I'd normally take you on your offer - arguing like that is always enjoyable, but I'd start on a premise that is fundamentally wrong. For now, I'll lurk and watch your argument unfold. Perhaps on another thread we will meet again.Jachwe said:
Moral in videogames
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Well atleast its entertainingDirty Hipsters said:
I justify it in most cases as self defense, whereas the person i just killed attacked me first, therefore i am not accountable for his death.
In the cases where i attack first, im usually put in a situation with very limited options, doing it for self preservation, or for the greater good of a 'faction'
I also know the difference of killing someone in a fictional world, where actions have a very limited (if any) effect in the real world.
I also don't even believe im killing "people" because they are fictional characters in a fictional world.
Ok guys. I am no christian I am no poilitician with an agenda. I also do play violent videogames. There is no bias on my part. Because there is no bias on my part I am able to see the problem of your "telling the difference of reality and a viodeogame" which is the bias on your part.kman123 said:
As I said. You think it is intuitive. There are fundemantal flaws in a intuitive morality. You think it intuitive that actions in a game have no maoral value but the same actions in reality have such value attributed to them. I do not think you can explain it that easily because at the most basic level through transcendence of such meaningless conceptualizations of our consciousness demanded by our thinking these actions do not differ from one another because their ccontent is the same and thus must have the same value.
Intuitive morality is not to be used as a theory of ehtics because intuition is vague and not universaly the same from person to person. Not even the same of one and the same person from time to time. You cannot base your moral on such a feeble basis and expect anyone to agree with your reasoning. What you need to do is having a strong basis from which you can argue from. Intuition is not such a basis and thus your perception of the difference of reality and game is flawed.
Getting biblical eep i kill because it's fun simple and some ai are annoying why not kill fake things, instead of going on real life rampages like some crazies.Jachwe said:
No offense but perhaps if you spent a little time on the forums and checked out some of the other threads before making such a blatantly provocative one people wouldn't be so quick to jump to this insinuation.Jachwe said:I am no troll. You are offending me by saying that. So I just reported you.... Like someone reported me for calling someone stupidhazabaza1 said:Also low content post which does not contribute to topic.
If I was going by christian morality I would say that video games are inherently good as they are a way of keeping leviathan or 'the beast within' in check. Every human being has violence in their nature, a video game is a way to ease those urges without hurting anyone (and yes scientifically and spiritually a basic ai is not a person). Violent crime has decreased since video games were invented and although this could be unrelated it is an interesting correlation. The average person does not feel real anger or hate when playing a video game (although 'nerd rage' frustration is common). It's a positive experience and does not carry that 'sin'.
Past philosophers and historians have argued that there will always be war becuase it is the nature of man. I would say wouldn't it be better to channel those urges into a game of COD instead?
You reasoning is false. You take it as a given that videogames do channel violent urges and that no such urges arise from videogames. You dismiss frustration and anger arising of videogames as "nerdrage" but this is not true. You get engaged and agitated while playing a videogame. This agitation can take form in rage and anger. Nerdrage is nothing but pure rage. You are fooling yourself into thinking they are different so you do not have to face the uncomfortable truth that a videogame makes you feel frustration and anger while playing some aggressive scenario in your game.xXxJessicaxXx said:No offense but perhaps if you spent a little time on the forums and checked out some of the other threads before making such a blatantly provocative one people wouldn't be so quick to jump to this insinuation.Jachwe said:I am no troll. You are offending me by saying that. So I just reported you.... Like someone reported me for calling someone stupidhazabaza1 said:
If I was going by christian morality I would say that video games are inherently good as they are a way of keeping leviathan or 'the beast within' in check. Every human being has violence in their nature, a video game is a way to ease those urges without hurting anyone (and yes scientifically and spiritually a basic ai is not a person). Violent crime has decreased since video games were invented and although this could be unrelated it is an interesting correlation. The average person does not feel real anger or hate when playing a video game (although 'nerd rage' frustration is common). It's a positive experience and does not carry that 'sin'.
Past philosophers and historians have argued that there will always be war becuase it is the nature of man. I would say wouldn't it be better to channel those urges into a game of COD instead?
i think games accept that the world in which you are imersed is absolute so saying your not killing something is saying games are a world without consequence.within the game world killing is context sensitive, in HaloCE you kill to defend because you were attacked but if you attack a marine they open fire on you so within that context it was imoral. If someonone attacks me within that context i would defend myself tenacsioucly and its moral. the reason we kill in games is often as simple as the one in reality because we are being attacked. very rare is the game that is primarily offensive and is regarded as good.
Aye - I shall start feeling real fucking bad for every pawn I lose in a game of chess from now on.
I kill, because it's what I'm supposed to do. In games, of course. Not in real life. That would be wrooooooooooong.
I kill, because it's what I'm supposed to do. In games, of course. Not in real life. That would be wrooooooooooong.
Dammit people, I come into this thread expecting a debate into the moral choices and "grey area" storytelling in gameplay and instead I am presented with a debate on whether or not killing binary code is morally acceptable by society, and all the while the guy who mostly touch the deep issue that morals are defined by the context in which they are presented is the same guy who bring up Mass Effect 2.
I live in a strange age.
Also, I suppose I should be the one to state the obvious and say that if you want a study into morality and death in videogames go play Planescape: Torment.
I live in a strange age.
Also, I suppose I should be the one to state the obvious and say that if you want a study into morality and death in videogames go play Planescape: Torment.
You are nitpicking. Someone can feel frustration at a video game but it is not 'real' anger. Afterwards most, if not all, people will recognise that they were being ridiculous and throw there hands up in recognition of that.Jachwe said:You reasoning is false. You take it as a given that videogames do channel violent urges and that no such urges arise from videogames. You dismiss frustration and anger arising of videogames as "nerdrage" but this is not true. You get engaged and agitated while playing a videogame. This agitation can take form in rage and anger. Nerdrage is nothing but pure rage. You are fooling yourself into thinking they are different so you do not have to face the uncomfortable truth that a videogame makes you feel frustration and anger while playing some aggressive scenario in your game.xXxJessicaxXx said:No offense but perhaps if you spent a little time on the forums and checked out some of the other threads before making such a blatantly provocative one people wouldn't be so quick to jump to this insinuation.Jachwe said:I am no troll. You are offending me by saying that. So I just reported you.... Like someone reported me for calling someone stupidhazabaza1 said:
If I was going by christian morality I would say that video games are inherently good as they are a way of keeping leviathan or 'the beast within' in check. Every human being has violence in their nature, a video game is a way to ease those urges without hurting anyone (and yes scientifically and spiritually a basic ai is not a person). Violent crime has decreased since video games were invented and although this could be unrelated it is an interesting correlation. The average person does not feel real anger or hate when playing a video game (although 'nerd rage' frustration is common). It's a positive experience and does not carry that 'sin'.
Past philosophers and historians have argued that there will always be war becuase it is the nature of man. I would say wouldn't it be better to channel those urges into a game of COD instead?
Video games dispel these bad urges and so are beneficial. A wise man recognises he is a fool yes, but I could also say that you are fooling yourself into thinking that there is some dark immorality about video games. It's subjective opinion, although it's interesting you try so hard to see the negative and not the positive isn't it.
I'm back.
This "Personality" is defined by the coding within a game, and does not disappear from the game even if the model carrying out the actions dictated by the code vanishes from the map. As I said, NPCs can brought back as many times as desired, and they will go through the same motions over and over without memory of their so called "death".
I await your answer.
But isn't stealing "wrong", according to morality? And what if you stealing that medicine results in the death of a patient that had the money to buy it but couldn't since you took the last dose?Jachwe said:
Then we really can't discuss morality, seeing as I don't agree to that concept. "Good" and "Evil" are just terms, there are no absolutes in this universe, except perhaps death, and maybe not even that, depending on your personal beliefs.Jachwe said:
That's splitting hairs. Fine, I don't acknowledge them as living beings, is that better?Jachwe said:
What I refer to as "Personality" are the actions and behavior pattern of the NPC, which, now that I think of it, are pretty much one and the same.Jachwe said:
This "Personality" is defined by the coding within a game, and does not disappear from the game even if the model carrying out the actions dictated by the code vanishes from the map. As I said, NPCs can brought back as many times as desired, and they will go through the same motions over and over without memory of their so called "death".
I await your answer.
@Jachwe
Keep up the good work.
OT: Morality in games is irrelevant, it can only possibly matter if it affects a character the player cares about. If there's nobody to judge you, it becomes a matter of "which of these choices benefits me the most".
OT: Morality in games is irrelevant, it can only possibly matter if it affects a character the player cares about. If there's nobody to judge you, it becomes a matter of "which of these choices benefits me the most".
It is real anger. Either you deal with it or you are illusioning yourself. Yes maybe most people will afterwards recognise they were angry about a game but that does not change that they were angry... because of a game. Unless you want to say the cause-effect law is wrong you cannot proof me wrong. Someone is playing a game and getting angry because of it. You cannot say "Oh no, he is angry but not "real angry" because his anger arises from a videogame" because I could argue like that in many ways. "Oh he is angry because he got punched in the face/ was screwed over/ was insulted but that is not "real angry" because it arises from a punch/ a fraud/ being hurt." Well I think we agree these are reasons we get angry about. I can also say by the same logic "He is angry about not doing well in sports/ his ice cream having dropped" Imagine someone get angry about those. You would think someone getting enraged for having his ice cream dropped and start shouting would be stupid. Also he would never have to consider anger managment because it is not real anger. Anger is anger. You can call it nerdrage as long as you recognize that it is still real anger. I mentioned sports before and it being a possible source for frustration... like videogames. If we look closly at the gaming culture we find that a small part, the so called "serious gamers" are very serious about gaming. They get frustrated for not doing well in their game. They are the ones who do electronic sports. They get fucking pissed for losing a game if they feel they should not have for whatever reasons.xXxJessicaxXx said:
You cannot say I am fooling myself into thinking that there is some dark immorality in it because I never said that. I am also not trying to see the negative but the flaws. The flaws you are trying to advocate. If you want to step up for gaming and be serious about it you must be reasonable. That is using reason. Saying anger is not anger is illogical and thus not reasonable. Unless you provide a system encompassing the sources of anger and an ontological theory that it is based on ecplaining why one anger that is felt is real and the other is not you are not convincing anyone reasonable.
If you do not want to be reasonable you must not try to discuss such topics.
1. A game is not real life, so you can cause x amount of damage, death, and destruction with no consequence. And any action can be redone, over and over again. It's not anything real, it's a simulation if you will.
2. It helps you blow off steam, the real world is a drag with millions of limitations, a game can eradicate those limitations easily.
3. Thou shall not kill isn't a rule I truly believe in, I think it's a nice idea, but ultimately flawed. I also find it funny that it's a Christian commandant, yet god has killed over 2,000,000 people in the bible, and Crusaders, inquisitors, and general holy people have killed far more.
Death is necessary. Some people deserve death, some people need death, it's the natural ending of life.
4. Killing without consequence is fun. Exploring different methods of unreal killing is fun. Humanity has laughed at people getting hurt for millions of years, it's one of the things that tickle our funny bones. If a computer simulation 'dies' in a funny way, say falling from a great high and his peen landing on a metal bar, i'm bound to feel amused. Watching characters ragdolize and smashing against walls is fun. And if you don't find killing in games fun... Go read a book.
2. It helps you blow off steam, the real world is a drag with millions of limitations, a game can eradicate those limitations easily.
3. Thou shall not kill isn't a rule I truly believe in, I think it's a nice idea, but ultimately flawed. I also find it funny that it's a Christian commandant, yet god has killed over 2,000,000 people in the bible, and Crusaders, inquisitors, and general holy people have killed far more.
Death is necessary. Some people deserve death, some people need death, it's the natural ending of life.
4. Killing without consequence is fun. Exploring different methods of unreal killing is fun. Humanity has laughed at people getting hurt for millions of years, it's one of the things that tickle our funny bones. If a computer simulation 'dies' in a funny way, say falling from a great high and his peen landing on a metal bar, i'm bound to feel amused. Watching characters ragdolize and smashing against walls is fun. And if you don't find killing in games fun... Go read a book.
I'm not saying 'anger isn't anger' I'm saying it's somthing completely different.'Real' rage is not the same emotion as what you feel when Alma from Ninja Gaiden kills you for the 40th time. There is a difference between rage and frustration.Jachwe said:
The feeling of killing someone isn't the same as shooting a cell operative in Crysis. Ask any soldier. If you know any.
Okay, now I've read through this, and as you say that you are not troll, politician nor fanatical religious, and that you do not have an agenda against violent games, and that you play these games yourself.
The I would like to ask you: what is your own justification?
Why do you do this "killing"?
What makes you break the "standard moral code"?
Cause before I give you my opinion I'd like to hear if you have a valid opinion yourself.
If you don't have that, there is no discussion to be had and everything you've said through this entire thread would be pretty much void.
Until then, have fun.
The I would like to ask you: what is your own justification?
Why do you do this "killing"?
What makes you break the "standard moral code"?
Cause before I give you my opinion I'd like to hear if you have a valid opinion yourself.
If you don't have that, there is no discussion to be had and everything you've said through this entire thread would be pretty much void.
Until then, have fun.
Well, "thou shall not kill" was never intended to be an absolute rule. Some argue that it should translate as prohibiting murder, ie, unlawful killing, During the Crusades, Christian leaders claimed a misquote, and it only prohibited killing christians.Jachwe said:
In any case, shortly after receiving the commandmets, Moses supposedly had masses of people killed over the whole golden calf thing.
...
However, I do take your point. Most games will give you reasons for legitimising the killing. The enemy is unquestionably "evil", or you are acting in self defence, for example.
I generally find it distasteful to play "evilly", at least in games in which the world is set up so you can imagine the characters as people. Admittedly, yes, they aren't real people, but the attraction of playing games is the emotional connections you form. Monsters jumping out at you can't really hurt you, but Jesuschristwhatthefuckwasthat!!! Likewise, there's no reason why you shouldn't left click when the cursor is hovering over the head of a character designated "innocent child", but you have to, at some level, want to kill a kid to do it.
Ever heard the expression there's no such thing as a stupid question? Thanks for providing me something I point out when I want to debate that point.Jachwe said: