New Pope Elected: Cardinal Robert Prevost Elected by Conclave

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tstorm823

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It doesn't matter whether there was "more" collaboration or oppression. There is no meaningful difference between 51% oppression and 49% oppression. 25% oppression and 10% oppression are also still oppression: the mass denial of opportunity, wasting of talent, font of dissatisfaction and frustration for teeming multitudes across centuries.
Everyone in some way or another is denied opportunities or has their talent wasted. You are not obligated to feel dissatisfied or frustrated because life isn't optimized for you. Most people don't sit around brooding about how much more they could be doing if things were slightly different, since things could always be different, and dwelling on that is an infinite pit of despair. You can choose to be satisfied and grateful with the opportunities you do have.
The subordination of women with men as primary beneficiaries.
The primary beneficiaries of men were women, but you're not going to call that subordination.
 

Agema

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Everyone in some way or another is denied opportunities or has their talent wasted. You are not obligated to feel dissatisfied or frustrated because life isn't optimized for you. Most people don't sit around brooding about how much more they could be doing if things were slightly different, since things could always be different, and dwelling on that is an infinite pit of despair. You can choose to be satisfied and grateful with the opportunities you do have.
Sure.

If we apply that to the Holocaust, you would therefore argue that the Jews should not have bemoaned their fate, but accepted their fate with good grace. And that the lesson the world should learn from it is to look upon the horrors that man inflicts on man, shrug and say their regrets, but try to look on the bright side.

The primary beneficiaries of men were women, but you're not going to call that subordination.
If you take a loaf of bread off someone and give them a few slices of it back, you shouldn't necessarily expect to be congratulated for your generosity.
 
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tstorm823

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Sure.

If we apply that to the Holocaust, you would therefore argue that the Jews should not have bemoaned their fate, but accepted their fate with good grace. And that the lesson the world should learn from it is to look upon the horrors that man inflicts on man, shrug and say their regrets, but try to look on the bright side.
Because the downside of the Holocaust is frustration and dissatisfaction?
If you take a loaf of bread off someone and give them a few slices of it back, you shouldn't necessarily expect to be congratulated for your generosity.
If you take a loaf of bread off of someone and give them a fish back, it's entire possible (or even likely) that both sides benefit from the exchange.

Edit: I wanna de-abstract this one quick. Men did things for women, women did things for men, they arranged in ways that worked for them. Some of what they did is obsolete now, some could likely have been improved on even in the times they happened, but men gaining from having women around does not mean women lost from having men around.
 

Agema

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Because the downside of the Holocaust is frustration and dissatisfaction?
So your line of reasoning suggests, yes.

If you take a loaf of bread off of someone and give them a fish back, it's entire possible (or even likely) that both sides benefit from the exchange.
If you give them a fish back. But you might just give them a few slices of bread. Or a slap round the face and tell them to be thankful they didn't get punched instead. You can do whatever you please, because you have all the social and legal power.
 
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tstorm823

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So your line of reasoning suggests, yes.
I quoted you...
If you give them a fish back. But you might just give them a few slices of bread. Or a slap round the face and tell them to be thankful they didn't get punched instead. You can do whatever you please, because you have all the social and legal power.
There are like a hundred ways to go at this, the recency of the common man having any legal power among them. But my favorite is imagining love and compassion as modern inventions. "Oh, there were trans people, they were just covered up. Yeah, all the thousands of years of people going on and on about the love between husbands and wives was made up too, they just kinda slapped women around until the 20th century."
 

Agema

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I quoted you...
Spare me that weakest of weak-ass shit. Your response to a quotation is all your responsibility.

There are like a hundred ways to go at this, the recency of the common man having any legal power among them. But my favorite is imagining love and compassion as modern inventions. "Oh, there were trans people, they were just covered up. Yeah, all the thousands of years of people going on and on about the love between husbands and wives was made up too, they just kinda slapped women around until the 20th century."
What on earth is it with you and the constant straw men?

Nobody's saying husbands were never kind, decent, loving (although of course, you did recently say that love wasn't the main point of marriage, but let's leave that aside for now). Sometimes they were, sometimes they were not.

But abusing people in large part comes down to opportunity and power. The more a system or institution facilitates abuse, the more abuse is likely to occur. The more a system makes it hard to prevent or escape abuse, the more abuse tends to occur.Serious domestic violence tends to be inflicted by men on women just because men tend to be more physically powerful. The status of women until relatively recently made abuse of women extraordinarily easy to do, hard to prevent, and hard for women to escape.
 

tstorm823

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Spare me that weakest of weak-ass shit. Your response to a quotation is all your responsibility.
I don't think there is a stronger argument I could provide than you criticizing your own arguments.
Nobody's saying husbands were never kind, decent, loving (although of course, you did recently say that love wasn't the main point of marriage, but let's leave that aside for now).
Somebody is claiming that historical human relationships were a system of oppression against women. That is was a "font of dissatisfaction and frustration", and that if historical records suggest otherwise it is because the men benefitted from not writing it down. You think the past is simply more of the worst abuses of the current time stretching backwards because (when it suits your arguments) it is simply impossible that people could be making things worse now.
 

Agema

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I don't think there is a stronger argument I could provide than you criticizing your own arguments.
No, it's just behaving like a dick.

You're quoting me in trivial ways that don't represent the line of argument and then trying to pretend I'm arguing against myself. Petty, dishonest, and aggravating: thus behaving like a dick.
 

tstorm823

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No, it's just behaving like a dick.

You're quoting me in trivial ways that don't represent the line of argument and then trying to pretend I'm arguing against myself. Petty, dishonest, and aggravating: thus behaving like a dick.
You argued even "10% oppression" (your words) would rob people of opportunities and fill them with frustration. I argued that's not how people typically deal with marginal hardships, that people don't typically despair that things could be "slightly different" (my words), and then you jumped to the Holocaust. I do not think the Holocaust is applicable to the discussion we were having. You are welcome to revisit that argument.
 

Agema

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You argued even "10% oppression" (your words), I argued that's not how people typically deal with marginal hardships, that people don't typically despair that things could be "slightly different" (my words), and then you jumped to the Holocaust. I do not think the Holocaust is applicable to the discussion we were having. You are welcome to revisit that argument.
What if "10% oppression" isn't a "marginal hardship", it's murdering a tenth of the population?
 

Agema

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If there was a downvote button...
There's a whole world of history out there to know what oppression of women has meant, and it was my expectation you might engage with it. It involves a wide range of disadvantagement and maltreatment, all the way up to institutionalised violence and killing them. We are after all talking about the real world here. Why would you not think that was part of it?
 
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Gergar12

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"The Pope is not a political figure".

Apparently someone forgot the Pope is the head of state of a sovereign nation.
Well, one. Everything is political. But going by normie standards of what is, and isn't, Popes have sided with the US against the USSR Was that political? How about the time Pope Francis lectured JD Vance on compassion, given that JD Vance is a world leader?

And at the core of politics is simply power; is the spiritual leader of 1-2 billion people someone with no power over anything? Rubio shouldn't have accepted this job, but he's in the game, so he may as well. Someone rich pay 800K for his crappy house a while back. Looks like they called in their debt.