Musical Ignorance

[Nouw]

The amount of ignorance in this thread if disgusting. You can like whatever you want but I'll be damned if you think what I listen to isn't 'music.'

Exactly. Not only that, but according to the definition of music from my music theory teacher, rap isn't music at all. In the sense that it's more like a poem with some kind of beat in the background. Except without the "poem" part, and just words as far as I've heard. Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I have to say I agree with him. Someone wants to change my mind, show me a rap song that actually brings any sort of emotion to the table.

And that's the tip of the ice-berg. By the way, the song is Trip-Hop but I brought it up anyway since you said 'rap.' If you're serious about finding a deep rap song, look up Tupac. Note that obviously your emotions differ from mine and many others however he is a well-loved rapper for good reasons.

Because it's a universal fact that Brokencyde sucks.

You actually believe that it's a fact that Brokencyde sucks? Well that gives me a wonderful indication that of your stance on music and subjectivity.

 

[Yopaz]

With few exceptions I like music from all genres, but I don't like all genres. I hate techno as a genre because I find it lazy. There's the techno remix of You're Out of Touch where one line is repeated over and over. If I hate the majority of music from a genre I figure I hate the genre. If someone found an awesome techno song I would still hate the genre because I hate the 99% remaining. When it comes to rap I love Tupac, and a few songs from Twista and some other songs. As a genre I don't like rap because most of it doesn't appeal to me one bit. It's not ignorant to dislike a genre if you simply dislike all you've heard from it. Opinions are based on experience not knowledge. Do you claim that someone who hasn't experienced the same thing you have to be ignorant? I judge things from what I have experienced, and change it as I experience new things.
If the first rap song I heard was by Lil Wayne I would say I hated rap. If the second rap song was I Ain't Mad Atcha by Tupac I would say rap sounds pretty decent at times.
Also you forget to account for taste, which makes you ignorant. Some people dislike certain kinds of music because it's not their style.

 

[Cowabungaa]

It had to be done, admit it.

I hadn't heard that before. If only it stayed that way...*breaks into tears* I'm sorry I...I think I need some Miles Davis or Horace Silver to calm my nerves.

 

[PleaseDele]

snipped

Edit. For example I wouldn't call this music but I really like it.


ou could also play a little game of name that game during the video.

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't call it music. Is it because most of it is programmed on a computer? These days a lot of producers work with midi keyboards to play in the notes, meaning they are consciously playing the lines rather then just programming. Also, to create that product you need to understand rhythm (like syncopes), various synthesizing techniques and harmonic content to make it all work.

I'm not attacking you, just giving me side of the story, but I'm still curious as to why you wouldn't call it music.

On topic:

I disregard genres as a whole just so I have more time to find things that I like in genre that produce enough shift of their own. With the over saturation going on in the world today it's hard enough as it is. If somebody gives me a track to listen to I'll give it a chance though, but often enough I find songwriting poorly executed.

 

[infohippie]

It's a bit different for rap, because it's frickin' everywhere. You can't escape it. It's used as backing music for a hell of a lot of crap on TV, it's pretty much every second song on the radio, and it's horrible. Execs all through every aspect of the entertainment biz have said to themselves "this is what the kids like these days" and so they put it into everything to try and ride it's popularity. I absolutely loathe rap, I think 99.9999% of it is complete and utter shit and the tiny fraction that might not be is still only just tolerable, at best. I wouldn't be so vehemently against an entire genre of music like that except for the fact that, as I said, you can't escape it without cutting yourself off from popular culture almost entirely.

 

[Grey Walker]

I will stop saying 'I don't like rap' when I hear rap I like.

I hear what you're saying. But I don't think I throw the words hate around that much.

Exactly. Not only that, but according to the definition of music from my music theory teacher, rap isn't music at all. In the sense that it's more like a poem with some kind of beat in the background. Except without the "poem" part, and just words as far as I've heard. Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I have to say I agree with him. Someone wants to change my mind, show me a rap song that actually brings any sort of emotion to the table.

I unfortunately can't remember the name of the song, but there's one song that tells the following story:

Boy meets girl. They fall in love. Boy wants to go further with girl. She leaves him in tears. Confused, boy acts irrationally and ends up in prison. When he gets out he finds out that the girl he was with had AIDS and died from it while he was incarcerated but she left him a farewell letter telling him how much he'd meant to her.

I'm not even a fan of rap and I thought that was touching.

 

[Hristo Tzonkov]

Well you can't deny that the various ammounts of -core genres are actually crappy despite having a few good bands.And funnily those same bands lean more on other genres instead of their -core genre.This includes gammacore and hard techno but it still appeals to candy ravers and it's pretty obscure not a lot in your face.

That's still ruling out a heck of a lot of genres. Breakcore, dubcore, terrorcore, they're all just as valid as any other genre.

I like Breakcore but it's often mixed other genres.The rest I haven't heard all that much to rule out.But it's generally a rule of the thumb that -cores are some kind of scenes.Aka by deffinition bad.

 

[SystemUpdate]

I think if you're going to try and explore rap/hip-hop, The Roots are a good band to start with.

They are excellent musicians and incorporate many influences from other genres. They may be easier on the ears than some harsh underground rappers spitting about political injutice and oppression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS88jxG1CJo

 

[omega 616]

snipped

Edit. For example I wouldn't call this music but I really like it.


ou could also play a little game of name that game during the video.

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't call it music. Is it because most of it is programmed on a computer? These days a lot of producers work with midi keyboards to play in the notes, meaning they are consciously playing the lines rather then just programming. Also, to create that product you need to understand rhythm (like syncopes), various synthesizing techniques and harmonic content to make it all work.

I'm not attacking you, just giving me side of the story, but I'm still curious as to why you wouldn't call it music.

That is more complicated than most of what I am referring to but pop songs or things like it is just loud in your face bass with a simple tune over the top, so it's so simple to make. Hell there was a game on the PSX called music which you could make music like that.

You don't need a sense of rhythm, you just need to evenly space the block of beat, as it was on the game.

Were as if you got a typical band (drummer, two guitars and a singer) the drummer sets the BPM and the rest keep to it (so far as I understand how bands work) but pop music is jut press play on the ipod that rigged up to the 100 massive speakers.

There are no creative improv sections in a pop song in regards to the music, on the other hand if Iron maiden wanted to throw in a 30 second solo they could, it also allows mistakes to happen and shows how good the band is if they don't.

I see art as something that takes skill to do, I think the Mona Lisa is art 'cos I cannot do something close to that, I think good writers and film directors are artists 'cos they build the feeling they want, I think bands like slipknot are artists 'cos it takes skill to play instruments but any idiot can sit down and throw a pop song together (just the music) in about an hour.

Heres lady Gaga's latest song, skip to anywhere mid song and all you can hear is overpowering bass and a simple tune over the top.


It's the same constantly through the song, maybe with the odd bit of silence were it is just vocals but if you go to any intrument playing band (that I have heard anyway) they always, bar maybe one, song are always changing the music in the song.

Such as hatebreed, all there songs are never constant except "destroy everything", which is the same all the way through (to my memory).

Anyway, I am rambling now.

 

[PleaseDele]

snip

Though I must admit the music from pop music often basic songwriting, it is still properly executed. And yes, for a skilled musician, laying down those basics for a track can indeed be done within the hour. However I have seen idiots working with similar tools that produce something horrific.

Without a feel for dynamics, flow, rhythm or harmonics (may I point out lady gaga does sing in harmony with herself in some parts of this song) the song you produce might still be shit. Even if the tool is so simple.

I agree on the iPod over a thousand speakers remark though. Often enough I hear electronic music made by these "idiots" with great tools. I've heard rhythms being off, chords not working, hell even some basslines conflict with a SINGLE lead line. But when you start saying you stop considering well, albeit it easily, written songs music is a shame.

Especially considering the "skill" argument you present. Even though you claim the tools used for this kind of music are so easy to use, using them creatively can still get you some crazy effects. Understanding all the different virtual synthesizer still takes skill. But most of all, songwriting is harder then it sounds. It's a skill not just any idiot possesses. As said above, I've heard some simple backing tracks that we're just awful.

It appear's you've got me rambling aswell. I'll stop for now.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Though I must admit the music from pop music often basic songwriting, it is still properly executed. And yes, for a skilled musician, laying down those basics for a track can indeed be done within the hour. However I have seen idiots working with similar tools that produce something horrific.

Without a feel for dynamics, flow, rhythm or harmonics (may I point out lady gaga does sing in harmony with herself in some parts of this song) the song you produce might still be shit. Even if the tool is so simple.

I agree on the iPod over a thousand speakers remark though. Often enough I hear electronic music made by these "idiots" with great tools. I've heard rhythms being off, chords not working, hell even some basslines conflict with a SINGLE lead line. But when you start saying you stop considering well, albeit it easily, written songs music is a shame.

Especially considering the "skill" argument you present. Even though you claim the tools used for this kind of music are so easy to use, using them creatively can still get you some crazy effects. Understanding all the different virtual synthesizer still takes skill. But most of all, songwriting is harder then it sounds. It's a skill not just any idiot possesses. As said above, I've heard some simple backing tracks that we're just awful.

It appear's you've got me rambling aswell. I'll stop for now.

I am not talking about song writting, that does take skill, even the shittest songs are better than I could write.

I am just simply talking about the music that supports the vocals. It's so bland, boring and repetitive and like you said they can still get it wrong.

I am no expert on music or how to create it but I do know that bands such slipknot to nickelback have more skill in them than any pop song will ever have.

I have just been listening to some of the worst named bands ever and if they took out the awful vocals I think it would be amazing pieces of music, (I am talking about dying fetus and such bands) there like wines that have been left in barrels for decades to improve there flavour, then you have pop music which like the cheapest cider ever made.

Thats how I see it anyway. Like I said though, it's not that I don't like it, it's just I can't class it as music ... I don't think theres a word for it.

 

[PleaseDele]

I am not talking about song writting, that does take skill, even the shittest songs are better than I could write.

I am just simply talking about the music that supports the vocals. It's so bland, boring and repetitive and like you said they can still get it wrong.

I am no expert on music or how to create it but I do know that bands such slipknot to nickelback have more skill in them than any pop song will ever have.

I have just been listening to some of the worst named bands ever and if they took out the awful vocals I think it would be amazing pieces of music, (I am talking about dying fetus and such bands) there like wines that have been left in barrels for decades to improve there flavour, then you have pop music which like the cheapest cider ever made.

Thats how I see it anyway. Like I said though, it's not that I don't like it, it's just I can't class it as music ... I don't think theres a word for it.

I like how you put Nickelback in a positive light. I don't see that around on the internet a lot.

Anyway I think I understand your point of view. I think your definition of music is making adjectives obsolete. As far as I can tell things you would classify as BAD MUSIC are simply not music, because it is ruined by one or more aspects of a song.

You claim not to be an expert in music but you still say you simply can't call something music. It strikes me as odd, but to be fair I once had the same attitude. It's that I'm currently involved with making music, which greatly helped develop my taste. So I reckon it's just a lack of involvement in the end.

No harm done I reckon

 

[Polarity27]

10,000 rappers out there. Each one gets the most hoes, pops the most caps, drives the most expensive car, and is just generally the baddest n***** who ever walked. When you get right down to it there is only one rap song and the guys singing it don't qualify for the position they claim. The real baddest n*****s who ever walked are too busy being the baddest n*****s who ever walked to bother rapping about it. The fictional nature of the lyrics wouldn't be a problem if the fools singing it didn't take themselves so seriously.

And this is different from '80s hair metal how, exactly? I grew up hearing band after band be all about getting chicks and dope and partying hard. With fast cars. And really bad hair. Really, every generation has this, the only thing that changes is the form it takes.

I love this thread, though! I like rap and I've gotten a ton of good rap recs out of this post, a few of which I'd never heard before.

It's all so subjective, though. I consider myself pretty musically eclectic, but I just can't abide metal. That Megadeth video linked on page two was physically painful to try to listen to, all I hear is screeching guitars and RAAAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!! I'm sure to an aficionado there are a million wonderful variations, but it all sounds the same to me. Ditto for whatever you call alternative, emo hipster music (example: Coldplay, The Fray). Jangly guitars and warbly voices, also godawful on the ear.

I think everyone has something like this, genres you'll defend to the death and genres that just make your ears bleed. I don't think there's an objective standard for subjective taste.

 

[omega 616]

I like how you put Nickelback in a positive light. I don't see that around on the internet a lot.

Anyway I think I understand your point of view. I think your definition of music is making adjectives obsolete. As far as I can tell things you would classify as BAD MUSIC are simply not music, because it is ruined by one or more aspects of a song.

You claim not to be an expert in music but you still say you simply can't call something music. It strikes me as odd, but to be fair I once had the same attitude. It's that I'm currently involved with making music, which greatly helped develop my taste. So I reckon it's just a lack of involvement in the end.

No harm done I reckon

I don't mind nickelback, got some nice songs and are quite close in sound to one of my unknown fav. bands.

Thats a more articulate way of explaining it than my ham fisted attempt.

I know just about every person will disagree with me not calling it music but it's just what conclusion I have come to. It is like music in the same way a sphere is like a wheel, they can both be used as a in the same way but there not the same.

 

[omega 616]

10,000 rappers out there. Each one gets the most hoes, pops the most caps, drives the most expensive car, and is just generally the baddest n***** who ever walked. When you get right down to it there is only one rap song and the guys singing it don't qualify for the position they claim. The real baddest n*****s who ever walked are too busy being the baddest n*****s who ever walked to bother rapping about it. The fictional nature of the lyrics wouldn't be a problem if the fools singing it didn't take themselves so seriously.

And this is different from '80s hair metal how, exactly? I grew up hearing band after band be all about getting chicks and dope and partying hard. With fast cars. And really bad hair. Really, every generation has this, the only thing that changes is the form it takes.

I love this thread, though! I like rap and I've gotten a ton of good rap recs out of this post, a few of which I'd never heard before.

It's all so subjective, though. I consider myself pretty musically eclectic, but I just can't abide metal. That Megadeth video linked on page two was physically painful to try to listen to, all I hear is screeching guitars and RAAAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!! I'm sure to an aficionado there are a million wonderful variations, but it all sounds the same to me. Ditto for whatever you call alternative, emo hipster music (example: Coldplay, The Fray). Jangly guitars and warbly voices, also godawful on the ear.

I think everyone has something like this, genres you'll defend to the death and genres that just make your ears bleed. I don't think there's an objective standard for subjective taste.

So what do you think of this, wait for the rapping ...

 

[-KC-]

Xhoyl
Exactly. Not only that, but according to the definition of music from my music theory teacher, rap isn't music at all. In the sense that it's more like a poem with some kind of beat in the background. Except without the "poem" part, and just words as far as I've heard. Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I have to say I agree with him. Someone wants to change my mind, show me a rap song that actually brings any sort of emotion to the table.

I lol'ed IRL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNcloTmvTeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q6c3n_ZQ5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W69SSLfRJho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYNFfgrXTI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ9_TKayu9s&feature=relmfu

So please next time before posting lame opinions at least try to back it up with arguments.

Johnnyallstar
It's very rare when disco, electronica, pop, hip hop, or rap really appeal to me.

At least learn that rap is part of Hip Hop culture, Hip Hop isn't music genre it's a culture. Rap is music genre.

 

[omega 616]

shinoda is the man!
(hense the several fort minor songs i posted previously to stand up for rap xD

I haven't seen every page of this thread.

So you like this even though it has some what of a metal edge to it, what about all early linkin park songs? The ones that have an aggresive side to them, like "hit the floor"?

 

[Weslebear]

I listen to what I like, regardless of who else likes it, what people think of me listening to it or what it may or may not say about me. It's just what I like to hear and nothing will change that.

I also deny genres as anything of importance, they are nothing but a classification with which to help music be organised, to allow people to scour through the millions of songs with ease and in fact are no different to a filing system, not something to judge the music on but just the easiest way to arrange music together. I don't believe in genres as defining the music within them at all, I define each band, hell each song, as a separate entity that are incomparable but are each to be enjoyed for the merits they specifically bring to the table, not what they have up against other songs.

Music is about freedom, enjoy it.

 

[TerribleAssassin]

I don't think people judge it on the genre, it depends on the generally quality of the track.

Which is why I like quite a lot music. And why I love Pendulum.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Just as a heads up, I'm sure this doesn't apply to a majority of the Escapist users as us lot seem to be an intelligent and open-minded bunch. It's just an observation I've had on the way many people regard music.

Oh of course, because intelligent and open minded people aren't allowed to dislike things?

I'm sick of people jumping to massive conclusions and disregarding entire genres of music simply because they're heard a few songs they dislike or it is disliked by the media.

Well you will have to learn to live with the disappointment. Why you believe you know best how people's tastes should be smacks of arrogance. Every person has their own tastes in what they like and dislike, be it food, clothes, music, art or sports.

I don't like avocado, I never have and know I never will. Why should I have to like it just because you do? I don't begrudge you liking it or stop you eating it but it's not to my taste so I don't eat it. Similarly I can't stand death metal. I never have, I never will so why should I listen to it? Because you said so? I like trance music and have friends who can't stand it, doesn't bother me in the least. They're tastes are not mine. Why should anyone waste time on listening to music they don't enjoy when they can listen to music that they do?

Music like rap and pop often gets bad-mouthed for no good reasons; yes, there is a tonne of bad rap and pop, just like there is a tonne of bad metal and jazz and electronia.

"...for no good reason". "There is a tonne of bad rap and pop". That seems to me to be a perfectly good and quite valid reason.

It's not like I have a problem with people not liking a certain type of music

Oh no, the fact that you posted this clearly shows you have no trouble here.

If someone hears music they don't like then why on Earth should they have to listen to more of it? Because you think it's unfair of them not to? Here's the deal. People have different tastes to yours. Many people in the world will think the way you dress is silly, they won't like what you play on your iPod and will want to see a different movie at the cinema from you. You equally have a right to think they dress bizzarely, listen to weird music and disregard food you find delicious. But you have no right to tell them they're wrong and need to listen to what you like, dress as you do or watch what you want.
Sorry for the rant.