Newton Residents Vote to Tear Down Sandy Hook Elementary, Rebuild for $50 Million

[Evil Smurf]

Is there any rational reason that they're like that? The one time I've asked my American classmates about these gun issues the discussion devolved into a cacophony of (almost) shouting (because this was like 30 seconds before our 10 minute break was over) before I could even finish my question. I understand that my outsider view of Americans is inherently distorted from what they really are, but that incident didn't exactly help their case.

There's plenty of rational reasons for being against gun control, typically ranging from a general dislike of what is seen as government interference in private affairs to taking umbrage at being compared with the people willing to shoot up a school to a fundamental belief in the correctness of the ideas expressed by the US Constitution.

The problem is that everyone on both sides is so sure that their way is correct and that the other side is willfully getting people killed that whenever the topic is brought up, everyone immediately defaults to an incredibly hostile bristling against the (real or imagined) incoming slights.

We can still buy guns in Australia, I've got friends that go shooting. I'd limit the guns allowed to banning the sale of semi automatic and automatic weapons. A limit of 5 guns per person, having ammo and the guns kept in separate locked boxes with a metal health check and history of violence/criminal activity check before the registration of a (mandatory) gun licence.

This is pretty much exactly what we have in the States. The only difference is that (in most states) there's no limit, semi-automatics are legal to purchase and you don't generally need to keep the ammo and gun in different containers.

Having a limit of guns per person is kinda silly though, to be perfectly honest. Anyone that's going to shoot up some place isn't going to be carrying around more than 1 or 2. Guns, especially the rifles typically used for that kind of thing, are big, unwieldy things and carrying more than a couple is pretty much impossible if you want to be able to actually use one.

So when I become Obama The President, not much in the way of guns will change then.

 

[Ryotknife]

Is there any rational reason that they're like that? The one time I've asked my American classmates about these gun issues the discussion devolved into a cacophony of (almost) shouting (because this was like 30 seconds before our 10 minute break was over) before I could even finish my question. I understand that my outsider view of Americans is inherently distorted from what they really are, but that incident didn't exactly help their case.

There's plenty of rational reasons for being against gun control, typically ranging from a general dislike of what is seen as government interference in private affairs to taking umbrage at being compared with the people willing to shoot up a school to a fundamental belief in the correctness of the ideas expressed by the US Constitution.

The problem is that everyone on both sides is so sure that their way is correct and that the other side is willfully getting people killed that whenever the topic is brought up, everyone immediately defaults to an incredibly hostile bristling against the (real or imagined) incoming slights.

We can still buy guns in Australia, I've got friends that go shooting. I'd limit the guns allowed to banning the sale of semi automatic and automatic weapons. A limit of 5 guns per person, having ammo and the guns kept in separate locked boxes with a metal health check and history of violence/criminal activity check before the registration of a (mandatory) gun licence.

This is pretty much exactly what we have in the States. The only difference is that (in most states) there's no limit, semi-automatics are legal to purchase and you don't generally need to keep the ammo and gun in different containers.

Having a limit of guns per person is kinda silly though, to be perfectly honest. Anyone that's going to shoot up some place isn't going to be carrying around more than 1 or 2. Guns, especially the rifles typically used for that kind of thing, are big, unwieldy things and carrying more than a couple is pretty much impossible if you want to be able to actually use one.

So when I become Obama The President, not much in the way of guns will change then.

I think you overestimate how much power the President has

 

[Ryotknife]

...

See, it's obvious how retardedly wasteful this idea is. But, I'm kind of wondering... why is this coming to light now, nearly a year after the shooting?

If it being the site of a shooting were so intensely traumatizing for the community in a timeless sense, wouldn't they have wanted to... do this earlier?

I don't fucking get it. This is dumb. This is so dumb. Did Virginia Tech get torn down and rebuilt? Or... y'know, any other school that witnessed a shooting ever since the dawn of time?

$50 million.

$50 million.

according to a committee overlooking this issue:

"Analysis of the renovate vs. build new by the Advisory Committee showed that costs to renovate this 56 year old building, bring it up to code, eliminate the portables, make it energy efficient, provide necessary safety features, and more, generated a cost almost at the same level of new building construction."

Assuming what they say to be true, then building a new school makes sense.

A lot has changed in building codes in the past 50 years.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Is there any rational reason that they're like that? The one time I've asked my American classmates about these gun issues the discussion devolved into a cacophony of (almost) shouting (because this was like 30 seconds before our 10 minute break was over) before I could even finish my question. I understand that my outsider view of Americans is inherently distorted from what they really are, but that incident didn't exactly help their case.

There's plenty of rational reasons for being against gun control, typically ranging from a general dislike of what is seen as government interference in private affairs to taking umbrage at being compared with the people willing to shoot up a school to a fundamental belief in the correctness of the ideas expressed by the US Constitution.

The problem is that everyone on both sides is so sure that their way is correct and that the other side is willfully getting people killed that whenever the topic is brought up, everyone immediately defaults to an incredibly hostile bristling against the (real or imagined) incoming slights.

We can still buy guns in Australia, I've got friends that go shooting. I'd limit the guns allowed to banning the sale of semi automatic and automatic weapons. A limit of 5 guns per person, having ammo and the guns kept in separate locked boxes with a metal health check and history of violence/criminal activity check before the registration of a (mandatory) gun licence.

This is pretty much exactly what we have in the States. The only difference is that (in most states) there's no limit, semi-automatics are legal to purchase and you don't generally need to keep the ammo and gun in different containers.

Having a limit of guns per person is kinda silly though, to be perfectly honest. Anyone that's going to shoot up some place isn't going to be carrying around more than 1 or 2. Guns, especially the rifles typically used for that kind of thing, are big, unwieldy things and carrying more than a couple is pretty much impossible if you want to be able to actually use one.

So when I become Obama The President, not much in the way of guns will change then.

I think you overestimate how much power the President has

I'd introduce America to socialism They would love it. I'd also pass an executive order to desolve all the laws that make the congress undemocratic. Republicans would hate me so much they'd burn effigies of me.

 

[Snotnarok]

What's the purpose? Too many hurtful memories there? Most of the parents probably don't know what the inside of the school looks like anyway, you know, where the tragedy happened anyway.
Wasting millions of dollars on memories that will fade in the next 5 years anyway, that's just ...weird. Maybe I'm jaded but I don't see a new building changing anything, it's potentially more insulting to the people who died their, others trying to forget their lives.

 

[Agayek]

I'd introduce America to socialism They would love it. I'd also pass an executive order to desolve all the laws that make the congress undemocratic. Republicans would hate me so much they'd burn effigies of me.

Actually, both major parties would love you forever. They're both very, very protective of the status quo, and the only divergence from such they will tolerate is an increase in government power. As long as you can disguise your socialist plan by not using any language that implies "socialism", you'd be lauded as a visionary.

It's rather retarded, but the political system in the US is pretty fundamentally broken at the moment.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I'd introduce America to socialism They would love it. I'd also pass an executive order to desolve all the laws that make the congress undemocratic. Republicans would hate me so much they'd burn effigies of me.

Actually, both major parties would love you forever. They're both very, very protective of the status quo, and the only divergence from such they will tolerate is an increase in government power. As long as you can disguise your socialist plan by not using any language that implies "socialism", you'd be lauded as a visionary.

It's rather retarded, but the political system in the US is pretty fundamentally broken at the moment.

Ha, taxes for the rich would skyrocket, and yes government control would too, I'd buy industry and have it government controlled. Everyone would be equals, paid similar wages and things would be free because taxes would pay for it, no matter if you work or not. Until I got assassinated by some dickhead who would pervert the system and make it a dictatorship.
Marx my words.

 

[MCerberus]

Actually this is a good chance for them to build a facility that doesn't model itself after prisons. Large windows, more open, all the things most schools aren't (and this is one of the reasons the public school system is failing. You can't keep yelling "you're special" while treating people like prisoners. doesn't work). This has nothing to do with the shootings but would be a good idea.

It's about as likely as a unicorn farting enough gold to pay off the national debt though.
edit- You heard me, Butt Stallion. America needs you.

 

[soren7550]

Well, I cant find any information on it, but the school might be old such that renovating may cost almost as much (and still have the "psychological" problem) as building a new one.

From what I could figure out from the school's website, it's not even that old. It only had information on the place dating back to 2011.

So yeah, they built themselves a brand new school for grades K-4, and vote to demolish the place just over a year later.

possible, but unlikely. First of all new schools are pretty rare. Most places are using schools built shortly after WW2 due to the baby boom. Newtown's population as of 1940 was 4,000 people, by 1980 it was 19,000. Now it is 28,000.

Nor do the pictures look like its from 2011. It looks more like 60's or 70's architecture.

EDIT: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/inside-sandy-hook-elementary-school/1772307/

school was built in 1956, so the building is a bit long in the tooth so to speak.

EDIT 2: Apparently it will cost just as much to renovate as it will to build a new school.

http://newtownct.virtualtownhall.net/Public_Documents/NewtownCT_BBoard/042BD08D-000F8513.0/SHES%20Building%20QA-5-1.pdf

"Analysis of the renovate vs. build new by the Advisory Committee showed that costs to renovate this 56 year old building, bring it up to code, eliminate the portables, make it energy efficient, provide necessary safety features, and more, generated a cost almost at the same level of new building construction."

can we all stop jumping on the "americans are stupid" bandwagon now?

Eh, like I said, that's what I was able to gather from the Sandy Hook site, and I wasn't able to find anything dating back 2011.

And I find that iffy that it'd cost the same to remodel it as it would to rebuild. Shit, I find a lot of stuff there to be iffy.
- Why would the school need 'portables' (presumably this means the shipping crates that that go by the name 'mini schools' here) when there's less than 500 students and the school appears rather big for the grades it teaches?
- How come they haven't been bringing the school up to regulations over the years? It's located in a well off neighborhood, so how come they haven't done anything sooner?
- Why is it only the town's residents get to decide what to do with the money? The school is gonna be paid for with taxpayer's dollars, so shouldn't they get a say in the matter? I mean, I'd imagine that they wouldn't be too pleased with them tearing down a (seemingly) perfectly good school just to build a new one right on top of the old.
- Why is $50 million being dumped onto this one school? I mean, yeah, I know why, but I'd imagine that there's a whole lot of schools in the state that need the money a lot more than they do.

Sorry if I'm going off the rails here, tired and my head kinda feels like it's being squeezed (stupid anxiety and weather).

 

[Gormech]

In my opinion, it is a collasal waste of money. The funding could have been used to better improve the conditions within the current building and having a new school build in the place of the old one will remain a memorial to the survivors, thus defeating the purpose of building it in the first place. The extra attention will do nothing but promote future incidents as would-be shooters go for their chance in the spotlight but whenever the idea of limiting media coverage of something comes up, the whole thing flips over into a freedom of speech argument. Frankly, news organizations are making a fortune by drawing this stuff out and in the process, promoting it to happen more often. Everyone keeps watching it and giving them views though so I guess we're all to blame.

Also, calling it now: There's probably gonna be some lunatic trying to copycat when the new building gets up and running.

For all the people trying to turn this into a gun-control argument. Please just stop. Bombs, poison, firearms, blades, and other forms of killing are all easy to get ahold of regardless of government intervention. People with guns are gonna make any fight to restrict them useless by sheer number alone and it's a source of money so lawmakers are gonna be split regardless.

 

[xmbts]

I think it's a bit much but at the same time I can see why a parent would be hesitant to send their kids into a place infamous for a bunch of children being murdered.

So I don't really know what to think I can see where both sides are coming from.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I wish they did something about the gun thing instead. But then people get so defensive about their right to own them.

Do you guys REALLY think there are no Americans who support gun control? Because then this will blow your goddamn mind: I'm American, and I support gun control. Frankly, I don't think anyone should own anything bigger then a pistol, and even that should be fucking hard to get.

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that my country is ruled over ,and largely populated, by ignorant, stubborn, borderline-insane cunts. But please, don't insult me by grouping me in with them just because I had the misfortune of being born here, and because I don't have the money or means to leave. I mean...It's kind a big place, guys. There are a lot of people. We absolutely do not just agree on fucking everything. I can't believe I even have to EXPLAIN this.

Well I'm nonplussed. All I said was that people get pretty defensive on the subject, and here you are, getting pretty defensive on the subject.

 

[Agayek]

I never read up much on the sandy hook thing but all of the tea baggers I had forgotten to unfriend from facebook were shouting about how sandy hook was using lots of pre-loaded pistols. Of course, I wouldn't put it past em to be lying through their teeth for personal gain at the expense of the lives of other people's children (this is america after all), but I gave them the benefit of the doubt

I was predominately speaking about rifles, especially the hunting variety, which is the weapon of choice for the vast majority of mass shootings. Probably because they have an effective range longer than 15 meters. Pistols just aren't very good at distance shooting.

It's irrelevant either way though. According to wikipedia, Lanza used a rifle belonging to his mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting

Ha, taxes for the rich would skyrocket, and yes government control would too, I'd buy industry and have it government controlled. Everyone would be equals, paid similar wages and things would be free because taxes would pay for it, no matter if you work or not. Until I got assassinated by some dickhead who would pervert the system and make it a dictatorship.
Marx my words.

The existing parties would hate you for the bolded bits at least. If you manage to seize enough power for them though, they may well forgive you for it, especially if it involves pouring money into projects that really don't need it but you want to rack up the debt anyway.

 

[Saelune]

I dunno, I can undersand the feeling that may have made them do it. While technically its still the same place, the idea that a dead child may have laid where I walked (if I was a student) would creep me out. They chose it though, so its not like it was some government scam.

 

[Ryotknife]

Well, I cant find any information on it, but the school might be old such that renovating may cost almost as much (and still have the "psychological" problem) as building a new one.

From what I could figure out from the school's website, it's not even that old. It only had information on the place dating back to 2011.

So yeah, they built themselves a brand new school for grades K-4, and vote to demolish the place just over a year later.

possible, but unlikely. First of all new schools are pretty rare. Most places are using schools built shortly after WW2 due to the baby boom. Newtown's population as of 1940 was 4,000 people, by 1980 it was 19,000. Now it is 28,000.

Nor do the pictures look like its from 2011. It looks more like 60's or 70's architecture.

EDIT: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/inside-sandy-hook-elementary-school/1772307/

school was built in 1956, so the building is a bit long in the tooth so to speak.

EDIT 2: Apparently it will cost just as much to renovate as it will to build a new school.

http://newtownct.virtualtownhall.net/Public_Documents/NewtownCT_BBoard/042BD08D-000F8513.0/SHES%20Building%20QA-5-1.pdf

"Analysis of the renovate vs. build new by the Advisory Committee showed that costs to renovate this 56 year old building, bring it up to code, eliminate the portables, make it energy efficient, provide necessary safety features, and more, generated a cost almost at the same level of new building construction."

can we all stop jumping on the "americans are stupid" bandwagon now?

Eh, like I said, that's what I was able to gather from the Sandy Hook site, and I wasn't able to find anything dating back 2011.

And I find that iffy that it'd cost the same to remodel it as it would to rebuild. Shit, I find a lot of stuff there to be iffy.
- Why would the school need 'portables' (presumably this means the shipping crates that that go by the name 'mini schools' here) when there's less than 500 students and the school appears rather big for the grades it teaches?
- How come they haven't been bringing the school up to regulations over the years? It's located in a well off neighborhood, so how come they haven't done anything sooner?
- Why is it only the town's residents get to decide what to do with the money? The school is gonna be paid for with taxpayer's dollars, so shouldn't they get a say in the matter? I mean, I'd imagine that they wouldn't be too pleased with them tearing down a (seemingly) perfectly good school just to build a new one right on top of the old.
- Why is $50 million being dumped onto this one school? I mean, yeah, I know why, but I'd imagine that there's a whole lot of schools in the state that need the money a lot more than they do.

Sorry if I'm going off the rails here, tired and my head kinda feels like it's being squeezed (stupid anxiety and weather).

im not an architect, building inspector, or civil engineer but ill take a stab at it.

Building codes have changed a lot (at least for residential up here in the north) in the past 50 years. Hell, it seems to change on a yearly basis. I think this may be a difference in how building codes are implemented in US compared to elsewhere. For one, old houses don't have to be kept up to code IF they were built before the change was made. For example, a lot of houses in my neighborhood had laundry chutes, which are illegal. But there are still there because the law was passed after those houses were built and so they are now "grandfathered" in. Americans don't like laws applying retroactively (plus I believe that is largely illegal).

Now, that's residential. Don't have a clue about commercial/industrial. But other than getting rid of asbestos, ive never heard of older schools updating itself to new codes. Because the building codes seem to change so much, its impossible to stay current for more than a few years.

As for portables, this is the first ive heard of portable classrooms. But a school that can handle 500 K-4 students doesn't seem out of place in a town of ~30,000. Not to mention, when the school was built the town population was exploding.

As for the money, its being presented as a "gift" from the state. Honestly this is probably just political posturing to score goodwill points for the local politicians. Although, even if it wasn't, if we let all of the taxpayers in a state choose what project gets funded in X town, then either no project will get funded because people want the money in their town/city or the most populous gets all of the projects.

Also, as of right now the school has been unused since the shooting. All of the students have been transferred to a nearby town school, but that is not a permanent solution. As for why it costs that much, welcome to government projects. Nothing the government does is cheap. There is a reason why government contracts are considered lucrative as companies can get away with charging 3-4x more than usual and the government wont care. This is actually one of my big gripes with expanding government powers/responsibilities. The US government has its strengths (in terms of public sector/domestic fields), but doing things efficiently and competently are not them.

Even something that sounds as simple as switching from imperial to metric in one department (NASA) would cost them nearly their entire budget.

 

[Something Amyss]

Classic American way of avoiding real issues. The entire country is immature. They think like 12 year olds. It's not gonna solve anything. It's not gonna fix anything. It's just going to cost more.

Nuh Uh!

But seriously, it amazes me that anyone thought this was a good idea. It's middle ground in the most worthless sense.

 

[chiggerwood]

Classic American way of avoiding real issues. The entire country is immature. They think like 12 year olds. It's not gonna solve anything. It's not gonna fix anything. It's just going to cost more.

Absolutely. I wish they did something about the gun thing instead. But then people get so defensive about their right to own them.

Actually I'd say it's less of a gun issue and more of a mental health care system issue. The mental health care system is what failed. He was supposed to be going to a mental hospital two days after the day of the shooting, but he went off before they could have him in treatment. My question isn't about the availability of guns, but why if it was deemed necessary to put him in a mental hospital did they wait so long. I am mentally ill myself (Bipolar disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder) and as a mentally ill individual I find myself horrified of this country. What if I break? Will I be able to get the help I need before I take the Hemingway express out of this life? unfortunately the answer is: Probably not. We need to stop focusing on guns and start focusing on the completely broken mental health care system in the U.S. That's where the solution lies.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Ha, taxes for the rich would skyrocket, and yes government control would too, I'd buy industry and have it government controlled. Everyone would be equals, paid similar wages and things would be free because taxes would pay for it, no matter if you work or not. Until I got assassinated by some dickhead who would pervert the system and make it a dictatorship.
Marx my words.

The existing parties would hate you for the bolded bits at least. If you manage to seize enough power for them though, they may well forgive you for it, especially if it involves pouring money into projects that really don't need it but you want to rack up the debt anyway.

I'd cut back on Americas military to save America from debt, I'd make wall street pay back what they did to the economy as well. I'd be such a good leader.