Musical Ignorance

Unesh52

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macacos2 said:
Real music is made by composers who actually spend years of their lives studying music itself at an Academy and mastering the instruments required to reproduce the sound of perfection...


"What? Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
 

klaynexas3

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i'll say a genre is crap, but that's because i tend to make my own genre's. for instance, i find that all pop songs are dull unimaginative lyrics with the same quality music, and a catching chorus. if it has some imagination to it in any way, i don't qualify it as pop. reason why i decided to call the genre with unimaginative music in it is cause most of what normal people call pop fits into this category. i'm going to sound like a flamer, but if music really just adds nothing to the musical process, there's no point to it. at all. mind numbing entertainment is fine once in a while, but we shouldn't base the majority of what our music industry is going to promote. that tends to piss me off. i usually feel like "it's music, it's all about taste man" towards music, but i've grown to get pissed off at mindless music or sellouts. i view music as a way of expression, but the thing is, most music that is popular today is equivalent to friday. i'm not even joking, when i first heard it i just thought it was another crappy song that hannah montana wrote or someone like that. it pisses me off that if this is what's happening to music that the world is going to be filled with morons.
 

funguy2121

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SystemUpdate said:
(1)Just as a heads up, I'm sure this doesn't apply to a majority of the Escapist users as us lot seem to be an intelligent and open-minded bunch. It's just an observation I've had on the way many people regard music.

(2)I'm sick of people jumping to massive conclusions and disregarding entire genres of music simply because they're heard a few songs they dislike or (3)it is disliked by the media. (4)Music like rap and pop often gets bad-mouthed for no good reasons; yes, there is a tonne of bad rap and pop, just like there is a tonne of bad metal and jazz and electronia. It's not like I have a problem with people not liking a certain type of music - but you should still have respect for the genre and artist (unless they really are a piece of talentless crap - Brokencyde, for instance).

I don't listen or really like Lady Gaga, but she has a good voice and well-written/well-produced pop songs, even if her pompous diva persona grates on me. She's not on my iPod, just like Metallica aren't and neither is Tinie Tempah - but I do respect them because I understand they are musically gifted and please their intended audience. Just because I don't like their music doesn't mean I think they're 'bad'.

(5) Heck, even Justin Bieber takes too much flak. He sings bland and uninteresting pop, yes, but is it harming you? Or even the music industry in general? No.

So, please stop writing off types of music just because of its media image or certain bad artists.
Sorry for the rant.
I'm confused and require clarity. Sorry, bad English. I am confused, and I require clarity. I'll just do this by the numbers with my reactions and questions.

(1) I'm glad you took the time to humbly present your opinions as just that and nothing more - I'd like to see more of this on The Escapist.

(2) Hell, yeah - wait, did you say "pop?" Are we talking Apples in Stereo/Rilo Kiley pop or are we talking Rebecca Black/Usher pop?

(3) There is not a style of music "disliked" by the media.

(4) Let's brake this down separately by genre, because I have observed quite a few reasons to badmouth both. Pop, by which I mean Lady Gaga and her-her-her-her-her poker face and Justin Bieber, has done a tremendous amount of work inviting scorn. GaGa's music might not be as wholly unoriginal as Britney Spears, but it still doesn't sound terribly inspired to me. It sounds just like all of the other post-techno club-light diva stuff out there. It actually is unique for commercial pop in the lyrics category. She likes to sing about her bisexuality, and not always in a self-objectifying "hey boys, look at me kissing a girl!" way. Good for her. That's really about the only positive thing I can say about her. She dresses up in crazy extreme outfits. So does Karen O of the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, so does Bjork, and so did Kiss. Hell, G.G. Allen used to end his sets covered in blood and feces. But none of the above artists (well, except for Kiss) made derivative, simulacric music the way that GaGa does, so I have to say I'm not impressed by the meat dress and the blood outfit and the 10-feet-tall shoulder pads, because the music doesn't back it up. Bieber is much, much worse. There's really no need to go into his music because you already know what I'm going to say about that uninspired, prefab mess. Instead, let's talk about his marketing of sexuality to underaged girls. Unlike his intellectual/artistic forebearers NSync, Bieber actually is underaged himself. But, just like them, and like The New Kids on the Block and all prefab boy-band crap that markets sexuality to children, it's utter crap. Hell, it's crap by design. The music (or what passes for music) is secondary, it's just another component. It's actually less important than all of those retarded feigned looks he gives to the camera before doing some akward face twitch that's supposed to be sexy. This phenomenon and all of its practitioners have earned our scorn, and I for one don't feel the slightest bit bad about giving it to them. I do love Quasi, though.

Rap - or rather, what passes for commercial hip-hop today, isn't any more interesting than Bieber. None of the big-name rappers topping the charts are actual gangsters, like (fewer than would admit) their 90's counterparts were. At least Kanye's crazy ass admits he's a college dropout and not a former crack dealer. Precious few of the rappers actually rap. What Li'l Wayne does, I can do, which is the perfect litmus test for is this rapping/singing? Answer: no. Quite a few of these "artists" have to slow down their voices in order to sound tough, which is particularly laughable considering that the entire point of the song, other than of course how many toilets they have, is how tough/rich/much of a pimp they are. Rap lyrics are like the boasting of a 12-year-old school boy; I don't believe that one of these dumbfucks has the first clue how to please a woman. And what's really so sad about this is that hip-hop has continued to grow as a genre, thanks to MC's like Mos Def, The Roots (Jimmy Fallon-what the fuck?) and Dead Prez. Too bad none of them play on the radio, since they don't sing about being a hard nigga and fuckin' up a ***** when she don't bring home the dough. See, the greatest perpetrators of black stereotypes are sorry excuses for a black man such as Li'l Wayne.

(5) It's harming popular music.

Most people don't have much in the way of tastes; they watch whatever sitcoms or reality shows are popular and they listen to whatever comes on the top 40 stations where they live. Top 40 music is bland, corporate and often outright terrible, I'd say 95% and 85% of the time respectively. You shouldn't expect such "normal" people to understand your tastes, not because you're inherently better than them in any way, but because commodified shit doesn't appeal to you. It doesn't appeal to me, either.

Go team Venture!
 

Hyper-space

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Stilkon said:
2) Justin Bieber is not harming the music industry financially, but he's harming its integrity (which in this day and age is pretty hard to do).
How the fuck is he harming the integrity of the industry? you know hes not the first young male singer who looks like a girl to reach these levels of stardom, right? hell i remember seeing a picture of some really famous (back then) singer that looked exactly like Justin Beiber.

Popular music has for the most part been terrible since forever, its just that most of it falls into the forgotten music section so the only music you hear from back in the days is the really, really good ones.
 

Lionsfan

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Jan 29, 2010
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Xhoyl said:
I don't dismiss it because of what the media says, I dismiss it because I've actually listened to it. Mostly involuntarily, but I have, and I have yet to find one I can connect to emotionally. Now, I am nothing if not open minded, so I will listen to the songs the posters said are the exception, and judge for myself. But even if any of those particular songs are good, it still says something of rap goers with how often a car drives by me with crap pounding my ears into submission.
But what does it say about Heavy Metal Listener's when I'm trying to go for a run and they drive by me, blaring something I can't hear myself think and screaming incomprehensible stuff?

Basically, just because a genre has exceptions (as tends to be the case) doesn't mean I'm gonna get into that particular genre and wade through the crap to find the good stuff.
So what you're saying is that 90% of all music is crap? Or are you just talking about the Hip-Hop genre? I'm actually curious about this, I'm not trying to start a flamewar over your specific tastes

In all honestly, I stick with what I listen to because percentage wise, I know I'm going to find a song I like more often than not.
But don't you ever just want to venture out and try some new stuff?

omega 616 said:
Stilkon said:
2) Justin Bieber is not harming the music industry financially, but he's harming its integrity (which in this day and age is pretty hard to do).
I don't know about that, pop music has turned into throw away razers. You go on X factor or some place has talent (which is usually a joke) and watch as 3 people get record contracts (even though it should only be one) after releasing 5 or so songs maybe the odd album they get forgotton about just in time for the next X factor or some place has talent.

Then bands like take that claim to be breaking up for good, only to join up again once there vast riches dry up.

I think Mitch Benn says it best ....

I completely agree here.

On topic. I think some "music" isn't music 'cos it's not made by musical instruments but it is something like music. I am not saying it's bad or anthing, I like lady Gaga and Eminem but I wouldn't say it's music.
But by that logic then Choir singing isn't music. Cause if the voice is an instrument then so everyone is using an instrument.

Music doesn't have to be using guitars/drumbs/brass intruments. Music is technically an art form whose medium is sound. If
this is considered art then I think Eminem/Lady Gaga/anyone who doesn't necessarily use an intrument is considered music.


funguy2121 said:
Rap - or rather, what passes for commercial hip-hop today, isn't any more interesting than Bieber. None of the big-name rappers topping the charts are actual gangsters, like (fewer than would admit) their 90's counterparts were. At least Kanye's crazy ass admits he's a college dropout and not a former crack dealer. Precious few of the rappers actually rap. What Li'l Wayne does, I can do, which is the perfect litmus test for is this rapping/singing? Answer: no. Quite a few of these "artists" have to slow down their voices in order to sound tough, which is particularly laughable considering that the entire point of the song, other than of course how many toilets they have, is how tough/rich/much of a pimp they are. Rap lyrics are like the boasting of a 12-year-old school boy; I don't believe that one of these dumbfucks has the first clue how to please a woman. And what's really so sad about this is that hip-hop has continued to grow as a genre, thanks to MC's like Mos Def, The Roots (Jimmy Fallon-what the fuck?) and Dead Prez. Too bad none of them play on the radio, since they don't sing about being a hard nigga and fuckin' up a ***** when she don't bring home the dough. See, the greatest perpetrators of black stereotypes are sorry excuses for a black man such as Li'l Wayne.
Quite a bit of this is kinda wrong

Rap - or rather, what passes for commercial hip-hop today, isn't any more interesting than Bieber. None of the big-name rappers topping the charts are actual gangsters, like (fewer than would admit) their 90's counterparts were.
Rap isn't about being gangsters. In fact being a gangster, getting the "bling life" was pretty much the worst era of Rap.

Hip Hop (which is more of a lifestyle than music) has 4 tenats: DJing, MCing, Break Dancing, and Grafiti. Rapping falls under MCing in case you were wondering. So "being a gangster" or "thug life" (to quote some stereotypes) isn't necessary for rapping. Look at the Beastie Boys, they were never gangbangers or thugs, yet they're some of the most influential Hip-Hop musicians of all time. Same with Run DMC. They weren't gangsta's or looking for bling, and they practically invented Rapping as a musical genre.

So this whole notion that rappers have to be thugs/gangsta's is a product solely of the late 80's and early 90's and entirely media driven. It was because groups like NWA, who had grown up as thugs and having hard life, began rapping as a way to take out their anger. Because they became famous, along with Tupac and Biggie, all the posers started flowing in.

Rap lyrics are like the boasting of a 12-year-old school boy; I don't believe that one of these dumbfucks has the first clue how to please a woman. And what's really so sad about this is that hip-hop has continued to grow as a genre, thanks to MC's like Mos Def, The Roots (Jimmy Fallon-what the fuck?) and Dead Prez.
Well we already addressed the Hip-Hop problem, rap is just a subset of Hip-Hop overall. As for the boasting? Have you ever heard the original stuff? Again, Run DMC and the Beastie Boys. Half of their shit was bullshit boasting. I can't tell you whether or not they knew how to please a woman though, you'll have to find someone they slept with and ask them that question. Bullshitting is part of the genre, just all in good fun ways to one up people.

And yes Hip-Hop continues to grow and evolve past the radio, but the radio never plays anything good since Hip-Hop is mostly considered to be the stuff that airs on Top 40 stations, which are filled with Pop/Dance music. As for this part
Too bad none of them play on the radio, since they don't sing about being a hard nigga and fuckin' up a ***** when she don't bring home the dough.
well that's the saddest part. Most of that stuff is dying out now and is being replaced by artist's like Drake, Kid Cudi, Kanye, Mos Def, The Roots, B.O.B (he's an iffy one though, needs more material), etc. etc. but unfortunately...
See, the greatest perpetrators of black stereotypes are sorry excuses for a black man such as Li'l Wayne.
Yeah pretty much, artist's like Lil Wayne are dragging down the genre as a whole and letting people only think that Hip-Hop is still "East-Coast vs. West Coast". And it's mostly wangsters who think by listening to a guy like Lil Wayne they're suddenly tough. But eventually he's gotta stop....I hope
 

arrjay93

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Guitarmasterx7 said:
HardkorSB said:
Guitarmasterx7 said:
Have you ever considered that sometimes people dislike genres at least partially because of the lack of talent involved? I mean I'll admit there are probably exceptions (though I've never experienced any firsthand, so that's more obligatory than genuine) but at the end of the day, regardless of personal opinion, almost anyone can do this.
Really?
OK then, make a song that will make millions of people run to the dancefloor whenever it plays.
I dare you. After all, almost anyone can do that.
Or are you one of the few who can't?
That's all marketing. I'm saying that anyone can preform this song, or create something of similar complexity and composure.
Catchy music isn't as complicated as complicated music but it isn't much easier. Some of these talentless artists do better than the other talentless artists - why?
 
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Diddums, someone has a different opinion on music to you. Why is it that people like you can't just let other people have their likes and dislikes and have to have everyone lie something or just nothing it. Sure, there are a lot of good songs but if all anyone has heard from a specific genre is crap then how are they meant to know that it's the bad part of it? You write it off because what you've heard is utter shite, it's basic rules of logic:

Example 1 is shit, example 2 is shit, example 3 is shit also ... wow, all 10 examples were shit, this entire genre must be shit.

Fair play. Let them live with their choice of hatred.
 

Tim_Buoy

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NotSoNimble said:
I will stop saying 'I don't like rap' when I hear rap I like.

I hear what you're saying. But I don't think I throw the words hate around that much.
maybe i can help you with this have you heard any run dmc
 

tigermilk

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emeraldrafael said:
There's no bad Jazz unless its faked, just cause Jazz isnt supposed to be GOOD its supposed to have feeling /etitism. XD kidding.
Shit, you had me going for a minute.

As for the elitism/cultural capital/inherent value of music debate. I find it fascinating and I'll keep reading threough the thread see if there is anything new being said... You never know.
 

omega 616

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Lionsfan said:
Xhoyl said:
I don't dismiss it because of what the media says, I dismiss it because I've actually listened to it. Mostly involuntarily, but I have, and I have yet to find one I can connect to emotionally. Now, I am nothing if not open minded, so I will listen to the songs the posters said are the exception, and judge for myself. But even if any of those particular songs are good, it still says something of rap goers with how often a car drives by me with crap pounding my ears into submission.
But what does it say about Heavy Metal Listener's when I'm trying to go for a run and they drive by me, blaring something I can't hear myself think and screaming incomprehensible stuff?

Basically, just because a genre has exceptions (as tends to be the case) doesn't mean I'm gonna get into that particular genre and wade through the crap to find the good stuff.
So what you're saying is that 90% of all music is crap? Or are you just talking about the Hip-Hop genre? I'm actually curious about this, I'm not trying to start a flamewar over your specific tastes

In all honestly, I stick with what I listen to because percentage wise, I know I'm going to find a song I like more often than not.
But don't you ever just want to venture out and try some new stuff?

omega 616 said:
Stilkon said:
2) Justin Bieber is not harming the music industry financially, but he's harming its integrity (which in this day and age is pretty hard to do).
I don't know about that, pop music has turned into throw away razers. You go on X factor or some place has talent (which is usually a joke) and watch as 3 people get record contracts (even though it should only be one) after releasing 5 or so songs maybe the odd album they get forgotton about just in time for the next X factor or some place has talent.

Then bands like take that claim to be breaking up for good, only to join up again once there vast riches dry up.

I think Mitch Benn says it best ....

I completely agree here.

On topic. I think some "music" isn't music 'cos it's not made by musical instruments but it is something like music. I am not saying it's bad or anthing, I like lady Gaga and Eminem but I wouldn't say it's music.
But by that logic then Choir singing isn't music. Cause if the voice is an instrument then so everyone is using an instrument.

Music doesn't have to be using guitars/drumbs/brass intruments. Music is technically an art form whose medium is sound. If
this is considered art then I think Eminem/Lady Gaga/anyone who doesn't necessarily use an intrument is considered music
I know all about the "art is subjective" arument but a light going on and off is not art ... it's pompous, pretentious crap.

I think things that don't have instruments like guitars in should be called something else, I am not going to force it or anthing but the way I see it is, I never took computer or nothing (in the case of choirs and barber shop) in music at school.

Don't get me wrong, I love the odd bit of barber shop, rap etc but I can't call it proper music. Maybe it's just me being an awkward dick but it's just what I think.
 

Connor Lonske

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I listen to anything if it's good. Hell, I even like some rap/Hip-Hop songs, just wish the DJ and the drummer got more credit. Rapper may be good with words but I know no rapper who can play any instrument well.

DJs how ever are almost always sound engineer, having skill in a lot more than putting words together. A good DJ/Sound Engineer are as skilled as classical music writers in my option.

And drums are bad ass cause their fucking drummers.
 

kittii-chan 300

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i really hate it when someone says " oh, you like justin beiber =, your not good enogh for so and so! how dare you listen to OTHER music that is unrelated to my favourite kind which is the only REAL music!" i also hate dislike bar jokes and justin beiber comments on youtube. i'll listen to all kinds of music. i could find a song from ny genre that i like (i think)

pop: lazy song (only cuz its my theme tune)
rap: limp bizkit break stuff
rock: too much awesome! but i dont like the "old school" rock.
metal: sytem of a down. dont like any other metal really.
classical: o fortuna (or all-for-tuna)
soft: my faourite genre. i dont like some songs but i cant think of anything right now...
 

SageRuffin

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Prophetic Heresy said:
SageRuffin said:
Those were all excellent choices, although I'll admit I really hate nerd rap with MF DOOM being my only exception. If only The Escapist allowed dump threads we could just freely share all our favorites.
To each his/her own. At least I was able to be of some assistance.
 

klaynexas3

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enzilewulf said:
rock piece of shit.


nahh, i'm just messing with you. i don't really like rap all that much, but hey, if you like it, good for you. rap at least has some thought form put into making it, so i'm fine with it. but pop, pop must be purged from this planet in a never ending fire
 

aww yea

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jbr said:
I agree that there is more criticism given to rap and pop than there is to other genres but I would argue that this is completely fair. For example, I could rattle off dozens of hip-hop/RnB/pop acts that I hate. I can even tell you the lyrics to a lot of songs that I hate. The reason for this is because these acts get disproportionate amounts of coverage in mainstream media. A rock act would have to be ten times as good as a brand new pop act to get the same amount of radio play or press as them. Too often acts like this are flaunted in front of us because they make boat loads of money for a few months after which time someone new comes along to bask in the limelight. Shows like American Idol are perfect examples of this. How many winners of these shows are still around a year after their big win? The reason this happens with certain genres most is probably because it's easier to find someone with a good voice and a pretty face, give them some songs that someone else has already written and make an album. It would be much more difficult to find a whole band who write their own music and play their own instruments AND look good for the camera. Record companies make more money that way. And why shouldn't they, making money is what companies do. At least the ones that become successful. Making good music doesn't pay the bills. Making popular music does. That's why I respectfully disagree with the original poster. If people didn't ***** and moan about this kind of business, it would just get worse. Yeah, it's annoying to hear it all the time, but if I turn on the radio and hear song after song of production-line drivel instead of music that gets picked for quality rather than novelty, I get pretty annoyed as well.
It is undeniably harder to hold together a band of talented artists than a single artist and a lot easier to market singular artist (be it rap or pop), but that does not mean all rap or pop (whatever pop may be) should be discredited based on this.

***** and moan all you want about the process and the marketing. But talent and hard work deserves respect whatever genre its found in.

But i do agree that you cant stop there being more criticism toward hip-hop/pop etc because more of it is more in your face more of the time. Its just that this criticism closes people to an entire genre stopping them from "tasting" the actually good burried beneath the industries heavily marketed surface - and many people are so set in their ways that even after listening they haven't actually given it a chance in their head, or worse will not admit they quite enjoyed a song and that is clearly something that should not be happening
 

enzilewulf

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klaynexas3 said:
enzilewulf said:
rock piece of shit.


nahh, i'm just messing with you. i don't really like rap all that much, but hey, if you like it, good for you. rap at least has some thought form put into making it, so i'm fine with it. but pop, pop must be purged from this planet in a never ending fire
Now that was to blow off some steam. I was pissed for what ever reason and now I seem a little better but I can handle the fact that a lot of rap is shit but I hate it when no one sees that there is rock that is shit as well.
 

aww yea

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omega 616 said:
Lionsfan said:
Xhoyl said:
I know all about the "art is subjective" arument but a light going on and off is not art ... it's pompous, pretentious crap.
Eh i think its pretty clever, the way the room seems to change shape because of the lighting. Its pretty pleasing to the eye too

EDIT: oh something went bad... i cant be bothered to figure out how to fix it