New Vegas: Why Join the Legion?

[kingthrall]

I joined Ceasars legion the 2nd playthough (yesman first). I think it was kind of fun to join Ceasars legion and go around smashing NCR. It seems strange that a lot of players think that keeping onto the old modern societal traditions after nuke fire ect is some sort of "good guy" thing.
I remember watching the film the postman and thinking the same thing about how the bad guys got so offended at the very idea of America causing all the war in the first place, when there is opportunity to shape the world as they see fit. Even if they don't use technology its not like people dont know how to enjoy building a fire and toasting meat on a stick?


Video for reference to what I am talking about. Good film by the way if you have not watched it.

 

[xplosive59]

The Legion has essentially a "drastic times need drastic measures" mentality and I think they are the only group that would actually get shit done in rejuvinating the wasteland. It is essentially would you support a Lawful Evil but powerful and secure Autocracy led by the Caesars Legion or a Chaotic Good and corrupt democracy from the NCR that it really comes down to in the end.

 

[Odbarc]

I think the three choices were supposed to be;

>Freedom minus security (Good)
>Security minus freedom (Good?)
>Ruin everything. (Bad!)

Sometimes, especially me, I like to cause havoc, chaos, and an overall arching 'evil' playstyle. Killing innocent people, doing things which boon humanity, ensure that the poverty stricken must reward me more so they have less. Giving the bad guys control is just one of those choices you want to have in a game like this, even if you almost never want to choose it.

Otherwise you're simply stuck with the obvious choice and then you'd say "Why option B?" and you'd be stuck in a strict linear path.

Frankly, I'd have wanted a "I want to monopolize the thing for myself and become a tyrant over the land!" option.

 

[johntheescapist]

The reason the tunnelers are different is because they can easily kill all of the animals you previously mentioned, they breed at extremely fast rates compared to all others, and they specificly hunt down humans unlike deathclaws which tend to stay on the fringes. The only way the NCR could hold the Mojave is if they use House's robot army after he died. The Legion being made up of only men would stand no chance of holding the Mojave.

 

[zf6hellion]

I think you're absolutely right. I love that New Vegas tried to move away from Fallout 3's morality system, but it shot itself in the foot by making the Legion objectively morally reprehensible, as well as a highly impractical faction.

You basically covered the two major problems with the Legion. Their "no tech" mentality is really just stupid, and doesn't reflect the Roman attitudes that they are trying to emulate. Really, a militaristic hierarchy like theirs, based on keeping order through conquest, should value the military power and practical day-to-day benefit of technology.

This also had me really confused, as I remember reading that the Romans weren't all that amazing themselves in a fight, they just happened to be really damn good at taking their enemies gear an' adapting to it. Where as the Legion are handicapping themselves with only the elite of the elite using anything major (Which amounts to a couple of crappy rifles and sub machine guns and a power fist).

 

[12344127]

I think you're absolutely right. I love that New Vegas tried to move away from Fallout 3's morality system, but it shot itself in the foot by making the Legion objectively morally reprehensible, as well as a highly impractical faction.

You basically covered the two major problems with the Legion. Their "no tech" mentality is really just stupid, and doesn't reflect the Roman attitudes that they are trying to emulate. Really, a militaristic hierarchy like theirs, based on keeping order through conquest, should value the military power and practical day-to-day benefit of technology.

This also had me really confused, as I remember reading that the Romans weren't all that amazing themselves in a fight, they just happened to be really damn good at taking their enemies gear an' adapting to it. Where as the Legion are handicapping themselves with only the elite of the elite using anything major (Which amounts to a couple of crappy rifles and sub machine guns and a power fist).

What made the Romans good in war was there sense of order and tactics. The idea of having a legion system with Centurions in each cohort made it so that everything was in precise order and it became a machine. The Romans didn't have that much more technology than say the Carthaginians in the First/Second Punic Wars but it was there tactics and strong infrastructure that led them to victory (although the second time was almost a really big failure because of elephants but I digress). What made the Legion upsetting to me was that they almost seemed like they made a mockery of everything Rome stood for. Rome stood for order, stability and power. The Legion on the other hand was out to destroy and plunder and Rome really didn't do that as much. Their crucifixions most of the time were to send other populations a message not to rebel. After the Spartacus rebellion for instance the rebelling slaves were crucified but not out of some sick twisted punishment it was all a message. Caesars Legion modeled themselves after Rome even naming themselves and their army members after the actual military ranks but they never showed any semblance of order or tactics other than rush in and crush the enemy.

 

[ardias014]

...

1. Their main routes were train rails, which I constantly see in ruins and open to attack The divide has been gone for a while, and the NCR should have recovered.

2. I said it wasn't the same exactly, but in the same SPIRIT. They are over extended and lacking resources. Hell, even the part about NCR money being as worthless as pre war money was in there, but for different reasons. New vegas was based on Van Buren's left over notes with changes made. That's it.

3. Actually no, their equipment is not standard. Its salvaged.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/NCR_trooper

Due to logistical boondoggles, standardization is out. Hell, I am seeing references from soldiers that all you get is the armor, which is a thin piece of metal or leather, and your gun is most likely the one you hold now. The first recon even says their hunting rifle is used because its what the country folk use before they were conscripted. Sterling even says that hunting rifles are standard in first recon, and they raised doubts over his level action sniper.

4. When California has more t-51Bs than anything, there is little excuse. California has plenty of military armories, all filled with the best tech around. California has the hub of the resource wars, there is no shortage of left overs. If there was EVER a piece of land to carve out a nation from, its California by virtue of how much military presence there was. The amount of armories would be enough to outfit the NCR's troops ten times over.

5. And yet their position is easily over run, as the ranger station south of Novac points out. Their hold on the land is tenuous at best, as the rangers point out they don't have any men to actually intercept anything the legion does. Holding a bunch of outposts is meaningless if they do nothing but to tell everyone else how they can't do anything and how they are sitting around and waiting to die.

6. Every nation has some sort of end game for wars and difficulties. They all have goals, and plans to achieve those goals. The NCR doesn't beyond "annex this." There is no planning, no thought, just a blind zerg rush.

7. The NCR isn't really all that equipped to deal with anything, and the legion is known to have things like thermic lances and even super sledges. Those are pre war weapons, and even power fists were used. Melee weaponry was still viable due to the technology if you had the armor. Legionaries are known to have bits of power armor, and it isn't the first time tribals use broken power armor either. The recruits are easy to kill, but so are the NCR troops.

That's the reason the legion still stand a chance. They beat barbarians, and their sheer dedication and kamikaze tactics scare the crap out of anyone who fights them. Since NCR troops are starved, lacking in actual weaponry, and low in morale it make sense the legion still stands a chance. The service rifle itself was in the same vein as the rifles in the imperial guard from Warhammer. They were generally weak by themselves, but they shine with numbers with huge accurate firing lines which the NCR rely on. A tactic that is sure to kill most of your military when half of them route the moment they see any combat. Its the Warhammer 40k Imperial Guard syndrome.

They don't any actual tactics to use beyond the 1700s level zerg rush strategy. WWI may be attrition based, but their tactics are laughable because of how irregular their officers are and how none of them can work together. Different ideas of leadership with little in the way of support is not a way to run an army.

8. I said the only upside to the legion is that its actually more realistic to what it is, a crude government for a crude world. I even said strong men governments always die, but their only strength was that they don't even try bullshitting you into thinking it will be everything America was and more.

House is insane if he thinks he can restart everything and get to space. He only sees the past.
The NCR lacks the motivation and the infrastructure to hold up an actual modern society. They see the future but not the present.
The Legion is preoccupied with the world as it was instead of looking to the future. They see the present and not the future.

1) They should have recovered! What are they going to do, patch the nuclear irradiated pit? O, I know they will build a giant sky bridge over the Rockies.

2)Yes, but it is not Van Buren, I was just making sure because a lot of people tend to use Van Buren as a basis for arguements.

3)Actually that article does say it is standard. "An average soldier in the NCR army is issued with a service rifle. A 9mm pistol is provided as a sidearm. Given its reliability, ease of manufacture, and firepower, the service rifle is ideal for the grueling war in the Mojave."

4)Except not really. Even the Brotherhood is running out of them as is clearly stated when you join them in New Vegas. Its been 100 years and the suits that weren't already deployed to China are running out. They may be able to resist tank shells, but its been 100 years of looting and fighting and those things are damn hard to repair.

6)Uh no, nations do not really have end games for wars and when they do they usually fail(See Schlieffen plan/War of the Ring). Military strategy should adapt as the war changes, you shouldn't have just one final plan. Even with terrible NCR leadership and strategy, NCR is still winning because the Legion sucks. There only solution to the fight is dogpile an enemy with guns while the Frumentarii are rushing to make the idea viable because they are smart enough to realize the strategy won't work.

7)The Broken armor that the centurions wear is total crap and goes over quicker than the ncr shock-troop armor which you said was shit. Also their most powerful weapons are pre-war construction equipment. I'd personally take a weapon that can knock you off a hundred yards away than a rusty old welding device.

OT)Also I'm glad to see you like to shit on the Imperial Guard while knowing nothing about them and their equipment. Their "flashlight" is often made out as shit(mainly because people compare it to the bolter which is effectively a rapid fire missle launcher)even though it can spontaneously incinerate humanflesh. And also the Imperial guard doesn't always revolve around WW1 save for the Vostroyans and Krieg Death Corp, the rest use modern day squad based tactics.

OT2: Electric Bogaloo)1700s strategy in no way shape or form involved zerg rushing. In no period of history was zerg rushing a viable strategy(See Hastings and Carrhae). Instead of just using personnel bias and conjecture, actually study it.

8)Just because the government is crude, doesn't make it appropriate for the times. The crudeness of it is irrelevant as long as it is effective and the legion's government isn't effective.
Also being shortsighted isn't a good model for any government.

 

[ace_of_something]

duh-doy. You play as the legion if you want to be the bad guy.

 

[b.w.irenicus]

My main issue with the Legion is, that it only revolves arounf Caesar. He's really the only reason his horde keeps together, if he dies, the Legion probably falls apart in the long run.
Other than that, I think they are an interesting faction.

 

[Matthew Ryan]

I played Legion maybe once, It's for Evil types.

I'd say that the NCR is actually the Lawful Evil, CL would be Chaotic Evil, NCR is a corrupt bumbling government, and their promise of "democracy and freedom" never fooled me. They're anything but Good.

Plus their pathetic conscript army makes good target practice.

I usually "Role-played" as some kind of insane hermit who was hated by both the major factions, and I'd only work with the secondary factions like BOS. Legion and NCR both have too many faults.

Legion is a fun challenge though, and if you're a high leveled melee character, you can really cause some damage in NCR ranks, I think when I played Legion though, I just waltzed around as some Legion Gun for hire, Following Legion troops into battle and then ducking behind rocks and sniping NCR, causes a lot of chaos when NCR is actually losing men from range, and then get swamped by a bunch of linebackers with machetes.

I might play FONV now, I havent turned it on in a while heres hoping it doesnt explode. That engine was always unstable and unfriendly with even the slightest modification.

 

[5ilver]

It would be fine if they had grenade launchers... but they don't. It's like the dev team had a lot of Legion fans and someone upstairs decided that wasn't cool so they made some changes until NOBODY felt pro-legion.

 

[5ilver]

duh-doy. You play as the legion if you want to be the bad guy.

That's the thing though. If you wanted to "be a bad guy", there are so many other- BETTER ways to be one. You can join Elijah and enslave the entire planet (or kill him and do it yourself, which is never given as an option for some reason), you can use the Divide's nukes to flatten *EVERYONE*, you can tell the boomers everybody outside is racist towards them and watch the fireworks, you can use House's robot army to do whatever you feel like.

There are so many alternatives, all of them better. Realistically, the Legion wouldn't even allow you to use a rifle. Hell, they would probably kill you first chance they get as they deem you too dangerous.

It's not so much the "bad guy" choice as it is the "stupidest, most pointless" choice.

 

[J Tyran]

In a video game world the Legion has some interesting aspects to its story, Ceaser wasn't just a mad man either. One thing to remember is that the state of the Legion was transitory at the time the Courier steps in, Ceaser didn't intend for it stay as it was. He wanted to conquer New Vegas and then settle down and create a genuine empire.

The Roman Empire also got a lot right, it lasted longer than Western Civilization has so far and outlasted the fictional Western Civilization in the Fallout world. As well as the brutality it had art, culture and organisation. The NCR was as rotten with corruption as the governments that died when the bombs fell and as smart and as brilliant as Mr House was he was bonkers with it.

In a video game context there was a lot to explore as none of the options where really the right ones, the NCR wasn't above treating people cruelly either. Look how the acted towards the people in Freeside, some of the poorest and worst off people in the Mojave.

 

[12344127]

In a video game world the Legion has some interesting aspects to its story, Ceaser wasn't just a mad man either. One thing to remember is that the state of the Legion was transitory at the time the Courier steps in, Ceaser didn't intend for it stay as it was. He wanted to conquer New Vegas and then settle down and create a genuine empire.

The Roman Empire also got a lot right, it lasted longer than Western Civilization has so far and outlasted the fictional Western Civilization in the Fallout world. As well as the brutality it had art, culture and organisation. The NCR was as rotten with corruption as the governments that died when the bombs fell and as smart and as brilliant as Mr House was he was bonkers with it.

In a video game context there was a lot to explore as none of the options where really the right ones, the NCR wasn't above treating people cruelly either. Look how the acted towards the people in Freeside, some of the poorest and worst off people in the Mojave.

That depends do you count Byzantium as the Roman Empire or not. Other than that I agree with what you said. NCR is really shown to be incompetent to say the least. They are unorganized, corrupted and really just want absolute control for the sack of bringing back 'Merica. The ironic part is they dont even represent the real Old World in Fallout canon I would say the BoS has a leg up on them. Regardless the Legion could have been better yes, but it can still be enjoyable especially when u give Arcade to Caesar. "Victrix causa deis placuit sed victa Catoni"

 

[redmoretrout]

I joined the Legion my first playthrough, I just looked at the situation cynically and jumped on the winning side.

 

[Octorok]

This also had me really confused, as I remember reading that the Romans weren't all that amazing themselves in a fight, they just happened to be really damn good at taking their enemies gear an' adapting to it. Where as the Legion are handicapping themselves with only the elite of the elite using anything major (Which amounts to a couple of crappy rifles and sub machine guns and a power fist).

While I wouldn't agree with any analysis that didn't credit Roman soldiers with fighting ability (their strength in battle came largely from drills and hardcore training as a unit), their ability to adapt and use new tactics was absolutely vital. It's really less about the fact that people with rifles tend to defeat people with machetes in a 1v1 fight, and more about the strategic and ideological problems with discarding technology in New Vegas' world.

The theory goes something like - "The use of robots and technology in combat weakens men. We value personal strength in combat. Therefore, we must not use robots or technology." This means that they refuse to use medical science, in or out of a combat context. In the world of Fallout, androids and biological augmentation are shown to exist, and medicine can easily save people who still have something to offer the Legion besides combat prowess. Medical and biological science is just one of their failures in this regard, but it serves as a good example of the Legion damaging itself on a massive scale.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

SNIP It knows its a crude government for a crude world, and doesn't try to bullshit you into thinking its America 2.0.

Yeah it just bullshits you into thinking its rome 2.0

Because things went so well for rome.

Basically any government that uses slavery automatically opens itself up to so much fucked up shit (rape, murder, separation of families, forced labor) that I wouldn't support it for anything other than lolz.

Yeah the NCR is still best in my opinions, they handle a lot of delicate situations like shit, they underplay all their major advantages, they invest too little into tech (some random fucking company a bit outside vegas makes guns that are higher quality than any of their shit, and they're a fucking legit COUNTRY with probably hundreds of thousands of people to draw taxes from), but I'm still gonna go with the democracy and they're the only ones hiring.

And thats the other point. According to the lore California is now basically a stable country, with a (relatively) huge population, a stable infrastructure, education and safety. An actual country with a respectable population. Yeah it's not perfect, but that's an ENORMOUS step forward in the fallout verse. It means that the world isn't one accident away from everyone dying. It's actually starting to recover.

Yeah house is good. For fucking vegas. Only vegas, he can't imaginably extend his control outside of it, being a singular freaking person. Then there's the rest of the world. And if the NCR gains vegas thats a huge boost in power they can use to civilize to world. Because most of it is still basically crap, with slavery and raiders and shit.

So the NCR is kind of shit, but it's less shit than anything else that's being offered.

And hey, at least it tries. In all of the chaos of the world, they actually to be a regular non-discriminating democracy. Which would work FINE if the weren't doing everything wrong.

 

[barbzilla]

Snipped for verbosity

Thanks Holmes, You have managed to sum up everything I intended to say in a tight little package (I would have been even longer saying the same things).

I think many people missed some of the more subtle points that are being made in FONV. It is literally showing us a bunch of ineffectual forms of rule, an effectual form of rule (albeit at the cost of morality), and the choices one person has to make as far as who will succeed. When I was role playing my first character in NV, I played as an intelligent charismatic diplomat type. I was lawful neutral (I didn't get involved in the moral obligations, only in the actual manifestation of a country likely to succeed) and didn't know what faction to support (in character). I went around and did a few things for every faction in the game to see who would have my support, and I couldn't see any of the factions as potential countries (for many of the reasons Mycroft mentions).

The NCR was too busy scrabbling for power, they are forgetting the people they are supposedly protecting. This means that as expansion takes place, the earlier conquered territories have become nothing more than resources for them. They will fall apart the further away the NCR gets from them, and will end up joining another faction or going anarchist. So with the NCR being concerned about power, what would an intelligent diplomat think about such practices? Well i would feel that as the system grows it will continue to corrupt to the point that war starts all over again fresh.

Legion has a very solid foundation laid for their civilization. This is about survival of the fittest, and when dealing with early civilization, this technique is crucial if you want to actually gain any ground. On top of that, Caesar goes out of his way to ensure that war is personal for every one of his soldiers. Every soldier is subjected to the horrors of war up close and personal (melee weapons) to teach them that while war is necessary, it is not necessary to fight without a very solid cause. As for how they treat women, well we are talking about borderline savages who have been mentally corrupted through the horrors of war. This is how war went during that time frame, that doesn't make it right by any means, and I find it abhorrent, but to them it serves purpose. The bottom line is, Caesar could actually manage to build something out of this land. I just don't know if that something fits in with what I want to see happen.

House is nothing more than a greedy corporate pig who didn't want to give up on overindulging himself, so he made himself immortal. His vision of the desert and NV is one that is very grim. He envisions major corporations running the land with the iron fist of money. He wants to use an army of super vigilant robots with AI in the most Orwellian Plot device to date in this game. How many people want to play slot machines 1984 style?

So given my choices, I went for my own path. I did missions for each faction, and looked for ways to weaken them from the inside while I do my work. When it came down to the last battle I was a quadruple agent. I was ME first and foremost, being worried about my own political career. 2nd was my loyalty to the NCR and all it stands for, 3rd was as a Legionnaire hiding in the NCR ranks as a double agent. All the while running my 4th con to House. Did I forget to mention that the artillery and bombers are under my control, and not the NCRs.

I was Hired by house to find out about the NCR and the Legion (of course I killed him after getting myself ingrained in their worlds), so I got myself ingrained with the Caesar as one of his most trusted men, and then offered to keep an eye on the NCR from the inside. I did this and moved through the ranks high enough to be trusted with high profile secrets about where high profile people would be residing. And I had a final few things to set up for myself.

Once the battle went underway, i sabotaged the NCRs heavy hitting ranged weapons and mounts allowing the Legion an easy run to get into melee range. While those two were fighting it out, I had Yesman summon my robots to wipe up the last bits of battle still going on. I then held a high counsel on the dam. The two great leaders and myself discussing the future of the wasteland. I gave them both the opportunity to walk away, and paid my price to Caesar for the betrayal in the form of peaceful trading for supplies. I also offered him an alliance if needed. I sent them both their own separate ways when whatshisname from the NCR decided that I didn't have what it takes to run the wasteland and NV. I politely put a gun to his head and said " Maybe I do, Maybe I do not. What I do have though, is a willingness to try for something different, something that actually benefits the people. A country dedicated to peace through force.

As that soldier walked away he made some vague threat about coming back in 20 years with a full contingent of NCR Rangers. I smiled at him and simply said sorry. When asked about that comment, it was later shown that I said I am sorry I will be forced to kill even more of my fellow man. If you should come in peace though, you will be welcomed with open arms.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I haven't played New Vegas, but the gist I've gotten is.

Brotherhood, fanatics who are trying to do good but are ....fanatics.

NCR, normal idealism, corrupt, and ineffectual society.

Legion, survival of the fittest.

House, idealist, but keeps himself in power.

That about right?

Pretty much. With the legion there's the misogyny angle which doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and has nothing to do with anything, but other then that pretty much.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I joined the Legion my first playthrough, I just looked at the situation cynically and jumped on the winning side.

The winning side is entirely dependant on who you join.

Like it always is.