MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

[BloatedGuppy]

Although I agree with Bob that Bioware shouldn't have buckled to the fans.

What would the alternative have been? Watch a statistically significant portion of the fan base walk out the door on the company? That would've been quite the Pyrrhic victory.

Besides which, by fixing something that is obviously and objectively broken, I'm not sure they can be seen as "buckling" so much as "doing the sensible fucking thing".

 

[Falcon123]

I agree that players are a key part of that art. They are instrumental in bringing that art to fruition. But sadly, this does not make us the artist.

I think it would be interesting for developers to work with players to make a game...but not in this context. Not when either the consumers or developers are being metaphorically held at gunpoint by the other side. At this point, any movement towards a collaborative effort will appear as if they are caving into demand and sacrificing their artistry (and the effect on the industry will be the same) even if it's not true.

I agree, friend, that the ending is shit. It's horrible. If you read my article ( http://www.redshirtcrew.com/2012/03/why-mass-effect-3-has-changed-industry.html ) you know I understand where you're coming from, and you have my deepest sympathies. But this is the wrong way to come about it. Don't support this practice by giving them your money, thus telling them that what they've done is okay. Sell your game, don't buy the DLC, and make Bioware earn your trust back. All of that is fair. Maybe they'll learn their lesson that way and who knows, maybe they will start a collaborative effort with a gaming community that changes the way games are made. But if you buy the ending DLC, you're supporting this mess, they won't learn the lesson, and all the outside world will see is that Bioware didn't stand up for their product. The ramifications of that will shape the industry as we know it, and I don't think it will be for the better.

Make you the artist? Of course it doesn't. It makes you less than a passive consumer, though. It creates a situation where it's significantly more NATURAL for you to want a voice in the creative process.

As for Bioware learning their lesson...the only reason a dialogue exists with them regarding this nonsense is because they're taking a hammering. Releasing DLC for a profit at this point wouldn't be any kind of canny sales coup, nor an indication that they'll be hot in the pants to repeat this spectacle. At the end of the day, though, I don't really have a powerful motivation to teach Bioware lessons. I just want them to deliver me a quality product, for which I will give them money. I could just stop buying from them altogether, or I can offer them an opportunity to fix the stupid mess they made, which, as it happens, shouldn't really be that hard to do, as its contained in such a tiny portion of the game. I certainly don't think other developers are watching this, stroking their chins, and thinking "Geez, how can WE fuck up OUR games and get 90% of the fan base hating us so we can sell additional DLC?". Wouldn't it just make more sense to write such a good ending that everyone is ENTHUSED, and buy your DLC because they're HAPPY with your product? That seems like a better business plan.

Every consumer has the right to make the choice to spend their money as they wish, so go for it. But don't be surprised if they do it again with their next big series. There's no reason for them to worry about quality, because they know you'll pay them to give you what you already deserved. If that's cool for you, more power to you, but for me personally, that's not ok

 

[370999]

Although I agree with Bob that Bioware shouldn't have buckled to the fans.

What would the alternative have been? Watch a statistically significant portion of the fan base walk out the door on the company? That would've been quite the Pyrrhic victory.

Besides which, by fixing something that is obviously and objectively broken, I'm not sure they can be seen as "buckling" so much as "doing the sensible fucking thing".

do we even know if they are changing it? I thought the most that had happened was that Bioware admitted that people weren't happy with the ending and that DLC would come some time in the future.

 

[Falcon123]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

This right here is my problem. There was never an artistic vision at play. Typically, someone basing art on, and tying art to the works of another, or even their own previous work, will have the respect for the material not to openly make it null and void or to simply conflict with it out right. But the fact that they're pulling some sort of "It's art!" card as a cheap transparent defense does nobody any good. It cheapens the worth of ACTUAL art when they use it to cover their asses.

So you don't believe video games are art? I ask because I've spent a 30 page research thesis defending games as art, so that aspect matters to me. Either way, you're paying them more money to give you what you deserved all along. If you don't believe games are art, you can at least admit the business practice is shady at best, no?

 

[wintercoat]

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.


True Story

I...I love you. Will you have my man babies?

 

[Falcon123]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

"We" are not telling them HOW to rewrite the ending, but "we" we are asking that they SHOULD rewrite the ending that is more in-lines with the themes of the series. A ending that that makes sense and delivers on the promise that the choices we've made in the previous game have more of difference other then some characters showing up for 30 second cameo's on how Shepard made a difference at giving them a final shot of survival.

They can still keep their "artistic integrity" by creating a new ending, we are just calling them out on the fact they did not deliver on their originally stated "artistic" promise.

Also layer on the fact that somebody playing the MP can get a better ending (which there isn't really even one), then somebody who attempts to play the single player to the integrity of their character.

The ending of ME3 does not matter on your any of player choices in any of the previous games. BioWare failed on both their own "artistic integrity" of the medium they developed and failed on the "product integrity" in regarding to most of the promises they didn't keep.

I mean, if you order a steak sandwich from Gordon Ramsay, and he goes out and gets you a McD's hamburger, are you going to accept that?

Note that your argument was made within the service industry concerning products. That's a fine arc to take, but just be aware that you're dismissing the entire notion of them forfeiting their artistic integrity (maybe you don't think video games are art. I do, so that matters to me, but I'll move on for the sake of discussion)

Read the statement they released. They're asking people what they want. They're not rewriting the ending because they don't like it. They're writing the ending because they want to maximize their bottom line. That's how products work, not pieces of art. That was my problem. There's no integrity to be found in abandoning the piece of art (their claim) one created in order to appeal to the masses. That's consumerism, not art, and that's my problem with this whole controversy.

Abandoning art entirely, can we at least agree this is a shady way to do business? I mean, they're selling you the ending you rightfully deserve, and somehow people are okay with this? I don't understand why anyone would support that logic with their hard earned money

 

[Falcon123]

See my response to the quote above you. Vote with your wallet. Boycott if you want. But you don't have the right to tell them how to do their jobs any more than they have the right to tell you the same.

People have the right to complain about the quality of a product. As long as games cost money and EA/Bioware refers to the users as "customers," games are a product and an art form.

It kinda boggles me that people are all up in arms using the "Games are art" flag to defend this but they weren't using it to defend, say, Duke Nukem Forever or Fallout New Vegas for being buggy and broken. Does the programming of a game not fall into the "artistic" domain? Is Big Rigs garbage cause it was poorly made or because the creators were trying to make some abstract artistic point? Where is the line between artistic integrity and quality production lie?

My argument is based on giving benefit of the doubt to Bioware that their ending was not based on some sort of technical failure, but on a failed attempt to deliver the message they wished to deliver. Buggy games are one thing; bugs can be fixed through skill and ability alone. Delivering an ending and a captivating story is where the art, at least to me, lies, and just because they failed doesn't mean they should start over, and it definitely doesn't mean they have the right to charge us for the privilege.

 

[boag]

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.


True Story

I...I love you. Will you have my man babies?

Have you ever read a webcomic named oglaf?

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

"We" are not telling them HOW to rewrite the ending, but "we" we are asking that they SHOULD rewrite the ending that is more in-lines with the themes of the series. A ending that that makes sense and delivers on the promise that the choices we've made in the previous game have more of difference other then some characters showing up for 30 second cameo's on how Shepard made a difference at giving them a final shot of survival.

They can still keep their "artistic integrity" by creating a new ending, we are just calling them out on the fact they did not deliver on their originally stated "artistic" promise.

Also layer on the fact that somebody playing the MP can get a better ending (which there isn't really even one), then somebody who attempts to play the single player to the integrity of their character.

The ending of ME3 does not matter on your any of player choices in any of the previous games. BioWare failed on both their own "artistic integrity" of the medium they developed and failed on the "product integrity" in regarding to most of the promises they didn't keep.

I mean, if you order a steak sandwich from Gordon Ramsay, and he goes out and gets you a McD's hamburger, are you going to accept that?

Note that your argument was made within the service industry concerning products. That's a fine arc to take, but just be aware that you're dismissing the entire notion of them forfeiting their artistic integrity (maybe you don't think video games are art. I do, so that matters to me, but I'll move on for the sake of discussion)

Read the statement they released. They're asking people what they want. They're not rewriting the ending because they don't like it. They're writing the ending because they want to maximize their bottom line. That's how products work, not pieces of art. That was my problem. There's no integrity to be found in abandoning the piece of art (their claim) one created in order to appeal to the masses. That's consumerism, not art, and that's my problem with this whole controversy.

Abandoning art entirely, can we at least agree this is a shady way to do business? I mean, they're selling you the ending you rightfully deserve, and somehow people are okay with this? I don't understand why anyone would support that logic with their hard earned money

Ive states this before, and someone pointed it out again in another thread

What about the artistic integrity of the other writers?

The ones that got fucked over by Hudson and Walters?

What about their right to their artistic views?

Why aren't people crying "Rape" to Walters and Hudson for fucking over the Vision of Karpyshyn?

 

[Jesse Billingsley]

I didn't play any of these games, but I watched the endings anyway and to tell you the truth, they were good endings. Mind you I would have completely dropped the whole 'Shepard's alive' thing, but in the image where the Normandy has crashed on some unknown planet in the middle of know where, offers a new beginning for those characters.

It is shameful that the fan base reacted as they did. They should have respected the designers decisions, but no.....

 

[boag]

I didn't play any of these games

So you didnt invest 90+ hours into making choices in the game, being promised everytime that "your choices matter", so pray tell what gives you the right to judge those that are disappointed in the ending? What makes you an objective party?

 

[Ticonderoga117]

*snip*

While I can't speak for everyone of course, I can say that I myself am not demanding a change. I really, REALLY, hope they do, but sadly, at the end of the day I'm not the head-honcho making decisions. However, is just saying "To hell with it" at the end of the day the best course of action? Personally, I don't think so, at least not here.

To keep this short, putting Bioware in the spot light for this disregard of their own promises and standards is much more effective than just shipping the game off. At least, in my opinion it is.

I didn't play any of these games, but I watched the endings anyway and to tell you the truth, they were good endings. Mind you I would have completely dropped the whole 'Shepard's alive' thing, but in the image where the Normandy has crashed on some unknown planet in the middle of know where, offers a new beginning for those characters.

It is shameful that the fan base reacted as they did. They should have respected the designers decisions, but no.....

So wait, you're passing judgement on people who have played the entire series, delved into it's depths, and complain about them just because you've made a decision on material that took 5-10 minuets to watch?

Am I missing something?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

do we even know if they are changing it? I thought the most that had happened was that Bioware admitted that people weren't happy with the ending and that DLC would come some time in the future.

It appears evident they intend to do SOMETHING. As I've said elsewhere, that SOMETHING will almost certainly be elaboration and expansion on what we already have, and possibly some smoothing over of the more blatant continuity errors, which would upgrade it from objectively terrible to subjectively poor. At which point, the ART defense actually starts being valid.

Read the statement they released. They're asking people what they want. They're not rewriting the ending because they don't like it. They're writing the ending because they want to maximize their bottom line. That's how products work, not pieces of art. That was my problem. There's no integrity to be found in abandoning the piece of art (their claim) one created in order to appeal to the masses. That's consumerism, not art, and that's my problem with this whole controversy.

This was always, always, always about their bottom line. The company exists to make a profit, not to make "art". And I disagree that they're abandoning the "art" part of the equation by addressing what they have, because what they have is so terrible. If someone was talking about, say, changing the ending of "Dude Where's My Car", the number of shits given and the level of controversy generated regarding the integrity of art would combine to amount to exactly zero. Just because the motivation for making a change was financially motivated, does not mean the change was not also warranted for equally valid artistic reasons. The most likely outcome of this scenario is that the Art gets IMPROVED.

 

[Falcon123]

*snip*

While I can't speak for everyone of course, I can say that I myself am not demanding a change. I really, REALLY, hope they do, but sadly, at the end of the day I'm not the head-honcho making decisions. However, is just saying "To hell with it" at the end of the day the best course of action? Personally, I don't think so, at least not here.

To keep this short, putting Bioware in the spot light for this disregard of their own promises and standards is much more effective than just shipping the game off. At least, in my opinion it is.

In the short term, you may be right. It sets a dangerous precedent though, especially given Bioware's prominence. That's what scares me, really. If Bioware is able to come out of all of this with massive DLC sales despite failing to deliver on their promises until they wrangled even more money out of us, I'll feel worse as a gamer as a whole, and there will be nothing stopping other companies from following in their footsteps

 

[Candidus]

> "Subjective dissatisfaction with narrative content is not really a compelling reason for a change to that content."

Objective plot holes.

> "Subjective"

That word is your first and biggest mistake. Our complaints about the ending aren't subjective at all. Do a little research and you'll see why.

Let me put it this way. People are having a laugh at Hard Reset for making a joke of their ending that also comments on this controversy.

It's ironic though, that their parody of the controversy is no more ridiculous than the ACTUAL ENDING OF ME3. It's certainly not worse in terms of plot holes, or continuity failures. They're basically identical, other than the fact that Hard Reset's troll ending is honest about being a troll ending.

My point is that this isn't about artistic integrity at all. The standard of writing is beneath even "functional". Never mind artistic. [[SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS]]. Crew members magically beaming aboard the Normandy, the Normandy inexplicably using the relay network when it blows- rather than being above earth with the rest of the Victory Fleet...

Those aren't "artistic directions", those are "mistakes". There's a difference. And the endings as is are basically comprised of 'mistakes'.

If someone sells you a game without talking about the ending, and without making promises about the ending that might become the basis for a purchase, it's no problem. Otherwise, it is a problem. I either want a fix or I want my cash back. Luckily, Amazon is willing to oblige.

Your ball, Bob.

 

[Falcon123]

Read the statement they released. They're asking people what they want. They're not rewriting the ending because they don't like it. They're writing the ending because they want to maximize their bottom line. That's how products work, not pieces of art. That was my problem. There's no integrity to be found in abandoning the piece of art (their claim) one created in order to appeal to the masses. That's consumerism, not art, and that's my problem with this whole controversy.

This was always, always, always about their bottom line. The company exists to make a profit, not to make "art". And I disagree that they're abandoning the "art" part of the equation by addressing what they have, because what they have is so terrible. If someone was talking about, say, changing the ending of "Dude Where's My Car", the number of shits given and the level of controversy generated regarding the integrity of art would combine to amount to exactly zero. Just because the motivation for making a change was financially motivated, does not mean the change was not also warranted for equally valid artistic reasons. The most likely outcome of this scenario is that the Art gets IMPROVED.

As a gamer that really cares about the integrity of video games as an art form, that saddens me. But let me make this clear: you're right in that if it wasn't Bioware and it wasn't ME3, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But it is. This is one of the most popular franchises of all time in gaming run by one of the three most influential developers in the industry. Everything they say and do influences the rest of the industry whether they want to or not, and the long term effect is that all the developers watching this will learn that as long as they follow through on their promises with DLC (which gets even more money out of the consumer than simply doing their job the first time around), they can get away with something like this. And since video games are hardly firmly established as an art form, this doesn't help any of us who really do care about its place in the artistic world

 

[Jesse Billingsley]

I didn't play any of these games

So you didnt invest 90+ hours into making choices in the game, being promised everytime that "your choices matter", so pray tell what gives you the right to judge those that are disappointed in the ending? What makes you an objective party?

The games never looked appealing to me, but aren't I allowed to have a say in all of this? Say what you will, but to an outsider, I find this outcry over these ending childish. Everyone at Bioware, invested what, TWO years of their lives staying up for days on end making a game that they believed would be appealing to their fanbase. What have you done?

The Man in charge even said he was a little upset with everyone's reactions, and he has my sympathies.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As a gamer that really cares about the integrity of video games as an art form, that saddens me. But let me make this clear: you're right in that if it wasn't Bioware and it wasn't ME3, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But it is. This is one of the most popular franchises of all time in gaming run by one of the three most influential developers in the industry. Everything they say and do influences the rest of the industry whether they want to or not, and the long term effect is that all the developers watching this will learn that as long as they follow through on their promises with DLC (which gets even more money out of the consumer than simply doing their job the first time around), they can get away with something like this. And since video games are hardly firmly established as an art form, this doesn't help any of us who really do care about its place in the artistic world

I would argue that Bethesda is every bit as big a mover and shaker in the RPG world as Bioware, and they already did this exact same thing with Fallout 3, and the earthshaking ramifications of that decision amounted to absolutely nothing at all. There was a problem, and they fixed the problem, and everyone said "Yay" and went on about their business. For whatever reason, THIS problem got caught up in the shit storm of social media, so every talking head has decided to wade in with their opinions, and suddenly everyone thinks they're fighting the last battle for the integrity of art in video gaming when the precedent for this already came and went without anyone noticing or caring.

You don't need to worry about video games suddenly ceasing to be art. They can't stop being art any more than a banana can stop being fruit. And some of that art will be banal and juvenile, and some of that art will be profound and extraordinary, much as the case is with art everywhere. What happens with this one game, in this one incidence, is not going to set the course for generations. They fucked up their ending. The only thing that stands to get changed forever from all this nonsense is that very same fucked up ending. And it NEEDS CHANGING.

 

[wgmovies]

Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

realy bob the mass effect crybabies did not set the medium back they did show the world that gamers can have an emotional connection witb a game or product (kinda like the star wars fanboys do with their movies)

 

[boag]

I didn't play any of these games

So you didnt invest 90+ hours into making choices in the game, being promised everytime that "your choices matter", so pray tell what gives you the right to judge those that are disappointed in the ending? What makes you an objective party?

The games never looked appealing to me, but aren't I allowed to have a say in all of this?

You didnt invest time or money into it, keep this in mind to my following point

Say what you will, but to an outsider, I find this outcry over these ending childish. Everyone at Bioware, invested what, TWO years of their lives staying up for days on end making a game that they believed would be appealing to their fanbase. What have you done?

I invested my time and my money on their product, how can you criticize the fans that spent money and time on the game, and then turn around and say they have no say because the developers invested time and work into the game?

Can you see the hypocrisy in your statement?


The Man in charge even said he was a little upset with everyone's reactions, and he has my sympathies.

The man in charge should be upset, the reaction wasnt to make him happy, the reaction was to show how much people are displeased that the money and time they invested into the product they gave turned into a joke in the last 10 minutes.

Also understant, aside from the end, most of the people love the game and have had nothing but praise for it, does that not count in the eyes of the producer?

Does it not count in saying, we loved everything about it, but this last part completely invalidates anything we stried together to achieve and we feel you cooped out on the ending.

Add to that they want us to keep purchasing their product and just as the game ends, they tell us "Buy more DLC", how can you even begin to understand how some of us feel about it if you didnt experience anything but the ending to it?