MMOs stifle creativity yet turn profit, I think that sucks.

[zaro27]

Two worlds? Dude, that game isn't even a game. It's torture, wrapped up like an Oblivion clone. I think that WoW players will see TOR as a new and interesting experience, simply because it's Star Wars done by Bioware. Bioware has a good track record with Star Wars. APB is going to do well because of the umptillion crapton of customization crossed with the lack of subscription. Then again, I don't think APB counts as an MMO for much the same reason that CrimeCraft doesn't count. It's not really a persistent world, at least that's how it looks. I could be wrong though, and I really wanna be wrong.

 

[Silver Scribbler]

WoW Fanboy to the rescue! Not really, I have just as many problems with it as you do, probably more actually.

I disagree with you saying that WoW does little that hasn't been done before though. The phasing techniques that they introduced in WotLK were pretty new and interesting, a way of adding more personal involvement to MMORPGs, which is exactly what they need. When nothing you do has any discernible effect on the world you play in, it can feel pretty hollow. I do agree that they should do more though. The amount of money they are raking in, they can afford to give new/risky innovations and ideas a chance.

 

[Valate_v1legacy]

I played AoC, till my friends quit. It was a sad day for the Conqueror.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

That sounds like a great idea, lets say every game in a genre is the same as each other.

I think his point is not that every MMO is the same, he's saying that that unless they're the same then they don't generate profit so the genre isn't creatively moving forward.

I have to agree. Though I'm not an avid MMO player, my friend keeps trying to get me into MMOs and every one I play is basically "you are a guy with a sword or a staff, you click something, you hit it until it dies" I did however, enjoy City of Heroes slightly, because you got superpowers and shit. Not enough to pay a monthly fee mind you, but it was a bit less bland and generic. but apparently noone plays that anymore, now it's all Aion and WoW, and Aion will probably go out of style in the next month because they always do.

 

[zaro27]

WoW Fanboy to the rescue! Not really, I have just as many problems with it as you do, probably more actually.

I disagree with you saying that WoW does little that hasn't been done before though. The phasing techniques that they introduced in WotLK were pretty new and interesting, a way of adding more personal involvement to MMORPGs, which is exactly what they need. When nothing you do has any discernible effect on the world you play in, it can feel pretty hollow. I do agree that they should do more though. The amount of money they are raking in, they can afford to give new/risky innovations and ideas a chance.

Yeah, but your example is a fairly recent implementation. I have no idea what phasing is, but I'm willing to bet that it was one of the biggest gambles on Blizzard's part.

Also, Guitarmasterx7 hits it on the head: MMO's aren't moving forward creatively because creativity doesn't generate profits.

As for FPS's, Call of Duty 4 changed FPS's quite a bit. The addition of RPG-lite to the genre added depth in an otherwise shallow genre. COD4 isn't perfect, however. The inclusion of leveling up to unlock weapons and perks means that it's unfriendly to new players. Is there an easy way to fix this? Not really. If you remove the mechanic entirely, it just becomes worthless numbers. If you make it easier to level up, then it becomes harder to tell the newbies from the pros.

 

[Alex_P]

Think about it! MMO's are commonly hackneyed, samey, and boring! But do people still play WoW like it's going out of style? Yep. But Zaro27, what about the innovative gameplay of MMO's like WAR and Age of Conan?

Easy answer: People don't play them, therefore people don't want to play them. What does that tell you about the MMO industry? Again, easy: Change is not wanted in MMO's.

In time, you will realize that the entire video game industry is like this.

-- Alex

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Think about it! MMO's are commonly hackneyed, samey, and boring! But do people still play WoW like it's going out of style? Yep. But Zaro27, what about the innovative gameplay of MMO's like WAR and Age of Conan?

Easy answer: People don't play them, therefore people don't want to play them. What does that tell you about the MMO industry? Again, easy: Change is not wanted in MMO's.

Case in point: WoW. WoW does very little that hasn't been done before. It's basically Everquest with a pastel coating. Recently (Read: As people become tired of the same shit), Blizzard has put some new content to satisfy their hardcore fans. Is WoW the best Everquest that's ever been made? Yes! Is it still Everquest? Yes!

What about Aion? It's WoW with wings.

So, who here can change my mind?

While WoW may have not introduced much in the way of major features, the fact is that it radically changed the face of the MMORPG. It completely changed the pacing of the genre. It was easy to pick up and learn. It had tons of quests so that players rarely had to grind monsters to level.

Some of these things only seem standard now because a lot of games since WoW have copied them. WoW took a genre that was the definition of a niche, nerds-only enterprise and got 11 million subscribers into it. You don't do that just by adding a little polish here and there.

Oh, and as for AoC, sucking is not an innovation.

 

[timax]

On an almost, at this point in the conversation, unrelated side note. Star wars galaxy, pre patch, was very creative, intuitive and fun. Aka, it meets all of your requirements, including the conditional of (the past).

 

[Jupsto]

Think about it! MMO's are commonly hackneyed, samey, and boring! But do people still play WoW like it's going out of style? Yep. But Zaro27, what about the innovative gameplay of MMO's like WAR and Age of Conan?

Easy answer: People don't play them, therefore people don't want to play them. What does that tell you about the MMO industry? Again, easy: Change is not wanted in MMO's.

Case in point: WoW. WoW does very little that hasn't been done before. It's basically Everquest with a pastel coating. Recently (Read: As people become tired of the same shit), Blizzard has put some new content to satisfy their hardcore fans. Is WoW the best Everquest that's ever been made? Yes! Is it still Everquest? Yes!

What about Aion? It's WoW with wings.

So, who here can change my mind?

While I totally agree, I have to nit pick. inovative mmos WAR and AoC? I bought both games. WAR was a total WoW carbon copy with more focus on pvp. And age of conan whilst I loved the few months I played was hardly radically different from wow.

but yeah MMO industry sucks. but I blame the MMO community and player base as a whole. so many of them want auto attack, auto aim, etc.

anyway if anyone wants an indy, unpollished, hardcore but outstanding fun MMO check out darkfall. its not for everyone and its not perfect but theres nothing else even close to it. its got:

FPS combat
player cities
player ships
player houses
no classes
no levels
no instances or zones
one giant map/server with thousands of players
pvp everywhere, giant sieges/battles
full player looting

http://www.darkfallonline.com/index.html

 

[Seldon2639]

Ok, lets suppose all MMO's are the same, but then again aren't all FPS's the same, all driving games the same and so on?

That sounds like a great idea, lets say every game in a genre is the same as each other.

Why don't people stop hating on MMO's because they don't like them? I've stopped hating halo because its just stupid (My opinion on the topic, not the game)

This.

Yeah, but your example is a fairly recent implementation. I have no idea what phasing is, but I'm willing to bet that it was one of the biggest gambles on Blizzard's part.

Also, Guitarmasterx7 hits it on the head: MMO's aren't moving forward creatively because creativity doesn't generate profits.

As for FPS's, Call of Duty 4 changed FPS's quite a bit. The addition of RPG-lite to the genre added depth in an otherwise shallow genre. COD4 isn't perfect, however. The inclusion of leveling up to unlock weapons and perks means that it's unfriendly to new players. Is there an easy way to fix this? Not really. If you remove the mechanic entirely, it just becomes worthless numbers. If you make it easier to level up, then it becomes harder to tell the newbies from the pros.

Eh, it depends on what you're willing to define as "moving forward creatively". Different genres (and the players therein) have different criteria for what moving forward looks like. Gameplay innovation (what you tout as being the innovation of COD4) isn't the only way to accomplish it, it's just the most obvious way. Not for nothing, but FPSes really haven't changed much in the last decade, at least not in the ways you accuse MMOs of not improving.

Any online environment is going to have to limit the amount any individual player can alter the environment, but think about Halo (or COD4, or anything else):

Did Halo 3 introduce a system wherein the Spartans and elites battled it out on a daily basis for control of different planets? Was there a worldwide, constantly shifting, battle for the fate of the galaxy? No? Oh, they just spawned teams or individuals into a small battlefield, and let them kill each other?

Aside from very minor, cosmetic, changes (like "ranks" or "levels" in Halo or COD4), the online portion of an FPS is always the same concept. Same thing with the offline portion: you are a paragon of virtue, go kill bad guys.

Or we can talk about plot. Plot does make or break a game (in my opinion), but the plots are rarely too divergent from each other. Remember, there's a pretty limited supply of what stories can be told. The set pieces can change, and the names, but it's still the same basic storylines.

You complain that creativity doesn't make a profit "in MMOs", but that should be creativity doesn't make a profit "in video games". No one makes truly creative games anymore. You've got your sandbox "fuck with everything" games, your linear "epic plot/evil conspiracy andyou are the only one who knows the truth/can save the world" games, your Real-time build-up-armies-smash-enemies games, your "get a gun a shoot anything that doesn't look like you" games, ect. We can tout specific innovations ("well, see, the graphics in GOW are really good, and the chainsaw was nice... Oh, you mean it's just like a normal melee attack with more gore, oh"), but everything is derivative of something else.

I'm reminded of when Neil Gaiman was asked whether he thought that J.K Rowling was ripping off his book about a young man who, unbeknownst to him, is a wizard and goes to a secret academy for wizards. His response? "I thought we were both ripping off 'The Once and Future King'"

 

[Jupsto]

I played AoC, till my friends quit. It was a sad day for the Conqueror.

yeah same but I had 3 lvl 80s . thing is mmo's are mainly fun because of the people you play with.

PS: TOR is gona suck hard as an mmo. played as a co-op online kotor 3 it might be fun for a while.

 

[oppp7]

I agree. Plus, none of the MMOs I've played have had actual role-playing. You can choose a class and some abilities, but you're always going to be similar to every other character. Where are the MMOs with real characterization? When I think of role-playing I think of having a character with weird traits and gimmicks, that you stick to while playing. I know making a DnD similar video game would be hard, but has anyone even tried it?
Edit: People like MMOs for teamwork with friends and a feeling of accomplishment. But the gameplay of MMOs is broken as hell. Lets use Guild Wars as an example... PVE is mostly metagame grind, with a large portion of people using overpowered builds to farm high-end areas for large amounts of money that ruins the economy while the devs try to nerf the builds. PVP is mostly just going to PVX Wiki, finding a build, and then hoping (roll dice here...) that a build that is design to take yours down isn't on the other team. Also, the controls amount to clicking and pressing buttons when the skills are needed...

 

[RyQ_TMC]

I agree. Plus, none of the MMOs I've played have had actual role-playing. You can choose a class and some abilities, but you're always going to be similar to every other character. Where are the MMOs with real characterization? When I think of role-playing I think of having a character with weird traits and gimmicks, that you stick to while playing. I know making a DnD similar video game would be hard, but has anyone even tried it?

That wouldn't be just about MMOs, you can say the same about pretty much any PC/console RPG out there. It's actually getting worse now that you usually get a handful of highly polished archetypes instead of a happy pick'n'mix some old titles offered.

Back on topic: I think both sides of the argument hold some truth. For someone who doesn't play MMOs, they all look the same, but sorry zaro27, your "incredible super-duper innovation in CoD4" won't sell it to me, because for me, it's just the same as any other FPS... On the other hand, I guess MMOs do actually offer less wiggle-room for innovation than other genera, simply because of the investment involved. It's not about an evil cabal of fat capitalists who despise change, it's just nobody likes throwing bags of cash into a black hole in the hope that they'll earn more by selling whatever matter comes back from the parallel universe. I'm not much of an MMO fan (I only play WoW because it's a way to spend time with my RL friends who are far away), but from what I've seen so far, the only mainstream MMO which promised a significant change from the so-called usual was "Tabula Rasa", and I never got to try it, since it sank before they've reached the "free trial" stage.

I tried D&D Online and liked it, but it's a bit more of a co-op game than a classical MMO...

Of course, one day my idea for an innovative MMO will reach completion, and on that day, I WILL RULE THE WORLD!!!!... Sorry.

On the last note, if you do maths and calculate 30*12*11*10^6, Cwn_Annwn, you're not calculating profit... Profit is income minus cost, and an MMO the size of WoW must be costly to maintain... I'm not saying they don't make cash, it's just not the Scrooge McDuck level which would allow them to make a completely innovative game with 5 year development time and still be in the safe if it flops.

 

[Blindrooster]

And then The Old Republic was made and all was good.

 

[Flying-Emu]

I can. You're using an argument that's been around since the dawn of gaming.

Games have been "Samey" since the days of the Arcade. What was Metal Slug II (agreed to be one of the best games evar) but a toned-down Contra? What is Halo but a polished Goldeneye 64? What is Ratchet and Clank but Super Mario World with guns?

Dude, the gaming industry is stifling to creativity, not the MMO market.

 

[Flying-Emu]

And then The Old Republic was made and all was good.

Despite the fact that it's nothing but a fusion of Guild Wars and KotOR?

 

[zaro27]

Here's a thought I just had: What if games really are creative and we're just jaded to the point that it takes something so new/well implemented to blow our minds before we'll notice that anything has changed.

Does it really take something dramatic to get our attention? I remember when Halo came out and people suddenly said, "Oh hey, regenerating shields! That's a fucking great idea! It's so obvious!" Now, regenerating health has become old hat. I don't even really like Halo that much, but I'll say that regen health is a good addition to gaming. I doubt that Bungie was the first to do it though.

Side note: Can games be too creative? Indie games are amazingly creative, blending bizarre elements that normal people wouldn't even think of combining to make platform/puzzle/shooters that are a lot of fun. But sometimes, it's like indie developers are just too creative. Their new ways of thinking about gaming detract from games that would otherwise be entirely awesome. As a gamer who doesn't actively play the most innovative games he finds, am I assisting the industry in stifling creativity? When I go pick up Assassin's Creed 2, Borderlands, or Darksiders, am I encouraging creativity and envelope pushing among developers? Or am I asking for games with nothing but rehashed ideas?