seen. On one level I want to empathize with them, because I know how it felt to be awkward and feel rejected (though most of it was all in my head, a side effect of the depression), but despite the PUA rejection, they still buy into that alpha/beta/omega nonsense. It's like they've resigned themselves to being alone and hate women for the percieved rejection, and hate PUAs (or more broadly 'alpha males') because they 'get all the women'.

 

[R.K. Meades]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

Incels are a strange group from what I've seen. On one level I want to empathize with them, because I know how it felt to be awkward and feel rejected (though most of it was all in my head, a side effect of the depression), but despite the PUA rejection, they still buy into that alpha/beta/omega nonsense. It's like they've resigned themselves to being alone and hate women for the percieved rejection, and hate PUAs (or more broadly 'alpha males') because they 'get all the women'.

That's about right. You are talking about people with numerous issues to overcome, yet they somehow expected a few e-books and a PUA boot camp to get that dormant Mr. Perfect to emerge from his chrysalis.

 

[Bocaj2000]

I'm not saying that the MRM is needed,

Er, isn't that exactly what you said when you said "Feminism without MRA is an ignorant incomplete movement"?

But, if you just mean that feminism needs to look at male gender roles as well, that's fair enough, but I believe that the feminists that don't agree are in the tiny minority on this.

Please excuse my oversimplification used to make a point. I'd prefer that you critique my whole argument instead of my individual sentences.

It's not just gender roles. Those play very small parts in the experiences of each sex. I'd argue that anything that doesn't involve biology can be applied to both sexes: rape, body image, insecurity, etc. These are human problems that many feminist types look at through a female lens and minimize the male experiences of these issues. The amount of people who do it, a lot or a little, doesn't change the fact that it's common enough to be a problem.