Misandry

[R.K. Meades]

No such luck. I'm more than familiar with how their communities operate - their ideas, programs, and lairs - and as somebody who's worked clubs for years, I have met quite a number of PUAs you would recognise. One of the few PUAs who didn't annoy the hell out of me was a guy who goes by Cajun.

Enlighten us. Aside from Strauss, aka Style, who else would you vouch for?

 

[freaper]

C'mon, you know very well that women aren't incentivized to work in the field of positive sciences nearly as much as men are. If an injection of female students, researchers, etc. can shift the balance towards equal -I guess, "natural"- distribution in those fields in the long term, we should be able to turn a blind eye to this type of (positive) discrimination.

Well why aren't they incentivized to do science fields? I'm all for more different perspectives in science based fields, but we need to ask why don't they want to go in these fields? I also refuse to say "You know we can let this discrimination slide, because it's for the greater good". That isn't solving the issue of why women are not joining science based fields. And honestly that is a double standard, and hell if you are having a group of women give speech's at STEM's or what ever why not have guys there? At least then they will see "There are women in this field, and very smart and in high position's", and not think it's a dude career.

You hit it on the head with your last point: we as a society still think hard sciences are for men and human sciences are for women. A friend of mine had to file statistics for the department of diversity -or something along those lines- for our university. She found that the biggest discrepancy between male-female representation in a faculty wasn't in engineering or computer sciences (although it was still pretty bad, with very few girls taking part in those courses) but in pedagogy and pharmacology, with almost no straight guys present. I specify straight guys, because the very few who did choose to study in those fields were disproportionately more homosexual than in other faculties. There's this running theme at our campus that the architects always have to organize parties with pharma or else it's a sausage fest on one side and a clam bake on the other.

 

[Jux]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

Incels are a strange group from what I've seen. On one level I want to empathize with them, because I know how it felt to be awkward and feel rejected (though most of it was all in my head, a side effect of the depression), but despite the PUA rejection, they still buy into that alpha/beta/omega nonsense. It's like they've resigned themselves to being alone and hate women for the percieved rejection, and hate PUAs (or more broadly 'alpha males') because they 'get all the women'.

 

[R.K. Meades]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

Incels are a strange group from what I've seen. On one level I want to empathize with them, because I know how it felt to be awkward and feel rejected (though most of it was all in my head, a side effect of the depression), but despite the PUA rejection, they still buy into that alpha/beta/omega nonsense. It's like they've resigned themselves to being alone and hate women for the percieved rejection, and hate PUAs (or more broadly 'alpha males') because they 'get all the women'.

That's about right. You are talking about people with numerous issues to overcome, yet they somehow expected a few e-books and a PUA boot camp to get that dormant Mr. Perfect to emerge from his chrysalis.

 

[Bocaj2000]

I'm not saying that the MRM is needed,

Er, isn't that exactly what you said when you said "Feminism without MRA is an ignorant incomplete movement"?

But, if you just mean that feminism needs to look at male gender roles as well, that's fair enough, but I believe that the feminists that don't agree are in the tiny minority on this.

Please excuse my oversimplification used to make a point. I'd prefer that you critique my whole argument instead of my individual sentences.

It's not just gender roles. Those play very small parts in the experiences of each sex. I'd argue that anything that doesn't involve biology can be applied to both sexes: rape, body image, insecurity, etc. These are human problems that many feminist types look at through a female lens and minimize the male experiences of these issues. The amount of people who do it, a lot or a little, doesn't change the fact that it's common enough to be a problem.

 

[Bocaj2000]

From what I can tell, misogyny and misandry often go hand-in-hand. You won't often find a radical feminist, for instance, that hates men/masculinity and doesn't also have extremely narrow expectations of what women "should" be. If you look through some of the more extreme feminist works, misandry tends to come in similar amounts to misogyny. They may claim that women are "superior", but what they actually mean is some women are superior, ie. women like them.

The same thing works for PUAs, certain MRAs, "alpha male" douchebag dudebros... They mistreat women on the basis of their gender but they'll judge other men equally, if not more, harshly. They may go on about how "men are supposed to be dominant" but what they actually mean is that men that are as braindead as they are should call the shots.

It's not about hating others, it's about making yourself seem as special and important as possible. Even misanthropy (which isn't gendered) works this way. "Bahh, humans are so dumb and sheep-like, unlike me who has figured everything out and is better than everyone".

Good call! I never made that connection before. Thanks for sharing

 

[Childe]

The problem I've found is that almost everything goes two ways. Yes Men are self absorbed and lots of us treat women horribly and there is no excuse for that. However we do seem to ignore that women do similar things to men on an almost equal basis. Men are like bulls running straight at something until they hit it then moving on. Women are more like matadors, leading the bull where they want them to go. Neither version is healthy for long term relationships or for cultivating respect for both genders. Of course not everyone is like this and there are plenty of decent people out there, its just that the decent people are not focused on, the bad people are.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not about hating others, it's about making yourself seem as special and important as possible. Even misanthropy (which isn't gendered) works this way. "Bahh, humans are so dumb and sheep-like, unlike me who has figured everything out and is better than everyone".

What about misanthrophy where you consider yourself to be part of the problem too? Because that's the camp I fall into

I perfectly agree with the rest of your post though. That's the depressing thing about this whole mess. It's all about being a "real" man or a "proper" woman.

 

[Inglorious891]

What about misanthrophy where you consider yourself to be part of the problem too? Because that's the camp I fall into

Maybe it's because I have the wrong definition of misanthrophy, but I'm confused about what you mean by this. You dislike humankind because of dumb things humans do, but you also dislike yourself because you feel like you do the same things?

 

[WhiteNachos]

For all the scaremongering about 'misandric' feminists, I think people are looking in the wrong direction. There is plenty of misandry out there, I just think most of it is coming from other men.

cap: without a doubt

I don't think there's more PUA then feminists and even if they were, I'd still be more concerned with misandric feminists. Most people don't take PUAs seriously, and they certainly don't have the clout feminists have. They're not a political movement so their opinions don't affect anyone aside from people they come into contact with.

Not to say that every man-hating tumblr feminist is worthy of concern though.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I have to ask what the point of this thread is. Are we supposed to be discussing how men can act in ways that degrade other men? About how most "misandry" (not that it exists in the first place).

misandry
/ˈmɪsəndrɪ/
noun
1.
hatred of men

So you think no one in the universe hates men? What a weird thing to believe. It would be nice if it were true but I don't think it is.

 

[Gorrath]

Ranted for a few paragraphs about why MRA is necessary and how modern feminism is still dropping the ball on men's rights but I can sum up that long ass rant like this: Acknowledging the issues isn't enough, especially when major feminist organizations actively campaign against legislation aimed at helping men have more rights when it comes to their offspring. Paying lip service to the issues just plain isn't good enough!

With that out of the way, no, misandry does not primarily come from men. Just like misogyny, it comes from culture and society that is built by both men and women. In many ways we have a poor view of both sexes driven by traditional views about what makes a man masculine and a woman feminine. Traditionalists, made up of both men and women, push to keep these views intact, citing (bad) utilitarian reasons or tradition for its own sake. Progressives, made up of both men and women fight against these views, citing the damage such views do to those who don't fit the molds society wants to put them in. I for one think the progressive notions are, on the whole, correct and that neither weak utilitarian arguments nor tradition for its own sake are good reasons to marginalize individuals. Unfortunately, many of my fellow progressives seem to view these issues in what I find to be a bizarre light, as if every slight against men in society is really just a slight against women when it's actually a slight against both! As some in this thread have pointed out, all of these issues affect both sexes negatively. It is only when we not only understand this to be true but also ACT in ways to rectify the situation for both sexes that we will reach anything approximating equality!

 

[Gorrath]

Deleted double post

 

[Erttheking]

What about misanthrophy where you consider yourself to be part of the problem too? Because that's the camp I fall into

Maybe it's because I have the wrong definition of misanthrophy, but I'm confused about what you mean by this. You dislike humankind because of dumb things humans do, but you also dislike yourself because you feel like you do the same things?

Yup, on the money. I feel like human beings do plenty of stupid things and I know that in my less rational moments I do the same stupid things. Though I wouldn't say I dislike myself. Disappointed in myself more like, just like I'm disappointed in the Human race.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What about misanthrophy where you consider yourself to be part of the problem too? Because that's the camp I fall into

Maybe it's because I have the wrong definition of misanthrophy, but I'm confused about what you mean by this. You dislike humankind because of dumb things humans do, but you also dislike yourself because you feel like you do the same things?

Yup, on the money. I feel like human beings do plenty of stupid things and I know that in my less rational moments I do the same stupid things.

Paradoxically, acknowledging that you are just like everyone else makes you different from loads of them.

 

[Jux]

For all the scaremongering about 'misandric' feminists, I think people are looking in the wrong direction. There is plenty of misandry out there, I just think most of it is coming from other men.

cap: without a doubt

I don't think there's more PUA then feminists and even if they were, I'd still be more concerned with misandric feminists. Most people don't take PUAs seriously, and they certainly don't have the clout feminists have. They're not a political movement so their opinions don't affect anyone aside from people they come into contact with.

Not to say that every man-hating tumblr feminist is worthy of concern though.

Well, first off I didn't say the pua community had more numbers than feminists, I said that I think more misandry comes out of that community than from feminism. Second, I think you're underestimating the larger impact of the ideas that these people push. There may be legislation being pushed based on feminist critique, but how much of that is misandric? On the other hand, the sort of evo psych BS about 'alpha/beta/omega' men seems like it played a pretty big part in what led Elliot Rogers to go on his murder spree. Of course that's a bit of a simplification, but had he not been inundated with that kind of message, or not had the entitlement issues that are also common to toxic masculinity, I think a very different outcome would have been likely.

 

[EvilRoy]

For all the scaremongering about 'misandric' feminists, I think people are looking in the wrong direction. There is plenty of misandry out there, I just think most of it is coming from other men.

cap: without a doubt

I don't think there's more PUA then feminists and even if they were, I'd still be more concerned with misandric feminists. Most people don't take PUAs seriously, and they certainly don't have the clout feminists have. They're not a political movement so their opinions don't affect anyone aside from people they come into contact with.

Not to say that every man-hating tumblr feminist is worthy of concern though.

Well, first off I didn't say the pua community had more numbers than feminists, I said that I think more misandry comes out of that community than from feminism. Second, I think you're underestimating the larger impact of the ideas that these people push. There may be legislation being pushed based on feminist critique, but how much of that is misandric? On the other hand, the sort of evo psych BS about 'alpha/beta/omega' men seems like it played a pretty big part in what led Elliot Rogers to go on his murder spree. Of course that's a bit of a simplification, but had he not been inundated with that kind of message, or not had the entitlement issues that are also common to toxic masculinity, I think a very different outcome would have been likely.

I haven't read anything that has suggested a concept like 'toxic masculinity' had anything to do with Elliot Rodgers. Typically people point toward the extreme narcissism in his manifesto, coupled with an inability to deal with any sort of rejection or disappointment due to his upbringing. He wasn't a misogynist - he was mentally ill. If anything he was a misanthrope as he considered everyone, male or female, to be lesser than him.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

It's true. PUAhate (hello, Elliot Rodger) and related communities hate their fellow man more than Tumblr's most rabid moonbats ever could. They hate the scammers in the PUA scene - there's no shortage of them - but they really hate the men who actually ask for help, then put the work in to improve themselves. Enjoy life as an 'incel,' as people can smell it (resentment) from a mile off.

Incels are a strange group from what I've seen. On one level I want to empathize with them, because I know how it felt to be awkward and feel rejected (though most of it was all in my head, a side effect of the depression), but despite the PUA rejection, they still buy into that alpha/beta/omega nonsense. It's like they've resigned themselves to being alone and hate women for the percieved rejection, and hate PUAs (or more broadly 'alpha males') because they 'get all the women'.

I don't think it's particularly 'strange' where the thought process comes from of wanting to buy into those ideas, because it provides a pretty clear explanation (though based on what could, at best, be called pseudoscience) for why your life is the way it is, and allows you to blame your lack of romantic success on psychology or society or evolution or whatever.

By using those as excuses, you're now no longer responsible for how things have turned out: you're now a victim of forces much greater than you. The simple fact is that being a victim is easy because it doesn't require you to try and change anything because, hey, when you're a victim, anyone suggesting the problem is you and something you need to change is just victim-blaming.

It's way easier to say "I'm a virgin because I'm not tall enough/not dominant enough/not alpha male material" than to try and figure out what you can do to stop it. And to push things even further, it's way, way easier to say "women only want to sleep with assholes, and I'm way too kind to behave like that, so I just have to accept that I'm never getting laid".

 

[Dizchu]

What about misanthrophy where you consider yourself to be part of the problem too? Because that's the camp I fall into

Hmm, I considered this but I feel as if that's a distinct thing, even if it's still "misanthropy", if that makes sense?

A hatred of human nature, perhaps? An awareness that humanity has extremely prominent flaws and that you are contributing to the problem just by existing. Because I share a view like that. As much as I hate pollution, the destruction of the environment, animal cruelty etc., I still contribute to those things simply by being part of a society that consumes products and uses services every day that in some way or another harmfully exploits natural resources.

Interesting.