Nintendo Dominates Black Friday
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You want overhyped mediocrity. Your definition is CoD and Halo.Atmos Duality said:
You want superb feats of creative level design and fantastic single player/offline experiences. Look at Mario Galaxy 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby's Epic Yarn, and basically every other big Nintendo franchise.
Seriously, can you name 5 games on PS3/360 (I only own a 360) that don't revolve around shooting or slicing up enemies in bland and uninspired environments? I'm not a 5 year old- I'm past the point where I think violence= cool and fun. Portal....Portal is leaps and bounds ahead of any game I've played on 360. It's the only game where level design seems to have been at all a focus of the developers...the only one that I would rank up with Zelda, Metroid, and Mario.
I would seriously put Limbo and Banjo-Tooie (two XBLA games- one of which is an N64 title) before Halo: Reach, Black Ops, or Fallout 3/NV on a list of best games on the console, and I would play Mario Galaxy 2 above Mass Effect or Bioshock. (which are my #2 and #3 spots for $60 games for the console) I understand that this is just my opinion. There are plenty of great games on 360, and lots on PS3 that I've never even played, but I really don't understand why Nintendo constantly gets all the shit they're getting. I think everyone should agree that they're an amazing developer of both hardware and software. (IMO, the best of both)
Case in point. This man obviously doesn't own a Wii or doesn't own a soul. "Half-ass recreations" of age old games? (Looks at Halo:Reach, RDR, and Black Ops) Yup....360 has none of those! Galaxy is completely original, Other M is completely original, Epic Yarn is completely original....even Twilight Princess and Donkey Kong Country Returns are more valid and progressive sequals than most games on 360....by far. AND THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR 25 YEARS!!!!Sir John the Net Knight said:
This response is quite long. I apologize in advance.
And I own one.
Personally, I think the argument of "Nintendo has only released the same 3 games for 20+ years now" is exaggerated. Certainly, the franchises of Mario, Zelda and Metroid have been around for a long time, but that claim only works if you start talking about the last 10 years, not 25.
Metroid has maybe two games that fall under that notion, and they're directly contiguous (Metroid Prime), but that would be like complaining about how Half-Life 2: Episode 1 was too similar to Half-Life 2: Episode 2.
Zelda has a few: Link's Awakening vs the Oracle Games, which Nintendo didn't even develop; Capcom did.
Mario...ugh. This is where the claim is legitimate. But at the same time, there's so much stuff with Mario's name on it that it boggles the mind.
If you want a Nintendo franchise that *IS* nothing but the same exact game year after year, it's Pokemon.
Also, Their first-party titles are indeed top-grade coding. No questioning that. IMO, the only real competition in the rest of the industry lies in Valve, Epic Games (despite overuse, the Unreal 3 engine is a truly excellent piece of software) and Id Software.
However, there is measurably better hardware out there with great design space.
But the rub is in using that design space effectively. The Dreamcast was years ahead of its time, but the costs of developing on it and weak market presence meant that the PSX and N64 (and later, PS2) were just better platforms for the market.
The Gamecube might have been a good piece of hardware in its day, but it couldn't hold a candle to the PS2's massive good-games library because few developers, besides Nintendo, took advantage of it.
The Wii is just a Gamecube with one potential improvement in terms of design space: The pointer. Until Wii-Motion-Plus, the Wii-Mote was literally just a wireless Gamecube controller with all the buttons remapped to waggles (and now subject to lag). Twilight Princess proves this directly.
By far, most of the games on the Wii are shovelware titles. The remaining few after that are gimmicks. I can count on one hand how many titles actually use the motion controls in a convincing manner.
So to me, in practical terms, the Wii is just a shitty Gamecube. Yet it dominates the market. Poetic.
The Wii is a disappointment of a system to me, but the same is also true of the PS3, PSP, and Xbox 360.
The only system that seems to have been adopted properly is the DS, whose design space is infinitely better than any system out there. The combination of stylus and traditional buttons allows for a huge variety of games, even if the graphics are dead last compared to everything else on the market. But even that limitation can spur creative work-arounds; especially noticeable in an industry choking to death on the costs of presentation.
While I agree that Call of Duty and Halo are indeed that, I reserve the right to define my own opinion, thank you very much.Electrogecko said:
Mario Galaxy 2 didn't impress me enough to keep playing past the first day or so. I've never been a fan of Donkey Kong, and holiday shopping has my budget limited to gifts for my friends and family, so no Epic Yarn for me.
Nope. Though this makes the Wii look better in comparison, I still think it sucks.
And I own one.
Try Shadow Complex on the 360. It's a tribute to Super Metroid's superb level design available on Xbox Live Arcade, and a great game overall.
My guess is because people perceive that Nintendo has been doing this since the 80s?
Personally, I think the argument of "Nintendo has only released the same 3 games for 20+ years now" is exaggerated. Certainly, the franchises of Mario, Zelda and Metroid have been around for a long time, but that claim only works if you start talking about the last 10 years, not 25.
Metroid has maybe two games that fall under that notion, and they're directly contiguous (Metroid Prime), but that would be like complaining about how Half-Life 2: Episode 1 was too similar to Half-Life 2: Episode 2.
Zelda has a few: Link's Awakening vs the Oracle Games, which Nintendo didn't even develop; Capcom did.
Mario...ugh. This is where the claim is legitimate. But at the same time, there's so much stuff with Mario's name on it that it boggles the mind.
If you want a Nintendo franchise that *IS* nothing but the same exact game year after year, it's Pokemon.
Their hardware is solid, but not the best.
Also, Their first-party titles are indeed top-grade coding. No questioning that. IMO, the only real competition in the rest of the industry lies in Valve, Epic Games (despite overuse, the Unreal 3 engine is a truly excellent piece of software) and Id Software.
However, there is measurably better hardware out there with great design space.
But the rub is in using that design space effectively. The Dreamcast was years ahead of its time, but the costs of developing on it and weak market presence meant that the PSX and N64 (and later, PS2) were just better platforms for the market.
The Gamecube might have been a good piece of hardware in its day, but it couldn't hold a candle to the PS2's massive good-games library because few developers, besides Nintendo, took advantage of it.
The Wii is just a Gamecube with one potential improvement in terms of design space: The pointer. Until Wii-Motion-Plus, the Wii-Mote was literally just a wireless Gamecube controller with all the buttons remapped to waggles (and now subject to lag). Twilight Princess proves this directly.
By far, most of the games on the Wii are shovelware titles. The remaining few after that are gimmicks. I can count on one hand how many titles actually use the motion controls in a convincing manner.
So to me, in practical terms, the Wii is just a shitty Gamecube. Yet it dominates the market. Poetic.
The Wii is a disappointment of a system to me, but the same is also true of the PS3, PSP, and Xbox 360.
The only system that seems to have been adopted properly is the DS, whose design space is infinitely better than any system out there. The combination of stylus and traditional buttons allows for a huge variety of games, even if the graphics are dead last compared to everything else on the market. But even that limitation can spur creative work-arounds; especially noticeable in an industry choking to death on the costs of presentation.
Fair enough.Atmos Duality said:
I really think you should give Galaxy 2 a chance. It's definitely better than the first one and only improves and gets more difficult as you progress. I've always loved DKC.....deliciously challenging 2d platforming with one of the best soundtracks of all time (especially the 2nd one) and the new one doesn't disappoint. Retro Studios continues to impress me.
I was extremely interested in Shadow Complex when I first heard about it, downloaded the demo on day 1 and loved it, but (for some reason) I still haven't gotten around to purchasing it. I will though.......absolutely 100%.
I think most of the people who criticize Nintendo are simply insecure. I don't think there's any credibility to the argument "Nintendo releases the same game over and over" at all. (except for Pokemon....and Mario Party) Even the most similar games in their lineup (Metroid Primes, Ocarina of Time vs. Twilight Princess, Mario Galaxy 1 vs. 2, the original DKC's) have more advancements between them than 99% of the sequels coming out today. I think people confuse their "don't let any franchise die" attitude for releasing the same game over and over. On top of that, Nintendo has had plenty of new IP's in the last 10 years and has about 25 different franchises running. If every Zelda game and every Mario game is the same, then just about every game on 360 is the same.
When I said they were an amazing hardware developer, I was referring to their consistent innovations (I know it's cliche and over-stated) to game control, design, and feedback. Whether people like it or not, motion control will be integrated into every next-gen console, and it's because of Nintendo. I hate that word "gimmick." It's thrown around so much on these forums with no real comprehension that it literally makes me lol. If motion controls and stereoscopy are gimmicks, then so are analog sticks and rumble. Gyroscopes and accelerometers both give the user another level of control without detracting anything. Yes there are few games that make good use of it, but the ones that do excel for it. There is true value in having a gyroscope as well as the standard button layout in the same controller- just go play through Epic Yarn or New Super Mario Bros. Wii.
Thank you for noticing that touch screens indeed add a lot of creative and control possibilities to games.....people just said it was a "gimmick" until the Iphone came along.
Well, on this site, a lot of that mentality can be attributed to Yahtzee.Electrogecko said:
Some (ok, MANY) people have yet to grasp that when he projects his rage, he's doing it for hits, which in turn, leads to more traffic for the Escapist, who in turn is paying Yahtzee.
Presumably, all (ok, MOST) parties get some laughs and go home happy.
However, if he were as serious as he acts in those videos, then he must be one truly depressed man by now; and I don't really see that.
Well..some of those are contestable. Especially Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy. Twilight Princess...I did not really enjoy all that much compared to Ocarina of Time. Most of the problem stems from both pacing issues and predictability problems. The environments are top-notch though, and it looks stunning for a Gamecube title.
I'll try to give Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 another go, but I honestly could not get into the game again; it felt like I was replaying parts of Mario 64 all over again, and that's precisely the sort of complaint being filed here.
This is my proverbial "Lemon Test" for Stagnation (vs religion, but you know):
Great as the game is, if it too closely resembles something "better" in the player's mind and it's from the same developers, then that's probably a sign of stagnation.
When talk about hardware, I talk about performance and practicality. Nintendo is great at that, but I've seen better hardware profiles in gaming (especially late 90s PC peripherals. Lots of weird/cool stuff there).
Not just power, but how it's arranged.
But I will say this: Nintendo's first-party hardware is, if nothing else, reliable.
I have a hand-me-down Gamecube controller that has been *HORRIBLY* (there aren't enough ways on the Escapist to emphasize that) abused by Wavedashing lackwits for years..yet the stick alignment still centers properly, the trigger buttons still spring and all the face buttons function fine.
I'm the sort of guy who used to take his controllers apart to fix them. Nintendo's craftsmanship is among the best, but only as long as it came from them.
I'm all for expanding design space, but if you wanted to know what one of the #1 killers of would-be great games is, it isn't graphics. It isn't sound.
Right under bad marketing and shitty coding, it's poor controls.
The Wii is the first generation mass-production console to use motion controls (though certain private entertainment venues have been using motion sensing via lasers for some time now, they aren't exactly common, or cheap).
After a couple of years, I figured I would forgive the Wii. It needed some time to hit its stride, and based on the crazy sales numbers, I figured that would happen.
But no. Nobody wants to actually use these motion controls for anything other than novelty.
For most developers, the controls are a crutch used to distract the player from what is otherwise, and inferior game.
Hence the term "Gimmick controls".
Yet as overused as that term is, that's what these controls are currently used for.
Among my hobbies, I do try my hand at game design. Or theory at least because thought is free (and talk is cheap).
The random musings on controller design theory...
For traditional console controllers, you can feasibly expect the average player to be able to manage four maybe five inputs at a time (MAYBE). That is, two analog sticks/D-pad, a main "action button", a secondary action button, and maybe a trigger effect (Metroid Prime does all of this).
That's great and all, but that is all you get when you design for a traditional console.
The Wii's controls...well. The pointer is the biggest practical addition. Everything else is just a remap of a traditional controller, sadly. Shake leftDown for C-Right, etc.
But a Stylus pad can introduce variable controls. You can write on it. You can draw a line across it. You can draw polygons on it. You jump between points on it (controllers can't do that without a categorical system or menu).
You can practically add a mouse to a handheld by doing this, which is no gimmick.
And best of all, you can do this by overlaying the controls onto the game itself.
If motion controls are trying to capture that utility, they have a long way to go.
That's great and all, but that is all you get when you design for a traditional console.
The Wii's controls...well. The pointer is the biggest practical addition. Everything else is just a remap of a traditional controller, sadly. Shake leftDown for C-Right, etc.
But a Stylus pad can introduce variable controls. You can write on it. You can draw a line across it. You can draw polygons on it. You jump between points on it (controllers can't do that without a categorical system or menu).
You can practically add a mouse to a handheld by doing this, which is no gimmick.
And best of all, you can do this by overlaying the controls onto the game itself.
If motion controls are trying to capture that utility, they have a long way to go.
I think Yahtzee's hilarious, even when he's downright nuking a game that I love. I know that he actually enjoyed Mario Galaxy 1+2....he said recently that they would be some of the few games that he wants to replay at some point in his life. I never thought that the games felt at all like Mario 64 or Sunshine. For better or for worse, they are much more linear and revolve more around platforming than the hide-and-go-seek type puzzle solving of the old games. Most people I know that dislike the game do so not because it's too similar, but because it's too different- because it seemed to throw out everything that we have come to expect from a 3d Mario game in favor of a more structured and straightforward level design that makes it feel more like the 2d games.Atmos Duality said:
In response to your section on controllers, one could argue that the Wiimote pointer can be used in the same way that a touchscreen can. It's not quite as intuitive, but it can be done. I think you'd agree that Metroid Prime 3 controlled better with the same mechanic as Metroid Hunters did on the DS....but this could simply be because it was more comfortable.
Epic Yarn is, I think, the best argument for the gyroscope to date. In the tank and fire truck sequences, the canon and water hose are aimed by tilting the Wiimote left and right while jumping and firing are done with the face buttons and navigating with the d-pad. It makes having multiple layers of control incredibly intuitive, responsive, accurate, and fun, in a way that wouldn't be possible on a 360 controller. The aiming feature would have to be done with the right analog stick, which on top of being less comfortable and accurate, would force every other action to the shoulder buttons if they were to be done simultaneously. New Super Mario Bros. Wii uses the gyroscope in a similar way for controlling some platforms and other on-screen apparatuses while simultaneously navigating your character. This makes for some awkwardly intriguing and challenging moments- it's kinda like trying to pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time, and adjusting to it and improving is highly rewarding. If I understand correctly, the PS3 controller can be used in the same way, and if so, I'm quite surprised we haven't seen more games that incorporate it and push it's potential.
While that's true of your opinion, my point was that the anti-Nintendo crusade seems to originate with several episodes of Zero Punctuation, and spread from there via the fanbase.Electrogecko said:
I saw a similar trend regarding the newer Final Fantasy entries after Noah Antwiler (aka, The Spoony One) destroyed Final Fantasy 8 in his 9 part epic.
Yahtzee and Spoony are both fucking hilarious (huge Spoony fan here), but their word isn't the gospel truth, yet several people seem to act like it is.
Actually, I allude to that point at the very end. The pointer can be used towards that purpose (the Wii's start-up menu does this very thing). I just think the Stylus does it better because there are fewer points of failure (no wireless signal, for starters).
Of course, the stylus controls are probably better for handhelds.
Well, that's because Sixaxis kinda sucks. From my experience, it's very wonky about when it wants to work, sometimes failing to register properly even when you hold it perfectly level.
Either that, or I tried it on a busted controller.
