Neverwinter Nevermore

[piinyouri]

This is always going to have a special warm place in my memory because it was my first computer RPG, and really the first computer game I ever played.

I was learning how to play the game, and how to play with a mouse and keyboard at the same time.


*tears up*

Goddamn I love this game.

 

[Albino Boo]

Damn, this has once again reminded me how much Bioware has declined. Everyone should stop buying anything from Bioware until they make Neverwinter Nights 3, or something similar.

They don't own the D&D license any more so they can't make NN3.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

This article has made me really want to dive back into the Arelith servers again, but I'm so used to 3.5 now...

Nice read, E.T.

 

[Caffiene]

I just know that the new baldurs gate will have nothing near it.

Probably not... But its worth pointing out that the head developer behind Baldurs Gate: EE was Project Director for NWN, and hes made mention of the flexibility as something hes especially proud of. From some comments hes made on twitter, I think if he could he would.

 

[Susan Arendt]

<- made the NWN horse system.

You're welcome.

No way. Really? I never thought about the person behind the stuff I downloaded for that game... That's really cool.

<- made the NWN horse system.

You're welcome.

Showoff.

Someone's jealous

No, he's a friend of mine, and I'm teasing him. Unlike most game journalists, I have no aspirations to be a developer.

 

[SoulSalmon]

Damn...
Playing this with a group of 3-5 friends? fucking priceless.

Loads of memories where we'd all come out barely alive after a tough encounter, and try to rest, but one guy just HAD to try and break open the chest first (despite the fact we had people with the unlocking spell), which was usually trapped and got us all killed >.>

Edit: To clear up the chest breaking, that was some RP we injected, he made a warrior and didn't put much onto intelligence, so he couldn't speak properly. It caught us by suprise and he just kinda decided on the spot to roll with it.

I may not support Bioware anymore, but they did do a lot right at one stage...

 

[Mouse_Crouse]

Not to be 'that' guy (or kid more likely).

But the only game that has done the same giving up servers and multiplayer content creation to fans while not asking money beyond initial purchase is Minecraft.

Although admittedly not an RPG out of box. Many modders are busy inserting those systems.

I don't know... games like Little Big Planet, and Trials HD actually offer a stunning amount of tools. I don't know about LBP, but the Trials creation engine is exactly what the devs used to make the levels themselves. Effectively anything is possible, people have made puzzle games and FPSs in the Trials engine.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Neverwinter Nights 2 failed to capture the spirit or accessibility of its predecessor. Today, the first Neverwinter Nights still boasts a stronger online community than the sequel that was meant to replace it.

Wrong. The NWN 2 roleplaying scene is thriving very well, actually. I may be a bit bias because I'm currently part of a team developing a roleplaying server based in Amn. A lot of the technical issues have since been fixed either by Obsidian or by player generated patches. There's a huge amount of custom content and several servers that consistently have full population at peak hours (usually around 80 players). Anyone who hasn't roleplayed on NWN or NWN 2 has missed a huge opportunity in the game, though it's never too late to pop in.

You can't fix that module size hardcap

PS: EFU Represent. We made Ed Greenwood sad.

Spoiler: An Anecdote about Ed Greenwood

1:44:31] I've been giving Ed shit for inventing Realms swears for months now
[21:44:51] I keep telling him he should use shit like "Banes Black Balls" or whatnot
[21:44:56] NoooOOOooOOOooOoo
[21:45:00] I do that!
[21:45:05] He has to make up words like "Stlarn"
[21:45:13] "Smells worse than H'bala's armpit down here"
[21:45:17] He's a stlarning idiot, if you ask me
[21:45:21] whose Ed?
[21:45:29] Greenwood, he and I chat on FB
[21:45:30] I like what the Star Wars EU writers did:
[21:45:31] "Fierfek"
[21:45:34] Good god that's awkward to say. "stlarn"
[21:45:38] Just a slight variation of "fuck".
[21:45:38] <Gotham|Away> tell him his books are lousy
[21:45:43] I have
[21:45:53] <Gotham|Away> seriously i read falconfar and was like fuck
[21:45:54] wait you for realsies Mag
[21:45:56] I also told him that he needs to put Elminster away for once and for all
[21:45:58] <Gotham|Away> is this a fantasy book or porn
[21:46:01] <Gotham|Away> PICK ONE
[21:46:03] <Gotham|Away> AND MAKE IT BETTER
[21:46:10] and I thought he had
[21:46:10] <Gotham|Away> seriously though just fuck the winged chick goddamn
[21:46:20] then he BRINGS HIM BACK AS SMOKE
[21:46:28] <Gotham|Away> thats pretty pimpin
[21:46:37] <Gotham|Away> Wizards can now summon Elminster by tokin
[21:46:38] I'm like "Ed. Just let it go"
[21:46:50] <Gotham|Away> ask Ed if he can kill off Drizzt for us
[21:47:04] He's going to ride that pony for as long as he can make a best seller list somewhere in the world
[21:47:06] <Gotham|Away> how does he feel about whats happened to the FR setting these days, btw
[21:47:12] <Gotham|Away> I guess I can't blame him
[21:47:14] <Gotham|Away> i'd do the same thing
[21:47:20] <Gotham|Away> fuck gotta make a buck somehow
[21:47:22] His words - If the paychecks keep coming in, they can do as they like
[21:47:30] <Gotham|Away> haha
[21:47:42] <Gotham|Away> thats amusing and slightly depressing at the same time
[21:47:53] Crim - Check the efu FB page, find me, check my friends
[21:48:11] he's on there, which dosnt necessarily mean anything, but at least its something
[21:48:16] You're friends with Ed Greenwood?
[21:48:19] tell him to play efu
[21:48:25] Magister sighs
[21:48:27] <Gotham|Away> too low level
[21:48:29] Ok, for once and for all
[21:48:34] HE HAS
[21:48:35] oh shit
[21:48:39] it's ed greenwood
[21:48:44] magister is ed greenwood?
[21:48:44] <Gotham|Away> please someone tell me he got ganked
[21:48:49] He did
[21:48:49] <Gotham|Away> Ed Greenwood logs on
[21:48:51] <Gotham|Away> he gets YEESSS
[21:48:52] i wonder
[21:48:53] <Gotham|Away> AHAHAHAHAH
[21:48:55] if i should post his page here
[21:48:56] and he QUIT
[21:49:00] lol
[21:49:01] <Gotham|Away> Someone put that onto a fucking poster
[21:49:07] <Gotham|Away> EFU: We Fucked over Ed Greenwood
[21:49:14] why did he quit Mag?
[21:49:17] <Gotham|Away> oh shit wait did he play that order sorc?
[21:49:20] Magister: like, seriously played it, or like, played tourist for an houro r two?
[21:49:22] his drow app got denied
[21:49:41] He played it for a few weeks
[21:49:55] then he fell into his Elminster mindset, and pissed off a Caddies pc
[21:50:00] <Gotham|Away> rofl
[21:50:02] BAM
[21:50:03] lol
[21:50:05] XD
[21:50:07] haha this has got to be a joke
[21:50:10] <Gotham|Away> has anyone told Caddies
[21:50:26] when was this?
[21:50:27] LOL
[21:50:27] Next thing he knows, he's getting familiar with the death system, and the notion that he wont be an Archmage after all
[21:50:36] Yeah, I'm not sure whether to believe you or not, Magister xD
[21:50:38] I swear to god, I thought he was going to cry
[21:50:39] <thomas|mIRC> He played during EFU
[21:50:47] http://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142
[21:50:51] <thomas|mIRC> Not EFU:A or EFU:M
[21:50:55] <Gotham|Away> ahahah aww\
[21:50:58] EFU:A
[21:51:04] <Gotham|Away> thats funny though
[21:51:07] <Gotham|Away> we've all been there Ed
[21:51:13] <Gotham|Away> we've all been there :\
[21:51:16] what was his PC?
[21:51:17] <thomas|mIRC> Caddies has only killed one of my PCs
[21:51:51] I cant recall the name anymore, it was flighty and frivolous, something most of us would hate
[21:52:05] that's pretty awesome if you're serious
[21:52:07] <Gotham|Away> Ed mostly does high magic high adventure stuff anyway
[21:52:09] I like flighty and frivolous
[21:52:11] <Gotham|Away> I can't imagine EFU being his bag
[21:52:15] I remember this vaguely
[21:52:16] Oh no
[21:52:20] You speaking about this
[21:52:22] He really liked EFU
[21:52:27] <Gotham|Away> what, really?
[21:52:31] <Gotham|Away> until Caddies killed him anyway
[21:52:33] yeah i also remember you mentioning this before, but i thought it was a joke
[21:52:34] <Gotham|Away> fucking caddies
[21:52:35] He said it was a lot closer to the way the realms were when he DMd them
[21:52:51] Darker and more dangerous
[21:52:52] <Gotham|Away> Caddies confirmed for Canon

 

[JuliusMagnus]

Not to be 'that' guy (or kid more likely).

But the only game that has done the same giving up servers and multiplayer content creation to fans while not asking money beyond initial purchase is Minecraft.

Although admittedly not an RPG out of box. Many modders are busy inserting those systems.

I don't know... games like Little Big Planet, and Trials HD actually offer a stunning amount of tools. I don't know about LBP, but the Trials creation engine is exactly what the devs used to make the levels themselves. Effectively anything is possible, people have made puzzle games and FPSs in the Trials engine.

True,

But in this case I was looking at the persistent world capabilities of a game like Minecraft to mimick what was done with Neverwinter Nights.

I could have also talked about Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/NV creation kits but sadly they don't offer persistent worlds out of box.

The reason why this is less common than LBP/Trials/TES is that there is the serverside of the equation. It's increasingly rare for developers/publishers to allow you to set up your own servers for free.

 

[Mouse_Crouse]

True,

But in this case I was looking at the persistent world capabilities of a game like Minecraft to mimick what was done with Neverwinter Nights.

I could have also talked about Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/NV creation kits but sadly they don't offer persistent worlds out of box.

The reason why this is less common than LBP/Trials/TES is that there is the serverside of the equation. It's increasingly rare for developers/publishers to allow you to set up your own servers for free.

Very true hadn't considered the persistent worlds part.

 

[ThriKreen]

No way. Really? I never thought about the person behind the stuff I downloaded for that game... That's really cool.

The NWN mod scene was VERY active, as unlike modding for most games which usually involved a lot of programming or 3D modeling work, there's an aspect with writing that allowed aspiring DMs to write adventures for people to take part in.

A handful of modders even got hired at Bioware (like yours truly) among other places.

No, he's a friend of mine, and I'm teasing him. Unlike most game journalists, I have no aspirations to be a developer.

Don't make me bring my trout along to the Expo!

Also I'll repost from elsewhere:

So many fond memories of modding NWN and playing in DMed games and PWs.

A far cry from MMOs where the focus seems to be just on leveling up and gaining more power. Since one could just use the toolset to make yourself uberpowerful, the desire to "beat" other players is lowered, so games tended to be more on the character interaction and having fun with everyone in the party.

My favourite role-playing incident was having a pacifist airheaded cleric who loved everyone and tried to heal them, deciding the Big Bad must be anemic since he wanted our blood, so she casted Heal on him. He went up in flames, who knew?

The best non-rp incident was a random player in a PW joining our party, but then trying to be a munchkin and killing the deer in the area for their measly 1XP. But then some bug happened and the whole deer faction went hostile to him.

Nothing beat watching the poor guy run around the level with this horde of deer chasing him. "Help me!" he would cry, but as I was playing my airheaded pacifist cleric again, her response was along the lines of "That's what you get you big meanie!"

I wonder if I can create a NWN-like editor and engine with Unity3D? There were a couple things that NWN did right that games nowadays still don't, but Unity comes really close and with some set up, I could make that DragonLance PW environment I've been designing.

 

[E. T. Brooking]

Not to be 'that' guy (or kid more likely).

But the only game that has done the same giving up servers and multiplayer content creation to fans while not asking money beyond initial purchase is Minecraft.

Although admittedly not an RPG out of box. Many modders are busy inserting those systems.

I gave a lot of thought to Minecraft and the Source RP scene while writing this piece. Those systems permit much more player freedom than NWN's Aurora toolset. Given enough time and effort, architects can create almost anything, at no additional cost and playable with others from around the world. That's simply awesome.

The distinction is that, in addition to its sophisticated world-building client, NWN also provided a faithful implementation of the D&D 3.0 ruleset. Just as you could spend dozens of hours finding the perfect server, you could spend dozens more hours trying to find the perfect character build or pvp strategy. NWN was intended to be a deep, heavily customizable role-playing experience. It succeeded and it didn't nickel-and-dime its players in the process.

<- made the NWN horse system.

You're welcome.

ThriKreen...now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. A long time.

Probably not since the notes from one of the post-HotU patches! Thanks, a few years after the fact, for making us all feel a bit less silly when traveling across those absurdly sized grassland areas so many servers insisted on having.


Thinking back, the NWN community really was one of a kind. There were superb writers, master programmers, and visionaries who could breath life into a 300+ area module. I'd be interested to see what they've gotten up to since.

My username was Tulin_Darkarian if anyone remembers me. I was a regrettable "eh." across all three fields of that writer/programmer/visionary spectrum.

 

[Gather]

Instead, modern MMOs have hewed to the example set by Blizzard's wildly popular and profitable World of Warcraft. That game, released in 2004, sent shockwaves through Neverwinter Nights' comparatively pint-sized online community. Those who investigated the realm of Azeroth returned describing a slickly professional space teeming with endless players and quests. The experience was diligently policed and controlled. There was none of Neverwinter Nights' barely bridled chaos; in World of Warcraft, any such dynamism was developer-produced.

So, how exactly is this different? A small number of people create a world that a bunch of other people play in. It's exactly the same as for NN, except done by professionals instead of hobbyists. I think where you go wrong is in calling WoW a single world. Sure, WoW is, but WoW is equivalent to just one of the mods for NN. If you want something different then you just play a different game, just as you could with NN. Far from taking anything away, MMOs are simply the logical extension of what people were trying to do themselves with the limited tools NN had to offer.

Neverwinter Nights is different because of it's size; it is much easier for a player to have some sort of real change to the world (That the developer never planned to implement). This could be creating a faction that (eventually) become a permanent feature to the world. The "real" persistent worlds evolve or change according to what the player needs.

WoW is a world you play in; your path is linear with a story you "read".

A good persistent world in Neverwinter Nights becomes your world and a story you create.
----
It is the ultimate difference between a "theme park" MMO and a "Sandpit" MMO.

 

[PPB]

I always keep NWN installed on my computers and still play it semi-frequently. Some player-made modules put many retail games to shame and, as the article says, the online community was something to see.

Following NWN2's relative failure, I was hoping Dragon Age would ressurect the idea of custom modules with its toolset, but it never went very far. It's a real shame, but I guess we'll never see another game like NWN.

 

[Glenn Radley]

This is my favourite game of all time. I still drop in on Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mists. Still has a dedicated group of around 30 players 24 hours a day.

Unbelievable online playability.

 

[beefpelican]

Yeah I spent a good bit of time playing this game back when I was in college. I wanted to comment on the article though, in addition to the 2 expansion packs Bioware did release a couple of smaller $10 campaigns for the game.

Really? Not counting Hordes and Shadows? What were they called?

(also, this dish related captcha could easily be read by a program. I think the point of the captcha is being missed here.)

 

[mellemhund]

That brought back memories. I spent a couple of years with NWN online and was fasinated by the depth of RPG on some servers, the worlds on others and the action packed dungeon crawling on servers.

I tried WoW afterwards, but it never was the same to me. The RPG seemed pointless and the world to generic. I hope for newer gamers, that they will have the chance to experience such a world as was NWN online.

 

[ThriKreen]

Really? Not counting Hordes and Shadows? What were they called?

They were the Premium Modules, the pre-cursor to DLC.

Witch's Wake, Shadowguard, Kingmaker, which you can get as part of NWN Diamond or the Kingmaker pack.

And download only (which I worked on): Pirates of the Sword Coast, Infinite Dungeons, and WyvernCrown of Cormyr (HORSES).

 

[DeathQuaker]

Funny thing, I never played NWN multiplayer and never had any interest in it. I still loved fanmade single player modules for it and NWN2. Definitely agree in giving it accolades but I never even think of it as a multiplayer game. And I find there's an interesting disconnect where single player NWNers seldom consider the multiplayer aspects, and vice versa.

And NWN2 was a fantastic experience for a single player gamer -- yeah, they borked the multiplayer, but as a single player game it was great (and I actually preferred NWN2's toolset).

And I think NWN2 teaches a lesson there...

The thing about NWN is that it was in development for a looong time. It was actually originally going to be an Interplay game before Interplay collasped--you were originally going to be able to import your Baldur's Gate characters into it (so said a loading screen in BG2). They had lots and lots of time to figure out what was an extremely complex gaming engine, beyond just making a single game.

NWN2 comparatively was made in a much shorter timeframe, by an at-that-time new company that was forced to use someone else's by-that-point aging game engine and upgrade it and add new things to it--oh, and convert the mechanics from D&D 3.0 to 3.5. Trying to make it do all the stuff that NWN did plus update the graphics and game mechanics in a couple years was a ridiculously tall order. Hence the borked multiplayer and other things. (I still loved the game, but again, I don't play multiplayer, so I didn't get burned like the multiplayer players felt they did.)

And the thing is, to develop a game--or rather software system like NWN---that can be a comprehensive single player game, toolset, GM tool, and persistent world provider--in this day and age with current tech and getting everything right would take way, way, way longer than most developers are given time to create. Maybe in the era of Kickstarter and indie projects it would be possible but for now I'd be skeptical it could happen again for awhile.