New Title IX guidelines formalized by Betsy DeVos.

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SupahEwok

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According to this, approximately 77,000 cases a year in the US rely solely on eye witness testimony.

Of course we would not want to disregard eye witness testimony otherwise, criminals would be able to run rampant as long as they know to destroy the evidence. It isn't like we have CCTV every where in the US. I think it is far more likely you would punish one innocent to catch 1000 criminals.
At a glance I can't seem to find any indication of the statistic when it comes to crimes with a single eye witness, so that probably cuts the cases down a bit, at least I'd assume that some of those 77,000 would involve multiple witnesses.

Also, this

"But the empirical facts about the validity of EW testimony, especially EW identification, are very disturbing. Aside from those few well-publicized cases of mistaken identity offering clear evidence that sometimes real witnesses make grave errors and innocentpeople are either imprisoned or executed (Wall, 1965), the outcomes of nearly all controlled psychological investigations employing realistic simulated crimes or staged events strongly suggest that identification errors in the real world may be relatively frequent , rather than rare . "

Is disconcerting.
I read of an informal experiment done once at what I think was a psychologist's conference. The way the story went, a presentation was being held, full room of a sitting audience, all of them educated on matters of observations and perceptional bias.

A man came running through screaming, and he was followed by anothe man, waving a gun. They ran through the room, coming in from different entrances, and out, through different exits. Naturally, a lot of panic, before the speaker told everyone to calm down, and explained the experiment: everybody had a pad and pencil under their seats to record what they saw, and would they please write it out while it was fresh.

On review of these witness testimonies, it was found that not one got all the details right: the entrances and exits of the victim and aggressor, their clothes, skin color, facial descriptions. Most people only correctly reported a few attributes correctly each. It would have been a terrible mess trying to identify the correct details with only the collected testimony.

If anything, our legal systems place too much emphasis on eyewitness testimony as it is. It's not reliable, and it's prone to both prosecution and defense "massaging" the details in their "testimony prep". I am inclined against believing in any conviction based exclusively on eyewitness testimony, with no corroborating physical evidence.
 

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I read of an informal experiment done once at what I think was a psychologist's conference. The way the story went, a presentation was being held, full room of a sitting audience, all of them educated on matters of observations and perceptional bias.

A man came running through screaming, and he was followed by anothe man, waving a gun. They ran through the room, coming in from different entrances, and out, through different exits. Naturally, a lot of panic, before the speaker told everyone to calm down, and explained the experiment: everybody had a pad and pencil under their seats to record what they saw, and would they please write it out while it was fresh.

On review of these witness testimonies, it was found that not one got all the details right: the entrances and exits of the victim and aggressor, their clothes, skin color, facial descriptions. Most people only correctly reported a few attributes correctly each. It would have been a terrible mess trying to identify the correct details with only the collected testimony.

If anything, our legal systems place too much emphasis on eyewitness testimony as it is. It's not reliable, and it's prone to both prosecution and defense "massaging" the details in their "testimony prep". I am inclined against believing in any conviction based exclusively on eyewitness testimony, with no corroborating physical evidence.
There is a HUGE difference though between someone running through quickly in a crowded place causing a panic than someone on top of you talking directly to you raping you. You remember everything about them. Their stench, the way their breath smells how oily or dry their hair is, whether they have enlarged pores or not on top of their height, weight, hair color, eye color ect..

When someone is running into a crowded area with a gun, the last thing you want to do is look at them, that increases the likelihood you get shot. Your immediate response is you want to protect those around you and yourself, You hit the ground face first to prevent you from getting shot or try to take cover somewhere nearby . But then again, after my cousin was shot changing a tire in his driveway, my cousins pretty much threw me face first in the dirt every time a van drove by slowly after that so it may have impacted my response as to what to do by repetition.

I do not see the situations as comparable though to them actually attacking you, actually robbing you, or raping you. In that situation, you are forced to deal with them directly and you will remember it far more than someone running by.
 

Agema

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Also, this

"But the empirical facts about the validity of EW testimony, especially EW identification, are very disturbing. Aside from those few well-publicized cases of mistaken identity offering clear evidence that sometimes real witnesses make grave errors and innocentpeople are either imprisoned or executed (Wall, 1965), the outcomes of nearly all controlled psychological investigations employing realistic simulated crimes or staged events strongly suggest that identification errors in the real world may be relatively frequent , rather than rare . "

Is disconcerting.
True, bit it's a bit more nuanced than that. In many cases, EW testimonies are about things that happened in a short, stressed and potential chaotic moment involving relatively unfamiliar people and places. Where the eyewitness is more familiar with the people and places involved, they will probably be much more reliable.

Lastly, the argument wasn't to the effect of the current policy, but as to the judicial ideal. Are we truly willing to sacrifice the innocents to get the guilty? If so, what is the ratio we're willing to trade on?
I believe this is Blackstone's ratio: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

However, other people have used anything up to a thousand in place of ten. That said, I don't think the actual number is meant to be precise, it's merely to indicate a principle that courts should err on the side of innocence.

Of course, authoritarians turn it round the other way. Bismarck for instance expressed a preference for the innocent to be found guilty than let the guilty go free. And more recently and close to home, Dick Cheney thought the huge proportion of innocents swept up, indefinitely detained and put through "enhanced interrogation" a trivial price to pay to expose terrorists.

One might argue that it could be governed not by principle but by pragmatism. If crime is sufficiently rampant, maybe it's better to wrongly condemn the innocent, and if not to wrongly free the guilty.
 

Trunkage

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Lastly, the argument wasn't to the effect of the current policy, but as to the judicial ideal. Are we truly willing to sacrifice the innocents to get the guilty? If so, what is the ratio we're willing to trade on?
Are we truly willing to let guilty thousands of people go so we have the already very outside chance of a wrong conviction stay pretty much at the same rate (eg. going down .001%)? Or are you going to put up some random numbers too?

Here's a study stating that there could be 11.6% of pre-DNA testing era. But. later in the piece, it states only 300 people have been exonerated from that period. Which seems surprisingly low. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...ent-sexual-assault-cases-pre-dna-testing-era/

The issue being that many would have died already. Also, DNA makes it much more clear that you at least have the right person, and it usually comes down to whether it can be classed as rape
 

SupahEwok

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How can you be Super Skillet instead of Super Ewok?! All is not right with the world now :LOL:
.View attachment 117
It's not a skillet. It's an electronic wok of superior quality.

A Supah E-Wok, if you will.

Edit: both this avatar and the other one are drawn by the same friend. I like to switch between them every once in a while.
 

dreng3

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Are we truly willing to let guilty thousands of people go so we have the already very outside chance of a wrong conviction stay pretty much at the same rate (eg. going down .001%)? Or are you going to put up some random numbers too?

Here's a study stating that there could be 11.6% of pre-DNA testing era. But. later in the piece, it states only 300 people have been exonerated from that period. Which seems surprisingly low. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...ent-sexual-assault-cases-pre-dna-testing-era/

The issue being that many would have died already. Also, DNA makes it much more clear that you at least have the right person, and it usually comes down to whether it can be classed as rape
Thing is, I don't know the stats, but I know that from an ethical standpoint I'd never want to an innocent to be punished, of course that isn't practically possible, unless we abolish punishment completely. My original response was to the suggestion that the justice system should take neither the position of innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent. My point was that it is by necessity that we must decide which stance we take and that the guilty until proven innocent must then lead us to question how many innocents we are willing to sacrifice on the altar of putting away the guilty.
 

Schadrach

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That greater discretion in the past is what lead to Larry Nassar being able to sexually assault more girls at Michigan State before finally having anything done to stop him.
We had this for a long time already, more often than not, the school decided they didn't want to draw attention to the issue and would turn a blind eye instead pretending nothing was wrong allowing for more victims to pile up in the process. People do not seem to care until it happens to their kid.

What about the lawsuits from all the girls who are sexually abused and the schools ignored it happening? We have a long history of this being a serious problem. When you weigh the sheer numbers of assault victims vs the number of false reports, due to universities inaction in the past, it does not make sense to promote more inaction.
- Any person may report sex discrimination, including sexual harassment (whether or not the person reporting is the person alleged to be the victim of conduct that could constitute sex discrimination or sexual harassment), in person, by mail, by telephone, or by e-mail, using the contact information listed for the Title IX Coordinator, or by any other means that results in the Title IX Coordinator receiving the person’s verbal or written report.

- The Title IX Coordinator must promptly contact the complainant confidentially to discuss the availability of supportive measures, consider the complainant’s wishes with respect to supportive measures, inform the complainant of the availability of supportive measures with or without the filing of a formal complaint, and explain to the complainant the process for filing a formal complaint.

- The Final Rule requires a school to investigate sexual harassment allegations in any formal complaint, which can be filed by a complainant, or signed by a Title IX Coordinator.
- The Final Rule affirms that a complainant’s wishes with respect to whether the school investigates should be respected unless the Title IX Coordinator determines that signing a formal complaint to initiate an investigation over the wishes of the complainant is not clearly unreasonable in light of the known circumstances.
It appears as though anyone can report to the Title IX Coordinator, and the Coordinator must have a confidential meeting with the alleged victim as to their options, including the possibility of a formal complaint. The Coordinator can also determine that filing a formal complaint themselves against the wishes of the alleged victim is not clearly unreasonable and do so. If a formal complaint is filed, it *must* be investigated. There's no option to know about it and ignore it that isn't a Title IX violation.

I don't think I've ever heard of a case decided solely on the eyewitness testimony of the victim along with the suspect having no alibi, but I might be wrong
You haven't followed many sexual assault cases then. That's pretty typical. Very often the victim delays reporting and destroys evidence, and by the time it's reported all you have to go on is the accuser claiming it happened and the accused claiming it didn't, often with no other evidence backing either of them.

A large majority of cases exonerated by the Innocence Project have been sexual assault cases. 2/3 of those with black men accused. It makes the Innocence Project a fun one to bring up around certain types of social justice folks, who love it because it mostly proves black men innocent of the crimes they were accused of, but also hate it because it mostly gets people cleared of sexual assault convictions.

Here's a study stating that there could be 11.6% of pre-DNA testing era. But. later in the piece, it states only 300 people have been exonerated from that period. Which seems surprisingly low. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...ent-sexual-assault-cases-pre-dna-testing-era/

The issue being that many would have died already.
Just pointing out that you are literally saying that for the time frame in question, upwards of 1 in 9 folks convicted were actually innocent, and that many of them died before anything could be done about it. People complaining that we worry too much about due process and the rights of the accused are wishing this rate would be higher.

Oh, and that Betsy and Trump used these new guidelines to reduce trans people's protections is also a problem.
Different set of guidelines, regarding the same law. Also the very article you linked suggests that DeVos resisted that bit.

These guidelines were meant to make it harder for victims of rape to get justice,
Can you point to something specific in the guidelines that makes it harder, and is unfair to the complainant? I'd love to see what you're aiming at, but you have a bad habit of being vague.

For example, is it the part where "supportive measures" offered to the complainant before the investigation is completed aren't allowed to punish or unreasonably burden the accused? Is it the part where both the complainant and respondent are allowed to have representation? Is it the part where testimony can be questioned? Point me at something specific you find problematic in the guidelines regarding sexual assault Title IX compliance.
 

SupahEwok

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Huh. That's unfortunate. Used to the old forum where if I user was banned it said as much on their posts.
If you try to go to her profile page you'll see that you're not allowed.

Forums are still a work in progress in some ways, the powers that be are just focusing on other projects.
 

Trunkage

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Just pointing out that you are literally saying that for the time frame in question, upwards of 1 in 9 folks convicted were actually innocent, and that many of them died before anything could be done about it. People complaining that we worry too much about due process and the rights of the accused are wishing this rate would be higher.
Just pointing out that there are about 80,000 rape cases in 2012. Alone. I don't know the range for before the 80s but I'll estimate around 50,000

That 300 wrongful convicted rape cases was the ENTIREITY leading up to 1984 (I think that was the year the report stated, and I'd have to check, but entirety started at 72. That's 25 cases per year for the 12 years they look at. Against 50,000. So 0.0005% )
 

ralfy

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There is no need for coordinators and committees. The victim should report the incident to the police.
 

lil devils x

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There is no need for coordinators and committees. The victim should report the incident to the police.
So how does the school handle court ordered restraining orders? Issue of the perpetrators and victim sharing classes? Issues of the perpetrators or their friends who attend the same school harassing the victim? What about when the accusation is against someone who works at or with the school? or has been a guest of the school?

In addition, it is not always safe to report sexual assaults to the police, especially in cases where the perpetrators were officers or friends of officers or in communities where retaliation happens frequently. In some cases they can instead harass and charge the victim with a crime rather than allowing the victim to press charges. There is no victim protection in the US, so the victims life is still at risk even after they press charges and has even be killed by their attacker while they are out on bail.

More on this:

Due to how poorly rape is still handled in the US, it still is not always safe to report. Even when you have an 11 yr old child gang raped by 22 men, you still have lawyers in the US who are willing to blame the child. Until something seriously changes, I am not seeing that as being always an option here.

When these things are still rampant in the US, yes much more really needs to be done.
"Rape is the easiest violent crime to get away with in the United States. On average, less than 1% of sexual assaults ever lead to conviction.
Let me break that number down. According to the Justice Department's most recent National Criminal Victimization Survey, only 23% of rape or sexual assault victims reported the crime to police.
Of those who do report, the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database shows that only about 20% of reports lead to arrest. According to the nonprofit Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, which analyzes national data regarding sexual assault and rape, only about half of arrests lead to trial."


 

CM156

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you still have lawyers in the US who are willing to blame the child
Well yes, that's the defense attorney. Their job is to try to present the evidence that paints the defendant in the best light. And some times, that means casting doubt on the victim in ways that moral people find reprehensible.

You've got to understand, legal ethics and normal human ethics are very different things. And one of the basic duties of a defense attorney is to try to present any argument that, if accepted by the finder of law (the judge) or the finder(s) of fact (the jury, usually) will cause them to view the defense in a more favorable way, and the argument isn't legally frivolous (a high bar), the defense is allowed to make that argument. Trials are full of these "hail Mary" motions all the time. I've filed motions that I know had less than a 1% chance of being accepted, but I did so anyways because if they were, we would automatically win. Why do lawyers try arguments that, to any reasonable person, shouldn't work? Because jury trials require a unanimous verdict (as recently confirmed by the Supreme Court) and a single juror can "hang" the verdict if they refuse to side with everyone else. This results in no guilty verdict and no not-guilty verdict, meaning that double jeopardy doesn't apply and the prosecutor can have another swing. Trying to perpetually hang the jury until the prosecutor gives up is an extremely risky tactic, but keep in mind: juries are not always made up of the smartest or most moral people. And if you want to hang the jury, you only need one person holdout. An associate of mine was on a murder jury that almost hung despite overwhelming evidence because, in regards to the defendant, "the bastard had it coming."

Granted, this isn't a tactic chosen by a lawyer and client who have a lot going for them: this is a last gasp desperation play when both the facts and the law are bearing down on you. It's a less refined version of defending someone on trial for murdering their parents by saying "Take pity on my client, he has just become an orphan." Also, most jurors find such an argument repellent. If someone were to make that argument to me to justify their actions, it would cause an internal crisis while I wondered "is hanging too good for them?" But, if it's almost certain that your client will be convicted anyway, and this argument has a non-zero chance of working, it doesn't shock me that people will try. Nor does this raise any legal ethical issues.

Now, on the topic of whether or not this sort of argument should be allowed, that's another issue entirely. Before rape shield laws, the victim's sexual past was fair game and defense attorneys would go after that like sharks at a feeding frenzy. This was eventually changed. One could certainly make the case that a law that restricted arguments that tried to blame underage victims (or any victims) for their own assault is a logical extension of such law. I think the pros and cons of it could be fairly debated, keeping in mind that the defense is entitled to try to rebut any assertion the prosecution or its witnesses make. But until such time as a law like that is passed, you're of course going to get lawyers who will make desperation plays like that.

To sum it up, the problem isn't lawyers who are willing to make these arguments, the problem is that in an adversarial system of justice, the defense is entitled to make arguments that may seem ridiculous but have at least a small amount of legal merit.
 

Gordon_4

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Well yes, that's the defense attorney. Their job is to try to present the evidence that paints the defendant in the best light. And some times, that means casting doubt on the victim in ways that moral people find reprehensible.
I doubt it’s a coincidence that lawyers can be found in the pub closest to the courtroom after a day’s lawyering.
 

Agema

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Because jury trials require a unanimous verdict (as recently confirmed by the Supreme Court) and a single juror can "hang" the verdict if they refuse to side with everyone else.
That's interesting. In England and Wales, they start at unanimous, but the judge has discretion to drop the bar to 10-2 if the jury are struggling to resolve the issue. Generally, I think this is a good idea: handing jurors de facto veto power (given they may not be very smart, responsible or ethical) poses risks.

In Scotland, I believe all that's required to declare someone guilty is a simple majority of 8 (15 jurors in Scottish cases).