New Vegas: Why Join the Legion?

[scorptatious]

I never could bring myself to join the Legion despite joining every other major faction in the game. I do find Caesar to be interesting though. Especially when you talk to him about how he started the Legion and his ideals.

 

[Vale]

I annihilated every settlement and murdered every companion I came across. I nuked both NCR and Legion in Lonesome Road, then sided with Yes Man. My karma was in the negative bajillions, so hey.
Burn Vegas, burn.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

So its either young upstarts who have no actual idea of what made the old world ideas work in the first place, or two strong men governments that won't last a single human generation. That's what it all boils down to. The only up side is that the legion is a bit more realistic in its expectations in regards to its world. It knows its a crude government for a crude world, and doesn't try to bullshit you into thinking its America 2.0.

That whole comment is well-put. Still, the NCR being terrible still leaves Yes-Man and an independent Vegas as an option, which seems to be the 'best'. It's a strong-man government, but you're the strong man, and you can live secure in the knowledge that no one can stop you and your robot army (which can be passed intact to your successor, without worrying about the army trying to seize power).

I beat the game last year, and this thought has been festering in my mind ever since: Why would you join Caesar's Legion?

Why would I? Or why would a person? Because I certainly wouldn't.

I meant why would you as a player.

The only people on the Legion's side you meet that aren't legionnaires are slaves

This isn't true at all. Dale Barton(who has no official affiliation with the legion) testifies to the fact that trade in Arizona is great because of Caesar. He doesn't have to bother with caravan guards because there are no raiders, the taxation is extremely low, and he doesn't have to be on his guards all the time.

I disregarded Dale as he wasn't actually a citizen of the Legion; he views safe roads as business and doesn't seem to care about the rest of the Legion's work in creating a new society. I could have worded that sentence better.

This seems major; after fighting raiders and mutant animals every step of the way across NCR-controlled Mojave, it would definitely make you notice if there was a place free from random encounters, where you could see citizens living outside of the fortified camps everyone else requires.

Why does seeing it make that much of a difference? The story isn't about Arizona, it's about Vegas and the Mojave. And you are told repeatedly by multiple non-biased and biased characters that Arizona does not have a raider problem.

You're also told repeatedly of the problems the NCR has back west. Did you ignore all that as well because you weren't allowed to go and physically talk to the politicians in Shady Sands?

You can see both sides of the NCR coin first-hand- You see the troops putting down raiders, and you meet corrupt soldiers who are selling supplies on the side and selling information to the enemy. You get to experience the benefits and drawbacks of NCR control. With the Legion, meanwhile, you only see them at their worst. You only see the ruins they leave behind of places where you could theoretically have gotten quests, traded for supplies, met interesting characters, etc. Supporting the Legion seems like it would only lead to less opportunities, rather than more. Having people tell you is all well and good, but until you actually experience it, 'raider-free land' is just as much a story as anything else in the Wasteland. The change in gameplay that moving about in a place free from raiders would cause would make a much better contrast than "Stories you are told vs. the entire world you live in".

Meanwhile, all the Legion seems to do is destroy (Nipton and Nelson being prime examples, as the first time you meet the Legion and the most obvious way to re-establish contact respectively).

Caesar's Legion is not Caesar's Rome. They are a military force with a tiny capital in Flagstaff. Basically they are more Mongolians to the NCRs China. They rove around in camps for the most part. This is part of Caesar's plan because he does not want to burden himself before he ends the conflict with the NCR. Because they are trying to maintain farms and build/maintain actual buildings he has been able to gain a military advantage. If you talk to him, he doesn't really believe his legion is a country. He wants it to become a country eventually, but he has to defeat the NCR first before he can start laying down the foundation for his new world.

I didn't reach that conversation branch (I only spoke with Caesar briefly on my way to resurrect the Securitrons). Still, do the majority of the people in Arizona live in these nomadic camps? It seems like the easiest way to show what Caesar's vision could be would have been to create a town-area next to Fortification Hill, a place that they had conquered on their way west which was now thriving under Caesar's rule.

And the biggest problem is the most obvious: the Legion is barbaric. Slavery, misogyny, crucifixion, genocide; everything that makes the Legion stand out makes them seem terrible to modern eyes.

*snipped up for space*
Slavery in actual proper historical Rome wasn't all that much more horrible than being a citizen. In fact a lot of them led pretty normal lives and basically acted just like servants...The legion slaves probably don't have it all that much worse than the settlers struggling to survive in a land filled with drug crazed raiders and a massive escaped convict problem... Life in the Mojave is not easy for anybody.

Crucifixion is pretty horrible but we do some horribly things in our modern society...You can argue that the people the legion does it to aren't bad guys but come on, don't argue that it's deplorable to the average modern person.

And I'm not sure what you mean by genocide. If you're speaking of the new definition, then the legion doesn't commit genocide. They leave part of the tribes alive and force them to join their legion.

Slaves might not lead a terrible life. We don't know, because the game doesn't show or tell us much about it. When someone says 'slavery', your mind jumps to a few possible locations: You think about the definitely horrible conditions of American slaves, or you may think about the Roman slaves (many of whom did function as highly educated teachers and servants, while many, many more were put to work in mines, as prostitutes, and as gladiators, living short and brutal lives in a system that was only sustainable due to the vast number of slaves brought in regularly from military conquests. Given the nature of the Legion (well-known for horrific punishments, rape and the like), it seems likely that slaves are viewed as expendable labour.

Crucifixion is deplorable, though; the game is written for modern audiences, which means that the writers must have thought about how to make the Legion seem viable to that audience. The entire karma system is based on ideals inherent to that audience (don't steal, don't kill innocents, don't lie), so they have to make the Legion's actions seem somewhat-reasonable to us. Long, legendarily painful executions is something that requires extraordinary support, and the Legion does it to anyone and everyone they dislike (while every other faction is fine with just shooting a person in the head and calling it a day).

I meant 'genocide' in the sense that they obliterate towns and tribes, occasionally leaving some people to join them. You hear that Caesar has 80-some tribes beholden to him, but you also hear that in conquering those tribes he kills thousands. As well, they seem quite determined to kill every member of the NCR they come in contact with.

IN SHORT:

I wouldn't say the legion is the best choice. The best choice is yes man(and hoping to God that yes man is actually who he says he is, and isn't a self aware robot who was playing you for a fool to gain power. Which the ending alludes to by his suddenly acting differently and going away to reprogram himself without your telling him to) and then supporting the Followers. But the NCR vs Legion is a lot more awash of an argument than you are making it be. The NCR will make the same mistakes that destroyed the old world, that much is obvious. The legion may be evil fucks, but they are at least trying to do something different in the hope that it will build a more stable and better world.

It's a good argument, but the game shows too much of the 'evil fucks' side and not enough of the 'building a better world'.

 

[Scarecrow]

Because they are interesting compared to the others. NCR and their Democracy dress up doll house and toy soldiers, Mr. House and "Imperial Capitalism: The planet", and Wild Card which is just all the other more interesting small factions bunched together.

It's also interesting to see the bad guys justify themselves and be able to do it fairly well. Long term stability at all costs, strength and fortification, and a society based on a time period in history we don't often see in games...at least games like NV.

 

[fezgod]

I haven't played New Vegas, but the gist I've gotten is.

Brotherhood, fanatics who are trying to do good but are ....fanatics.

NCR, normal idealism, corrupt, and ineffectual society.

Legion, survival of the fittest.

House, idealist, but keeps himself in power.

That about right?

Pretty much correct except the Brotherhood aren't trying to do good, they only want technology for themselves.

 

[Madman123456]

i always wondered where the Brotherhood would go after they have "achieved" their goals; if they have plenty of each futuristic weapon in stock, every power armor built up to the great war (they're trying to preserve old technology) and have everything filed and catalogued, will they just sit down and play tic-tac-toe for all eternity?
The Brotherhood chapter in D.C. kinda broke their mission statement a bit by helping the people of the Wasteland but if they where to institute a program in which they give out ammo, caps or projectile weapons in exchange for energy weapons, every waster would come to the Citadel with a wheel barrow full of laser pistols.

With the War against the Enclave, the D.C. Brotherhood grabbed more technology the the main chapter in Lost Hills ever had, so maybe they will have to build a giant wheelbarrow for Liberty Prime to push westwards

Mr. House in New Vegas has me a bit confused. He wants to go to space eventually. To do what exactly? And i doubt he has the foresight to do so, seeing that he can't even bring peace two blocks over to Freeside without just killing everyone who looks at him funny.

Yes man is a bit odd to me. Seems like i'd have the same freedoms and responsibilities if i made vegas another province of the ncr.

Which i do most of the time. The NCR have mostly nice People, this democracy has actually less red tape, bureaucracy and corruption to deal with then pretty much any democracy we live in today, so go NCR!

While the NCR is to good to be true, the legion is too evil. Lt. Boyd is rather "evil" when she contracts outside help (the player) to circumvent Laws against torture of prisoners. Which you then don't even have to do.

The Legion crucifies and enslaves people.

 

[optimusjamie]

I think this comes from the 'evil is cool' effect. It's not that they're seriously agreeing with what the Legion does (out of universe, obviously), but they like the idea of dressing up as Romans and being a Lawful Evil-type character.

 

[Joby Baumann]

I get the impression that Obsidian wanted to do more with the legion, but it got cut off by some thing. kind of a bummer. I think there are mods that better this though, I'll have to check.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Completionist mentality...

I haven't joined the legion yet, but I will because if I don't I'll feel empty inside.
Like there's a Legion shaped hole in my soul...

 

[balladbird]

cut for length

House subverts the weaknesses of the government of personality model by being, functionally, at any rate, immortal. His lack of a tangible body, as he stated, also makes him immune to the corrupting factors of excess or lust, and his regime, while totalitarian in terms of political control, is actually fairly liberal in terms of individual rights. (his "I could care less what they worship or what they do in their own homes" speech

Totally agree with your assessment of the NCR. Their value as an organization aside, they're primarily in the mojave to gather resources for their home. overextended, and quick to establish marshal law, whether they have the best idea for a long-range government isn't even an issue. they're by far not the best fit for the current mojave. that'd be house, in my opinion, for the reasons I outlined above.

I hear there was originally supposed to be a Legion-positive companion (maybe Joshua Graham), but their removal makes the Legion even harder to support.

Ulysses was originally conceived to be the legion-supportive companion, but was ultimately changed to being the primary antagonist of the overarching DLC. to be fair, if he HAD stayed in the main game, the legion would have had the hands-down most awesome companion of the lot.


finally addressing the OP. the only reason one would join the legion is if they want their courier to be that allegedly attractive mixture of evil, shortsighted, and somewhat stupid. multiple sources throughout the game repeatedly warn that Caesar's legion is inevitably going to implode upon itself, and that succeeding in taking the mojave will only make this happen faster. Even if you could argue that their very extreme lifestyle DID give their people security, the fact that they're a ticking time bomb makes it hard to justify joining them.

 

[ardias014]

...

I'll divide this into a few points.
1) The NCR does notice how important logistics are, but when you only have one route into the Mojave of course your logistics are going to be fucked up.
2) I know you say this within the next paragraph, but?. NEW VEGAS is NOT Van Buren. I know you may have wanted it, but you cannot substitute its lore into New Vegas.
3) What are you kidding? Have you looked at NCR units, all of their equipment is standardized. The service rifle may be a piece of crap but it is standardized. Also all of their armor is factory produced and made out of the same components; the only difference is that some of their armors have extra padding and personnel modification.
4) The NCR does have factories, they just don?t have any(besides the gun runner compound) in the Mojave, but considering its contested territory this is understandable.
5) See 3 and 4.
6) First of all, 1st Recon is not the best sniper group, that is the Rangers. Second, do you know why they are so poorly equipped? The NCR lost most of their supply train and army when the Divide exploded, so of course they are operating with sub-par weapons.
7) You mean their best armor is armor that was used to invade China during the initial stages of the U.S. invasion. It may have been shit for the time, but in the post-apocalypse the stuff is pretty impressive. Yes the T-51b may be better, but there isn?t that much of it lying around because it may have been produced in the West, but a lot of it was lost when the bombs fell and a lot of the suits were already deployed into China. Not even the Brotherhood has a lot lying around considering that they had to arm their men in the 45s.
8) Are you fucking kidding me? The NCR has culture, every nation has culture, just because you dislike it does not mean it does not exist or is not valid.
9) Ignoring the dam, the strip, the airport, and the ranger stations. And they do all of this with very little supply in unfriendly territory they have only held for five years.
10) NO real nation ever has had an end game besides continue to exist. The legion does not have an endgame besides driving West and that is not an endgame. Also WW1 strategy, if you had not noticed, is not strategy it?s attrition. Also WW2 didn?t use new strategy, it used old strategy that was adapted to new tech. Instead of going off on a tangent lets actually compare NCR and Legion Strategy.
Legion: Frontal Assault with the entire legion into heavily fortified positions that actually use guns and armor instead of football padding and lawn care equipment.
NCR: Wow we are really strapped for supplies so let?s hunker down.
Both are stupid, but directly assaulting an army that has guns with a iron age army is the dumbest thing ever.
11) So they are not working when they are simultaneously expanding in three directions while facing the entire Midwest with only one semi-open caravan route and less than half of their army which is under equipped due to the explosion that took most of the NCR with it.
12/13) So the one strong point in the Legion's favor is that they have a strong leader. WOOOHOOO we have one capable person leading us, we must be the best thing on the damn planet. Do you know what the problem with strong man leadership is? IT DOESNT LAST. This is due to the fact that: people die. Just because a nation has a strong leader at one point, does not mean they will last. Strongman government is not a form of government it is a periodical in every government. The NCR had Tandy, the Legion has Ceaser, the Eastern Brotherhood has Lyons. In real life places: England had Elizabeth, the HRE had Charles V, the Russians had Peter, Mali had Mansa Musa. Let us look at where these powers are now: England has lost its empire and is no longer as relevant as it was, the HRE ceased to exist, Russia's government suffered through centuries of political corruption, and Mali fell multiple times and was conquered by France.
Also the Legion is not more realistic in any way. They seek to cleanse the world of amorality when they themselves break their own moral code. They seek to destroy infrastructure and instead try to substitute it with mass slavery. They think they can win a gun fight with swords. None of these are realistic. Also their form of government, isn?t a government, it is a cult of personality. The only thing that is keeping the legion going is the Frumentarii.
Reasons not to play the legion:
a) They bastardized a failed society and use it as a government.
b) Everyone hates them. Something that never works well (ex. Nazis)
c) Caesar is the only thing holding them together.
d) They are sexist bastards.
e) They ignorant luddites.
f) Very few members of it actually fight for the Legion, they fight for Caesar.
g) All they do is loot and burn and threaten to loot and burn.

 

[loc978]

They're the challenge faction. You want the hardest playthrough possible while having the option to be completely, unambiguously evil? Then the legion is for you.

That's my next playthrough, when I get around to it. Scorched earth policy with nothing but melee weapons and explosives.

As for any argument for the legion being "good for the wasteland"... The NCR may be making the mistakes that toppled the US, but Caesar is making many of the mistakes that toppled Rome. The Legion wouldn't be able to survive the infighting that would be caused by his death while dealing with outside forces. Caesar's legion and its peaceful lands are a house of cards resting upon Caesar's life.

 

[Octorok]

If you are talking about Nipton they did it because it was a town full of thieves and prostitutes. The mayor was trying to sell out both the NCR and the Powder Gangers to the Legion to make some money and save his own ass. Even the NCR refer to the town as a shithole and a den of corruption. The entire towns existence went against everything the legion stood for.

actually nipton wasnt really in legion territory, it seemed to be set up as a mid point between the two and thats why it was hit. to send a message to settlements in ncr territory. yes towns are extremely rare but i can see the brutal understanding behind it. destroy one, word spreads, the rest surrender when the legion arrives

its a risky tactic though it could quite easiely breed a guerilla movement

Nipton was not Legion territory, and it stood for everything they were against. Why the fuck would they not burn it down? Why did you even assume that? The Legion has few settlements on the west side of the river, and those are all military outposts.

Ah, there was some confusion - when I referred to Legion territory, I meant the future towns the Legion hopes to frighten by destroying Nipton. As in - their strategy is to use fear to keep other towns in line, but in reality this just causes them to fear Legion control.

And a large part of that is the fact that they basically sacked Nipton for three reasons:

1) It's how the Legion supplies themselves and keeps supplies away from their enemies. They raid a location or caravan and take everything they want. This is a completely unsustainable policy, and is basically what I meant by them being to prepared to sacrifice any long-term stability for short-term gains. I get that they don't believe in capitalism, but trade between settlements is what keeps the towns going.

2) By demonstrating the brutal punishments they are prepared to use if you break Legion law (in this case running a town deemed immoral and using it to trade with the enemy), they intended to frighten other towns into line. Firstly, I believe this was a waste of resources, but also I do not believe that this would work. Towns, while they should fear the approach of the Legion, would never feel at all torn in their loyalties. People in what is to be Legion territory would hate them. Ruling by fear is not sustainable.

3) Ideological conflict, in which the Legion decide to destroy Nipton as an example of immorality, in their eyes. It's been said that it had a self-interested mayor, and more importantly -

"Nipton was a wicked place, debased and corrupt. It served all comers, as long as they paid. Powder Gangers, Profligate troops, men of the Legion such as myself. The people here didn't care. It was a town of whores." - Vulpes Inculta. (Source)

A place where the town economy is based on trade with multiple factions, prostitution, and gambling (without adequate law enforcement to prevent crime). These are not traits unique to Nipton. With the exception of the mayor, the properties of Nipton that made it "debased" are also properties of New Vegas itself.

This is not a valid reason to remove a town that was prepared to "join" your faction (I know the mayor was just selling out to the Legion for personal gain, but fear motivated him, and Nipton would have become a Legion-controlled outpost). If Legion law is that any town with corruption, prostitution, gambling, or crime is to be destroyed then they are going to have to destroy just about every Mojave settlement around.

Nipton didn't "stand" for anything. It wasn't an ideological defiance of the Legion cult, it was simply the kind of town you get in unstable areas without proper policing and government. Vulpes Inculta is so indoctrinated that he is unable to appreciate the long-term advantages of keeping Nipton alive, and would rather destroy it because its "morals" disgust him. I hope you can see why, even for an evil character, this is an unsustainable policy.

 

[johntheescapist]

The Legion content was cut due to lack of time. It's a shame really. J E Sawyer one of the game developers described Legion lands pretty well on formspring a while back. You should take a look around for his comments if you want a feel for life in Arizona.

 

[BakaSmurf]

i always wondered where the Brotherhood would go after they have "achieved" their goals; if they have plenty of each futuristic weapon in stock, every power armor built up to the great war (they're trying to preserve old technology) and have everything filed and catalogued, will they just sit down and play tic-tac-toe for all eternity?
The Brotherhood chapter in D.C. kinda broke their mission statement a bit by helping the people of the Wasteland but if they where to institute a program in which they give out ammo, caps or projectile weapons in exchange for energy weapons, every waster would come to the Citadel with a wheel barrow full of laser pistols.

With the War against the Enclave, the D.C. Brotherhood grabbed more technology the the main chapter in Lost Hills ever had, so maybe they will have to build a giant wheelbarrow for Liberty Prime to push westwards

Probably to war, if not with themselves over who gets to sit on what tech, then the wasteland as a whole. The east coast Brotherhood as a whole openly has a fairly low opinion of 'outsiders' and would likely wind up going the way of the Enclave once they acquired the fire power to do so and realized they need another goal to keep from seizing up and ceasing to exist... Which they're already well on their way to doing anyways. One less group of isolationist, xenophobic technophiles? No big loss there in my opinion.

Mr. House in New Vegas has me a bit confused. He wants to go to space eventually. To do what exactly? And i doubt he has the foresight to do so, seeing that he can't even bring peace two blocks over to Freeside without just killing everyone who looks at him funny.

House wants to colonize other planets, which would likely include terraformation, a process for which the technology exists somewhere in a VaultTec server room, just waiting to be rediscovered, assuming he doesn't just decide to reverse-engineer a G.E.C.K. that must be sitting in a dilapidated Vault somewhere that is. This demonstrates remarkable vision and ambition on House's part, and unlike the NCR, whom I seriously doubt would even be able to maintain a hold on the Mojave for very long (it's repeatedly stated that they simply do not have the man power to keep expanding at the rate they have been, and can't even keep the roads in their damned undisputed territory Raider free), House actually gives adequate reason to believe he could achieve his goals with his astonishing ability at playing probability (he was off on his estimates on the date of the nuclear war by but a single day, and even so spared Las Vegas and the vast majority of the Mojave desert from nuclear devastation without the help of the platinum chip). House may be the most egotistical fuck in the Mojave, but unlike most he's more then earned his egotism.

Yes man is a bit odd to me. Seems like i'd have the same freedoms and responsibilities if i made vegas another province of the ncr.

Which i do most of the time. The NCR have mostly nice People, this democracy has actually less red tape, bureaucracy and corruption to deal with then pretty much any democracy we live in today, so go NCR!

The red tape, bureaucracy, and corruption they DO have to deal with is excessive for the world they live in though, not to mention how very VERY incompetently run their entire government is. With the lack of natural resources that modern governments and civilizations have to work with a post-apocalyptic variant just can't afford to suffer that kind of stupidity in the long term.

While the NCR is to good to be true, the legion is too evil. Lt. Boyd is rather "evil" when she contracts outside help (the player) to circumvent Laws against torture of prisoners. Which you then don't even have to do.

Yes, the NCR is too good to be true, seeing as how all signs point towards them having to eventually abandon any footholds they may gain in the Mojave due to them simply lacking the man power or bureaucratic competence to maintain a government or military force there.

The Legion crucifies and enslaves people.

Which, according to the one trader we encounter that mostly works in Legion territory, has led to him being able to actually move between settlements completely on his own without worrying about hiring guards, in stark contrast to NCR trading routes, wherein one can leave town with an entire fucking platoon of men and still likely wind up food for the buzzards after the Raiders are done with you. I agree with you on the slavery portion though.

 

[MrSuperman]

I really liked the idea of the Legion when I began playing. But after seeing them throw spears against men with guns, and meeting Caesar himself... I killed him immediately. It was an Independent Vegas for me and Mr House.

 

[Doom972]

I think that they were supposed to represent order at the expense of freedom, but they just came off as psychotic.
I tried to make a believable character that would want to join the legion and I couldn't think of someone who isn't mentally ill.

These guys dress and talk like roman soldiers (delusional), use melee weapons even when faced with gun-wielding enemies (suicidal) and crucify people (sociopath) - Regardless of the ideals they represent, I don't know what sane person would ally himself with the legion.

 

[Xanadu84]

The reason you can join the legion, beyond a gleeful deconstruction of everything moral, is to lend weight to your choice to NOT join the legion. The fact that it is possible to become a monster makes the fact that you DON'T more significant, because you actively made that choice rather being railroaded into it. It's similar to the choice you make regarding the interracial couple at the beginning of Bioshock Infinite. The choice to do what is right has a larger impact when the choice to do what is wrong presents itself as well.