Mojang and Bethesda Are Going to Court

RealDarkelfguy

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raankh said:
That's ridiculous. I guess the US doesn't require original artwork in trademarks? A generic font is ok? (Edit: apparently it is -- how that works is beyond me)

Based on that similarity, I'm wondering what the hell either of these companies where thinking submitting general claims like that. I can understand Bethesda wanting to court-troll some additional revenues, but Mojang? Are they planning to sue someone, with that kind of overreaching and obviously contentious trademark claim?
From what I understand, trademarks in the US can be a single word or phrase without the requirement of original artwork or logos. So the generic font probably just signals a trademark of the word/phrase in this case. It's rather interesting actually, the vast majority of the trademark searches I've done returns a fairly large number of trademarks in generic font with no original artwork attached. Must be a fairly common practice over here in the US.

As for the contents of Mojang's trademark (and the number of products/services it covers), I'm not sure if that was deliberate. Notch seems to be painfully ignorant of how trademark law works, even seeming a bit disdainful of the whole process, and I suspect this might have been the cause for his overreaching trademark claim.
 

Enslave_All_Elves

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I guess the only thing left to do is buy Skyrim used when the price drops... suck it Bethesda. I'll have my cake and eat it too. In my Minecraft lair. Yeeuh ya hurd me hater.
 

Anodos

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I guess that
LostintheWick said:
Dimitriov said:
RealDarkelfguy said:
*sigh* Here we go again. Another news story about the "Bethesda vs Mojang" trademark dispute, and suddenly people get all worked up with "Anti-Bethesda" hysteria and saying they have no case without even bothering to research trademark law or, heaven forbid, the actual trademarks related to this dispute. And once more, people seem to be blindly latching on to the concept that Notch and crew are somehow victims in this whole mess. Now there's a lot more to this whole issue than the rather narrow-minded view that "Notch is right, Bethesda is wrong and being bullies" that a lot of people seem to have adopted of late. Like everything else in this world, this trademark dispute is hardly so black and white. Let's examine the facts of the issue in detail before passing judgement on either party.

First of all, the way trademark law works is once you register a trademark, you have to defend it against any and all threats or risk losing it (and this has been mentioned several times now). This doesn't mean that one company gets to use that trademark exclusively though. Different companies can hold the same trademark (well, the same trademarked word at least) for different products. For example, you're probably familiar with Id Software's trademark on "Rage", but this trademark can co-exist with other "Rage" trademarks like the "Rage" trademark on motor-scooters and another "Rage" trademark on pesticides (fun fact: there's over 30 different trademarks on the word "Rage"). You see trademark disputes when a company owns a trademark and another company tries to register a similar trademark for the same product type (in this case it's computer games). That by itself isn't necessarily enough to pursue trademark infringement (unless you're Tim Langdell), you also have to establish a case for similarity. With "The Elder Scrolls" and "Scrolls" the similarities should be apparent to anyone who has actually looked up the two games. They're both fantasy themed and they both appear to have RPG-like elements to them. That right there is enough to establish trademark infringement for most legal courts, so Bethesda does have a fairly decent case. And again, as stated at the start of this paragraph, if Bethesda didn't take any legal action to this threat to their trademark, it could cause them to lose "The Elder Scrolls" later on.

*Please note that when I say that "Scrolls" and "The Elder Scrolls" have notable similarities, I'm talking about the kind of similarities that will determine the outcome of the case in court. Obviously "Scrolls" and "The Elder Scrolls" are two very different games and have few actual gameplay similarities. As gamers, we all know that, but we're talking about trademark similarities with a court of law, not a court of gamers. Tim Langdell got away with his whole "Edge" trademark trolling with far less, he didn't even have an argument for similarities other than they were games.*

Furthermore, it's important to consider that trademark disputes are not rare, in fact, they're fairly common. Although it must be admitted that most trademark disputes are not revealed to the public (or gather much media attention), much less announced on Twitter. Besides the Tim Langdell cases and this one, how many trademark disputes has anyone actually heard about? Not many, I'd gather. What is rather unique about this case is that it's actually going to court, as usually the two parties in a trademark dispute settle matters outside of the courtroom.

And, if you're still having doubts about the legitimacy of Bethesda's case, here's a quote from a legal expert interviewed by Wired.com last month.

" Attorney and game industry analyst Mark Methenitis told Wired.com that the publisher was just doing what any prudent trademark holder would normally do.

"The basic question here is whether the two trademarks are likely to be confused," Methenitis said in an e-mail. "There's a pretty well-established test for this under U.S. trademark law, and based on those factors, Bethesda has a reasonable argument." "

Source: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/08/minecraft-bethesda-lawsuit/

Finally, before you jump to take Notch's side in this issue, you should know the specifics of his "Scrolls" trademark. I took the liberty of looking it up on the Electronic Trademark Database and it's pretty surprising. It's not just a trademark on computer-games. Notch's trademark for the word "Scrolls" includes clothing (of all types, including t-shirts), hardware platforms, boardgames, toys, hand-helds, and traditional card games. This means that Bethesda's case against Mojang may not be the last court battle Notch will have to face over this, as his trademark clearly violates the trademarks of other companies (such as the Scrolls Clothing Company, which owns the trademark of "Scrolls" for t-shirts). The sheer broadness of Notch's "Scrolls" trademark is rather astounding, as most companies specify one thing for a trademark and make additional trademark registrations for additional products (for example, Bethesda has 6 separate trademarks on "The Elder Scrolls", covering everything from clothing to their forums, but each trademark covers only one thing). I imagine this is usually done in order to avoid large-scale trademark infringements.

Furthermore, just because you make a game doesn't mean you have to register a trademark for it! The vast majority of indie games DO NOT have trademarks! It's not a legal requirement in the slightest, and Notch could keep the name of his game as "Scrolls" if he dropped the trademark. Heck, I imagine there wouldn't be much of a legal issue if he had trademarked a full title like "Scrolls: The Card Game" or anything a little more complicated than just "Scrolls".

If you're interested in doing a bit of research on this subject, I encourage you to look up the trademarks that are involved. You can find Notch's trademark (and pretty much every other trademark ever registered) at this website: http://tess2.uspto.gov/
Good info here, thanks for posting this :D

I only hope some of the more knee-jerk people will take the time to read it...
I went from: "Whoa Bethesda! What's going on dudes?! Why???"
To: "Oooohhh... I wonder how this will turn out."

I love both companies enough to not pick sides. Folks should read this post for perspective.

Although my nature gets a thrill out of DISOBEYING SUCH AUTHORITY OF EXPERTS, i do have some logical questions.

Is not the trademark "Elder Scrolls" and simply that? I do believe ive seen people trademark individual words before, but this does not seem to be the case. Are people not allowed to use ELDER for a game title, as well? Isnt a "scrolls" a well known fantasy game trope? If they named their game "elder swords" does that mean that no game is allowed to name itself "sword" Can "Golden Axe" sue me if I use the word "axe"? Can dungeons and dragons sue....well, ALL GAMES?

I think i have a game named DRAGON, somewhere....
 

BlackWidower

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Nov 16, 2009
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Charli said:
BlackWidower said:
Blizzard should also sue Mojang because Warcraft sounds remarkably similar to Minecraft.
See funnily enough I actually HEARD someone confuse these two.

No one calls the Elder scrolls game by 'ElderScrolls: , they call it by the .

It's a joke. I don't play Mojang's games. I'm not a fan, but I know enough to see when one company is being a dick. And it really is that cut and dry. And how could you have turned down a publicity stunt like a resolution via Quake Deathmatch? I mean seriously. Are drugged monkeys head of their legal department?
No, they're just not affiliated with marketing, and want to actually do something.
 

MacGuges

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A sneaky idea just occurred to me. Most reactions I've seen to this news have followed Notch's reaction to the lawsuit, that this event is just "lawyers being lawyers", castigating Bethesda for being tone-deaf to the public reaction. But someone pointed out that this lawsuit decision didn't come from Bethesda, the game studio, but from ZeniMax, the parent company. ZeniMax is a commercial enterprise that has acquired several game studios, including id Software, Arkane Studios, MachineGames, Tango Gameworks & Vir2L Studios, besides Bethesda. Mojang is a game studio. What if this lawsuit is ZeniMax's idea of a stick, and an acquisition deal is their idea of a carrot?
 

Alphakirby

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May 22, 2009
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Dear Bethesda: After this is over,Push Zenimax off of a goddamn cliff for being morons.

Remember kids,Bethesda isn't to blame here,Zenimax was just having a hissy fit because one word in IT'S best selling franchise is in a completely different game in genre and asthetics.
 

Lokithrsourcerer

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Nov 24, 2008
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XT inc said:
I hope Mojang Wins, not because they made minecraft, but Because I think Bethesda are being complete morons and in their own way Insulting consumers intellegence.

Game is callsed Scrolls, Those dumb customers might think its our game and it isn't we better spend a ton on legal fees to sort this out.

The Ironic thing is most people I know, know of the elder scrolls games, and Can Identify them, but they call the game by its subtitle. It isnt The Elderscrolls 3,4 and five it is Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

Im also excited for scrolls because Apparently Jerry holkins of Penny arcade wrote for it.
yeah i know about 30 ppl who have played the elder scrolls games and not a one of them new what i was talking about when i asked then how they liked elder scrolls 3 etc
 

JediMB

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Oct 25, 2008
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Alphakirby said:
Dear Bethesda: After this is over,Push Zenimax off of a goddamn cliff for being morons.

Remember kids,Bethesda isn't to blame here,Zenimax was just having a hissy fit because one word in IT'S best selling franchise is in a completely different game in genre and asthetics.
Err... ZeniMax Media is basically Bethesda Softworks.

Or rather, it is a shell created for the company so that it could encompass more than the original game studio did. It was founded by Bethesda's founder.
 

PeePantz

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Sep 23, 2010
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thethingthatlurks said:
I'm curious, has anybody ever called the TES games by their full name (eg The Elder Schrolls: Morrowind) over their respective subtitles?
Actually, my friends and I just call each games Scrolls. Not even Elder Scrolls, just Scrolls. Oddly enough, it creates a lot of confusion when you call a game by one damn word. We also refer to each installment of Lord of the Rings as "Rings" and we also call every book of the book series A Song of Ice and Fire, "of".
 

Miggiwoo

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Aug 7, 2011
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In Australia we have a clause that makes it illegal to copyright anything that could be interpreted as 'generic descriptive'. There was a case not long ago where an American company tried to sue an Australian company for using the word Ugg Boots, which the American company held copyright for. The term scrolls is surely generic descriptive Mojang, take em to court in Australia!
 

Harry Mason

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Mar 7, 2011
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I know what Mojang is really thinking about this whole ordeal...

"Free publicity! FREE PUBLICITY! LOOK AT ALL THE FREE PUBLICITY I'M ROLLING IN! WHEE!"
 

jpoon

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Mar 26, 2009
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Damn, what pricks Bethesda are. My god I hope the lose this one, go Mojang!
 

Trivea

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Jan 27, 2011
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I think I broke something headdesking that hard.

Really, Bethesda? Really? Are you going to sue every game that has the word 'scrolls' as an item in it, too? Because I really think D&D beat you to that one, guys.
 

Rayansaki

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I'm a huge fan of bethesda games and quite dislike minecraft and Mojang's way of doing things, but this lawsuit is pretty stupid, and there's no way bethesda would win such a ridiculous case on a swedish court.
 

The Virgo

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Jul 21, 2011
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You know, I love Bethesda, but this is really stupid. They should have gone with Notch's idea of a duel. That was fair AND in good fun. Bethesda, from a neutral point of view, does not really have any grounds for this. I mean, I've looked at the "Scrolls" logo. Looks absolutely nothing like "The Elder Scrolls", which doesn't even HAVE a scroll!